Suggestion: Code of Conduct for Lingerine and Nude Organised Shoots continuation

[TheQuestion]

Photography isn't just about model shoot.

I've so far only done, 3 model shoot (if i can remember correctly), 1 was invited to offset a service i've done. Another one is model invite, 3rd is a impromptu shoot. All was at least 1 or 2 years ago... None i've paid, and none is after i am a moderator.

So far, to me, i'm more geared towards product and landscape, so with or without model shoot doesn't really matter to me.

I'd say, learn how to operate the camera instead of how to capture.

Learn the features of a camera instead of just jumping into the shooting game... i see alot of people who goes for shoots, questions often asked by members here... whats the aperture, whats the shutter speed... all these are basic fundamentals of camera features, the lenses and such... if you still need to ask all these, then you don't understand the camera... so why waste money going for shoot or even waste model's time for TFCD and such.

There is so many things to shoot and learn upon. Is model shooting a major aspect of photography? To me, honestly, i don't like to shoot humans... i admit, i sucks in shooting poses... cos its just not one of those things i shoot and i say hey, its good... maybe to some camera-man, yes, its their only hobby... i'd say, let them be.

Like ortega have said, if need practise, can always look for friends and relatives to practise shooting. The festive season is coming, there is tonnes of people waiting to get shot and receive the pictures of them in their nicest outfit. Isn't it more rewarding to shoot them than to shoot a bunch of models who may not be cooperative and may even tarnish your reputation in the midst of it.

there's also the issue of photogs who go for these sessions and machine gun their shots hoping something good will stick as well. Not advisable in my opinion unless u're doing sports where frame by frame matters.

 

[TheQuestion]

DCA: I agree with you, my first interest is not really taking portraits of models or even anyone for that matter, I much prefer natural settings, scenic views and animals. Though I recall reading something someone wrote to a newbie in last month or so (sorry for not quoting who, the words stuck not the writer) when they suggested,

"Spend your first year just shooting everything you can, at the end of the year you can work out what you love to shoot" (paraphrased)

But since the issue was "sleaze" and how to minimise it from this community I wondered how newbies, if at all possible, can be encouraged to learn the "right" way, if indeed there is one?

Darren: WOW I agree this would/could be quite a drastic step. Personally I prefer a more educational route than a banning one, since as you said, models and photographing such is a natural part of photography and being inclusive is how a community should act.

One question would (a) still allow model agencies to advertise and thus not prevent such shoots but at least (hopefully) bring them to a more "professional" level?

agencies don't advertize for shoots like u suggested. its an organizer who gets models from that them puts the session together. Model agencies don't.

 

[aselley]

agencies don't advertize for shoots like u suggested. its an organizer who gets models from that them puts the session together. Model agencies don't.

Thanks for that correction

 

[Del_CtrlnoAlt]

DCA: I agree with you, my first interest is not really taking portraits of models or even anyone for that matter, I much prefer natural settings, scenic views and animals. Though I recall reading something someone wrote to a newbie in last month or so (sorry for not quoting who, the words stuck not the writer) when they suggested,

"Spend your first year just shooting everything you can, at the end of the year you can work out what you love to shoot" (paraphrased)

But since the issue was "sleaze" and how to minimise it from this community I wondered how newbies, if at all possible, can be encouraged to learn the "right" way, if indeed there is one?

Darren: WOW I agree this would/could be quite a drastic step. Personally I prefer a more educational route than a banning one, since as you said, models and photographing such is a natural part of photography and being inclusive is how a community should act.

One question would (a) still allow model agencies to advertise and thus not prevent such shoots but at least (hopefully) bring them to a more "professional" level?

well, this forum isn't a school to teach students about learning the 'right' way. I doubt there is a photography school which will guide them to the so called 'right' way... its afterall each person's preference.

We can't just go about telling everyone what's right and what's wrong, most of the people in this forums are adults, they should be responsible for the things they do. If you have noticed, joining this forum is not an obligated or by law compulsory ruling, so members are free to join, and of course, free to go, without obligations* (with terms and conditions).

These newbies, in one way or another, are only newbies to the forum, or newbies to the cameras, but they aren't born yesterday or maybe in recent years (below age 10?). So isn't it their own responsibility for their own well-being? Otherwise, isn't it the parents who should be monitoring their children's behaviour? Are the moderators & administrators going to have the social responsibility to ensure that all the members are well taken care of like primary school teachers?

