Suggestion: Code of Conduct for Lingerine and Nude Organised Shoots

[vince123123]

I'm not sure who died and made you God to say that organised shoots are "reinstilled as a learning platform". All along in CS there are different types of organised shoots - so much so that there are even now separate forums for learning workshops and pure "non-learning shoots".

I am sure there are experienced photographers in club snap who do own/share studios of their own (I have come across several famous photographers lurking around the forums). They can organise, plan and conduct the shoot, who knows, they can even do this on a part time basis!

For those who don't want to learn about photography, they can always go for TFCDS or hire a model. Organised shoots should be about learning and not goggling over models (which has disturbingly been the case). The function of organised shoots should be reinstilled as a learning platform.

 

[vince123123]

No offense to you, but apparently you have not seen works from these "organised shoots" that you deride time and time again. You need more exposure before you comment.

From the way the organised shoots are churning out portfolios for these photographers, it makes it very hard for models to want to work with them (no offense).

 

[fotoudavid]

0ne post from me:

I will need to earn at least $300 to cover me expenses to guide the newbie of 5. If only $100, better sleep at home.

 

[night86mare]

For those who don't want to learn about photography, they can always go for TFCDS or hire a model. Organised shoots should be about learning and not goggling over models (which has disturbingly been the case). The function of organised shoots should be reinstilled as a learning platform.

i am not going to ever tire of pointing this out,

it is both a case of supply and a case of demand. if there are models who are willing to lower their dignity to supply their bodies for the eyes of goggling photographers.. then there will be chances for goggling photographers not serious about photography to participate in such shots.

it works both ways. if you berate the community and insist that the entire onus is on the photographers, that the ball always lies in our court.. or in the clubsnap admin's courts, or just males in general.. then open your eyes. age is no defense for avarice and delusions of grandeur. how many models do you know are genuinely serious about pursuing a modelling career? or getting that new prada bag they saw?

more than just educating models about their rights, i think they should also be equally educated about their responsibilites. and the same should go for every single photographer. they all have responsibilties and rights, and these should not be crossed, or abused by any party, on any side.

also, i do not understand the proposal to convert every shot into a workshop. all logistic issues aside, how can you be serious about this and say that this should be done with a straight face? i fear you are really too idealistic.

and last but not least, what makes you think the presence of a mentor, is going to solve the issue? if i were a despo despo photographer, i would simply go for the shots, take a few shots to show the mentor, just halfhearted nonsense will do, then spend the rest of the shoot snapping what i want to snap and pretending that i'm trying "creative angles".

 

[scandal599]

I am sure there are experienced photographers in club snap who do own/share studios of their own (I have come across several famous photographers lurking around the forums). They can organise, plan and conduct the shoot, who knows, they can even do this on a part time basis!

For those who don't want to learn about photography, they can always go for TFCDS or hire a model. Organised shoots should be about learning and not goggling over models (which has disturbingly been the case). The function of organised shoots should be reinstilled as a learning platform.

Okay...assume that is the case. As Foutoudavid pointed out, he will charge $300 for a group if 5, dunno if he means individually, or as a group. If there are experiencd photogs out there and who are at the same time reading this, please give a quote within reasonable market expectations of what you will charge for 1) mentoring, 2) studio costing and 3) any other conditions you will want to have?

Blase, inane statement bordering on a justification that people who just want to shoot can hire a model or do TFCDs. For you Averral, is that a statement of fact, or is this going by your judgement as far as your view of the scene is? What if I am a student on a project for say fashion design, that does fall into the above categorisation as well??

Again my challange to you is as I have posted before in this thread, and I still have yet to see you reply head on apart from skirting and sidestepping my challange. If you want to organise a shoot as a learning platform, then do it and prove your detractors wrong. As it is how you organise I don't bother. Just be sure that whatever you have mentioned in terms of advocacy of the guidelines, code of conduct and what not is adhered to.

Enough of talk already. Advocate what you said. Organise a shoot

 

[Rangefinder_fan]

Well, now that the discussion is somewhat civil, it's easier to see the shortfalls in this approach.
There are two broad groups that this is meant for:
a) photographers who want to improve
b) photographers who want to shoot girls wearing little clothes

Within group a, there will be newbies, people who upgraded, people who want to learn a particular skill. For this group, yes, a workshop may work. The cost details need to be looked into, so far the costs seem to be too low to make this worthwhile for the mentor / organiser.
For group b, haha, you cant make them do something that they do not want to. As Nightmare pointed out, you cant make turn every shoot into a workshop just because YOU feel that its the 'right' thing to do.

Am not sure of the stats, but I anticipate that at best, these 'workshops' will be an additional service offered by organisers. But the idea of workshops itself isnt inherently unique; there are organisations that do offer such courses. So where does that leave CS? Kinda right where we were after 10 pages right?

Address the supply side. Turn it off or cut it to a trickle and maybe the demand will go elsewhere.
Then again, maybe we should just conclude that one man's meat is another's poison; you cant dictate taste based on yourself, nor can you tell 'models' how to behave based on your own standards either, whatever those may be.

 

[fotoudavid]

Okay...assume that is the case. As Foutoudavid pointed out, he will charge $300 for a group if 5, dunno if he means individually, or as a group. If there are experiencd photogs out there and who are at the same time reading this, please give a quote within reasonable market expectations of what you will charge for 1) mentoring, 2) studio costing and 3) any other conditions you will want to have?

Blase, inane statement bordering on a justification that people who just want to shoot can hire a model or do TFCDs. For you Averral, is that a statement of fact, or is this going by your judgement as far as your view of the scene is? What if I am a student on a project for say fashion design, that does fall into the above categorisation as well??

Again my challange to you is as I have posted before in this thread, and I still have yet to see you reply head on apart from skirting and sidestepping my challange. If you want to organise a shoot as a learning platform, then do it and prove your detractors wrong. As it is how you organise I don't bother. Just be sure that whatever you have mentioned in terms of advocacy of the guidelines, code of conduct and what not is adhered to.

Enough of talk already. Advocate what you said. Organise a shoot

As a group, need to charge at $300 so that my lightings, aircon, rental and transport to studio are covered, of course will guide the newbies ard. That is for an hr, bigger group cannot handle. Of course, some other places will charge higher due to different tecnique, skills and also, rental cost.

By the way, $300 is the minimum, cannot be less then that, else really waste effort.

 

[vince123123]

Heheh, and add a model mentor to guide the model as well, since we are talking about having a quality shoot where there is a photographer mentor to guide the photographer.

Okay...assume that is the case. As Foutoudavid pointed out, he will charge $300 for a group if 5, dunno if he means individually, or as a group. If there are experiencd photogs out there and who are at the same time reading this, please give a quote within reasonable market expectations of what you will charge for 1) mentoring, 2) studio costing and 3) any other conditions you will want to have?

Blase, inane statement bordering on a justification that people who just want to shoot can hire a model or do TFCDs. For you Averral, is that a statement of fact, or is this going by your judgement as far as your view of the scene is? What if I am a student on a project for say fashion design, that does fall into the above categorisation as well??

Again my challange to you is as I have posted before in this thread, and I still have yet to see you reply head on apart from skirting and sidestepping my challange. If you want to organise a shoot as a learning platform, then do it and prove your detractors wrong. As it is how you organise I don't bother. Just be sure that whatever you have mentioned in terms of advocacy of the guidelines, code of conduct and what not is adhered to.

Enough of talk already. Advocate what you said. Organise a shoot

 

[scandal599]

As a group, need to charge at $300 so that my lightings, aircon, rental and transport to studio are covered, of course will guide the newbies ard. That is for an hr, bigger group cannot handle. Of course, some other places will charge higher due to different tecnique, skills and also, rental cost.

By the way, $300 is the minimum, cannot be less then that, else really waste effort.

Thanks for the info.

$300 an hour...Averral, how much time will advocate for such a shoot in proposal?
Baed on what David has said as a benchmark, what is your cost to profit ratio and secondly from a shooters standpoint, what is the cost to time ratio that is benefical to us as newbies and seasoned shooters alike?

 

[fotoudavid]

Heheh, and add a model mentor to guide the model as well, since we are talking about having a quality shoot where there is a photographer mentor to guide the photographer.

For this i agreed.

Oh, my last post.

 

[g-khoo]

i am not going to ever tire of pointing this out,

it is both a case of supply and a case of demand. if there are models who are willing to lower their dignity to supply their bodies for the eyes of goggling photographers.. then there will be chances for goggling photographers not serious about photography to participate in such shots.