 

[vince123123]

I highly endorse this statement. As I have stated on many occassions before, CS is not here to do the jobs of people to think for themselves, or of parents to baby these people.

So isn't it their own responsibility for their own well-being? Otherwise, isn't it the parents who should be monitoring their children's behaviour? Are the moderators & administrators going to have the social responsibility to ensure that all the members are well taken care of like primary school teachers?

 

[Del_CtrlnoAlt]

I highly endorse this statement. As I have stated on many occassions before, CS is not here to do the jobs of people to think for themselves, or of parents to baby these people.

vince, u rss feed my posts? how come whenever i reply, you will pop up of nowhere to reply so fast. :sweat:

 

[ortega]

Ok, so one question might be, how do (we) as a community that wants to promote good photography encourage newbies to not take the "cheap" route and rather take a more "expensive" option and attend workshops and/or spend on real models?

And while I know the ideal answer is to say that they should do so as a hurdle to actual improvement, people do tend to think in terms of dollars esp. in the current economic climate.

by using the $$ value to convince them of course

what do you get out of a unguided paid shoot of an inexperienced model
lets say you pay $40 to attend this waste of time and HDD space shoot.

you would need to do it say .... 4 times to learn and get the same kind of quality images
that you can achieve by attending a $150 workshop

so the "waste of time and HDD space" shoot would cost you a total of $160
that is #10 more and many hours of time and many GBs of HDD space more than one
guided workshop with experienced speaker and models.

what do you think?

 

[vince123123]

Lolz never leh, I don't even know how to use RSS properly, much less RSSing specifc posts. I didn't even know I always pop out of nowhere for your posts haha - probaby a coincidence.

Lets not OT lah, must set good example

vince, u rss feed my posts? how come whenever i reply, you will pop up of nowhere to reply so fast. :sweat:

 

[aselley]

So isn't it their own responsibility for their own well-being? Otherwise, isn't it the parents who should be monitoring their children's behaviour? Are the moderators & administrators going to have the social responsibility to ensure that all the members are well taken care of like primary school teachers?

Now I am lost.

I thought this thread was for us as a community to discuss ways in which to limit the "sleaze" and look into a code of conduct for Lingerie and Nude Shoots? If it is as you say the responsibility of each individual to look after their own well being and not the responsibility of the mods and admins, why are any steps being taken to limit any form of photography or advertisement for services?

 

[aselley]

by using the $$ value to convince them of course

what do you get out of a unguided paid shoot of an inexperienced model
lets say you pay $40 to attend this waste of time and HDD space shoot.

you would need to do it say .... 4 times to learn and get the same kind of quality images
that you can achieve by attending a $150 workshop

so the "waste of time and HDD space" shoot would cost you a total of $160
that is #10 more and many hours of time and many GBs of HDD space more than one
guided workshop with experienced speaker and models.

what do you think?

I agree. People will respond if they think something is better value and of a better return on an investment.

 

[vince123123]

I would say that different people have different objectives, plus different people have different skill levels.

The group who pays S$40 may not necessary attend what they call a 'waste of time' shoot. For example, a skilled photographer may simply choose to join a S$40 shoot for a "low-stress" "chit-chat" fun shoot. There is no pressure or stress to learn or perform, and they treat it more like a fun outing rather than any real step towards photography-godlike status. These people may not want the hassle of contacting/negotiating with models, gathering people etc, and just want to pay one sum, and enjoy themselves.

By contrast, those who join a S$150 shoot with full equipment and guidance and everything, are already set in learning mode and expect much more from the shoot, as well as expecting himself to commit much more to the shoot to make his money's worth. Not everyone requires the instruction, or the learning, or even the stress to make his money count.

Hence I would say that one or the other is not superior or inferior, but merely to address a different type of audience looking for different things.

by using the $$ value to convince them of course

what do you get out of a unguided paid shoot of an inexperienced model
lets say you pay $40 to attend this waste of time and HDD space shoot.

you would need to do it say .... 4 times to learn and get the same kind of quality images
that you can achieve by attending a $150 workshop

so the "waste of time and HDD space" shoot would cost you a total of $160
that is #10 more and many hours of time and many GBs of HDD space more than one
guided workshop with experienced speaker and models.

what do you think?

 

[vince123123]

He is saying that there are steps to be taken, yes, but this must also be borne in context that CS is not a policeman/parent/government/nanny state - hence the level of steps taken would be balanced accordingly.