I wouldnt go so far as to say the models are lowering their dignity, but it is true that when there is a demand, there will always be supply. And indeed, one would be surprised at the proportion of models and photographers alike who do not take their work seriously - but who can blame them? Afterall, its just a hobby to most.

As nightmare has mentioned, how many of the models here, in the context of CS, actually want to pursue a professional modelling career? Most of them are just using the photoshoots as a means of supplementing extra income. And here we have supply.

To quote mattlock in one of the threads lost somewhere - the danger lies not with the ones who post regularly and in fact are the so-called lurkers and GWCs who induldge themsleves in photoshoots involving SYTs and want no more than to happily oggle and snap away as they please. And since they remain in the shadows, how are we, or the mods for that matter to take action on them when we're just chasing shadows?

Also I might have missed this out, but arent there already existing workshops going on similar to the ones Averal proposed? - To quote, Knowledge Bowl and Studio Space are offering photography workshops for studio portraits.

While i understand Averal's stand that we should look after the interests towards young and impressionable models. One must also take note that no one owes you any debt of care and concern. You are essentially your own master or mistress. You are largely responsible for your own well-being.

This boils down to one core point as nightmare mentioned:

Educating the models and photographers alike so that they may take the necessary precautions. The admins and mods are to play a supporting role in this, not the primary role. In the end its still up to themselves.

However, as some have already said, a good number of these models, and photographers do not care to be educated or find it too troublesome. Who are we then, to enforce it upon them, when they do not choose to help themselves.

For those who do: there are threads started by Ejun and Averal herself on information for new models etc etc

Even if there arent, there's always google

 

[TheQuestion]

0ne post from me:

I will need to earn at least $300 to cover me expenses to guide the newbie of 5. If only $100, better sleep at home.

thanks fotoudavid for validating what i said earlier!:thumbsup:

 

[mrleech]

Wow, so fast already 10 pages.

I guess the issue about moderating the organisation of the shoots is out of the window. Anyway, I see no reason why CS should get involved as well. The forum is, and only is, a platform for sharing of ideas and maybe more. CS would be required to step in if they feel that the platform is misused. Please do not forget, most of us do not pay to be a member and contribute to the survival of the server. vBulletin is not free also. I have taken up moderator role in the past and now as an admin elsewhere, thus I am fully aware of the restrictions of the decisions made as well as the moral obligations to the members to ensure that the platform they are on is a sound one. Kudos to them for such fast response and reaction for many issues running around the forum. They also have their own lives to lead, managing CS may be just one of their passion/purpose.

Now, for professional photographers/models, time is money. There may be more intrinsic value for doing something, but my thought is that the main focus is still bread and butter. Making such a enforcement of organisation of a shoot, endorsed by the admins/mods of CS, is totally not feasible. If I am the one with the money, I will decide how things are run and not by someone who thinks it will just work and then push everyone to do it. Yes, ideas and suggestions are good. But how feasible? If it is thrown back, means it is not feasible. Why & how is it not, it is up to your own research to find out.

Unless someone can convince a studio owner to use his empty studio slots for a short shoot, perhaps he may just indulge at a cost. But definitely no one will want to spearhead this ideal for no purpose. Perhaps I may be still to new to the photography scene, so please feel free to correct me if my viewpoint is wrong.

 

[CYRN]

To quote mattlock in one of the threads lost somewhere - the danger lies not with the ones who post regularly and in fact are the so-called lurkers and GWCs who induldge themsleves in photoshoots involving SYTs and want no more than to happily oggle and snap away as they please. And since they remain in the shadows, how are we, or the mods for that matter to take action on them when we're just chasing shadows?

Also I might have missed this out, but arent there already existing workshops going on similar to the ones Averal proposed? - To quote, Knowledge Bowl and Studio Space are offering photography workshops for studio portraits.

While i understand Averal's stand that we should look after the interests towards young and impressionable models. One must also take note that no one owes you any debt of care and concern. You are essentially your own master or mistress. You are largely responsible for your own well-being.

This boils down to one core point as nightmare mentioned:

Educating the models and photographers alike so that they may take the necessary precautions. The admins and mods are to play a supporting role in this, not the primary role. In the end its still up to themselves.

However, as some have already said, a good number of these models, and photographers do not care to be educated or find it too troublesome. Who are we then, to enforce it upon them, when they do not choose to help themselves.

For those who do: there are threads started by Ejun and Averal herself on information for new models etc etc

Even if there arent, there's always google

Thanks for the post...

This is why I said that Averal suggestion is not feasible.... unless the community as a whole agrees to it and self-moderate...in that case dun need such suggestion already..rite?

The bottom line... if models themselves chooses the easy way out... then let them be aware that there's the risk... else...go register themselves in one of the more reputable model agency...problem solved...cuz agency will also implement some form of control and their clients (should be) better then then GWCs here.

 

[TheQuestion]

Wow, so fast already 10 pages.

I guess the issue about moderating the organisation of the shoots is out of the window. Anyway, I see no reason why CS should get involved as well. The forum is, and only is, a platform for sharing of ideas and maybe more. CS would be required to step in if they feel that the platform is misused. Please do not forget, most of us do not pay to be a member and contribute to the survival of the server. vBulletin is not free also. I have taken up moderator role in the past and now as an admin elsewhere, thus I am fully aware of the restrictions of the decisions made as well as the moral obligations to the members to ensure that the platform they are on is a sound one. Kudos to them for such fast response and reaction for many issues running around the forum. They also have their own lives to lead, managing CS may be just one of their passion/purpose.

Now, for professional photographers/models, time is money. There may be more intrinsic value for doing something, but my thought is that the main focus is still bread and butter. Making such a enforcement of organisation of a shoot, endorsed by the admins/mods of CS, is totally not feasible. If I am the one with the money, I will decide how things are run and not by someone who thinks it will just work and then push everyone to do it. Yes, ideas and suggestions are good. But how feasible? If it is thrown back, means it is not feasible. Why & how is it not, it is up to your own research to find out.

Unless someone can convince a studio owner to use his empty studio slots for a short shoot, perhaps he may just indulge at a cost. But definitely no one will want to spearhead this ideal for no purpose. Perhaps I may be still to new to the photography scene, so please feel free to correct me if my viewpoint is wrong.

no you're right. that's the irony. you're newer to the scene that she is and you already can see the fallacy in her logic while she's still got her head up in the clouds. averal if u really think any photog is just gonna charge minimal price to put something like what u want together u're dreaming. ask your pwn bf and see what he sez. you'll see that Im right.

 

[Del_CtrlnoAlt]

Before we all forget.

I'm still waiting for the official apology from AverRal for her accusation on the moderation and adminstration team of Clubsnap.

Also, designerwhere, i know in which position you are standing, but please get your facts right before posting as well. Where in my post is defamatory to her?

To the rest, esp vince123123, night86mare, TheQuestion, please bring your personal feuds out of this thread...

 

[TheQuestion]

Before we all forget.

I'm still waiting for the official apology from AverRal for her accusation on the moderation and adminstration team of Clubsnap.

Also, designerwhere, i know in which position you are standing, but please get your facts right before posting as well. Where in my post is defamatory to her?

To the rest, esp vince123123, night86mare, TheQuestion, please bring your personal feuds out of this thread...

eh dca i've been reminding her that she has yet to address that defamatory comment she made against u all earlier...also i'm not feuding with her but i am poking holes in her logic.

 

[vince123123]

DCA: Check your pm on the issue relating solely to me.

On the other issues of greater interest to the community, I'm also wondering where the apology is (Averal), and where the defamatory accusations are (designerwhere).

Before we all forget.

I'm still waiting for the official apology from AverRal for her accusation on the moderation and adminstration team of Clubsnap.

Also, designerwhere, i know in which position you are standing, but please get your facts right before posting as well. Where in my post is defamatory to her?

To the rest, esp vince123123, night86mare, TheQuestion, please bring your personal feuds out of this thread...

 

[Zeisser]

It takes two to tango in this case model and photographer. Clupsnap is just a platform and
not a physical club which is being managed by a Committee where there are indoor facilities
like a fully equipped studio for indoor shoots.Only then a set of Code of Conduct as institutionalise in the Constitution of the Club is applicable.

The crux of the debate here for a set of Code of Conduct lies squarely on the organisers of
such shoots. Clupsnap merely is the facilitator here to such organisers.

Unless it's a strict guideline or perhaps a gazzetted rule from the authorities that such and such are required for shoots then it will apply. Just my passing 2cts.

Chill people.

 

[vince123123]

I'll go so far as to even say that Clubsnap is not a facilitator of such organisers. They are a mere medium by which organisers can advertise their shoots; akin to what a mod has said, a classified as in a newspaper. As such, no liability or duty exists.