For example, the "drastic steps" put forth by Darren may indeed not be considered "drastic" if CS is a policeman/parent/government/nanny state". He only couched it as "drastic" simply because CS is not intended to baby the people here. DCA merely elaborated on why CS is not here to baby people and they or their parents should be responsible for themselves or their charges. This is my personal view of how I interpret the current comments.

Now I am lost.

I thought this thread was for us as a community to discuss ways in which to limit the "sleaze" and look into a code of conduct for Lingerie and Nude Shoots? If it is as you say the responsibility of each individual to look after their own well being and not the responsibility of the mods and admins, why are any steps being taken to limit any form of photography or advertisement for services?

 

[aselley]

He is saying that there are steps to be taken, yes, but this must also be borne in context that CS is not a policeman/parent/government/nanny state - hence the level of steps taken would be balanced accordingly.

For example, the "drastic steps" put forth by Darren may indeed not be considered "drastic" if CS is a policeman/parent/government/nanny state". He only couched it as "drastic" simply because CS is not intended to baby the people here. DCA merely elaborated on why CS is not here to baby people and they or their parents should be responsible for themselves or their charges. This is my personal view of how I interpret the current comments.

Thanks for clearing

 

[Del_CtrlnoAlt]

Now I am lost.

I thought this thread was for us as a community to discuss ways in which to limit the "sleaze" and look into a code of conduct for Lingerie and Nude Shoots? If it is as you say the responsibility of each individual to look after their own well being and not the responsibility of the mods and admins, why are any steps being taken to limit any form of photography or advertisement for services?

CS is afterall a platform for photographers to meetup. later on, we let the models come in, hence the shoots.

Things that are free are often abused, likewise, when we provided a platform for models, its now open to abuse.

Let me relate to you what happened...

We provided a place for models to advertise their shoots, then models came, they offer TFCD, then they expected to be paid... Did CS ever expect them to pay us maybe an incentive or commission? No. Then we have alot of these models wannabe coming in to post and upping the threads by the hour, almost like a competition. So we said only 1 bump a day... some made a hoo-haa... but afterall, its still free to use, and open to abuse... Then on came some who wanna offer lingerie for good money... when things get nasty, people point finger at us...

So should we in the first place just stop all these? Then is it fair to those who abide to the rules? Its only some people breaking the good faith that is making all of us have to change the rules. We expect all to be adults, if anything does happen, don't cry foul and blame everyone except yourselves... nobody forces these people to do lingerie, not even the photographer, the photographer afterall is being offered the chance from the advertisements.

So lets say, if we stop all model shoots, no TFCD, no Paid Shoot... will it solve the fundamental problems? Its still a 'self slapping' issue whereby the people who cries foul are commiting the fouls. The rest of us are just being dragged into the pitholes unknowingly...

 

[aselley]

Thanks for the heads up, the background. Appreciate it

 

[pfurr]

I would say that different people have different objectives, plus different people have different skill levels.

The group who pays S$40 may not necessary attend what they call a 'waste of time' shoot. For example, a skilled photographer may simply choose to join a S$40 shoot for a "low-stress" "chit-chat" fun shoot. There is no pressure or stress to learn or perform, and they treat it more like a fun outing rather than any real step towards photography-godlike status. These people may not want the hassle of contacting/negotiating with models, gathering people etc, and just want to pay one sum, and enjoy themselves.

By contrast, those who join a S$150 shoot with full equipment and guidance and everything, are already set in learning mode and expect much more from the shoot, as well as expecting himself to commit much more to the shoot to make his money's worth. Not everyone requires the instruction, or the learning, or even the stress to make his money count.

Hence I would say that one or the other is not superior or inferior, but merely to address a different type of audience looking for different things.

i'm jumping into the fray too late as usual, always cannot find where the action is!

but vince, i agree with what you say here. in the end it really has to do with the demand. i used to think abit like averal, that shoots should be non-sleazy, must protect women's rights, lets all go burn bras RARR!!. hurhur. as you could see in my previous postings in the original sex sells thread.

BUT THEN. in the end, i've learnt that its really all a matter of where people stand in terms of their photography.

there are alot of hobbyist photographers out there with little vision (i dont mean this in a demeaning sense) in terms of art direction, the fashion of the shoot and they dont know much about posing and stuff. they get the camera just so they can shoot, and produce an image that will make them feel all warm and fuzzy inside. the details of liasing with the model on clothes are probably beyond them (look nice can already la!) and thats why there is and always will be the organised shoots and really, theres nothing wrong with that at all because this is what they want out of photography.

not everyone is like sir mattlock, where the image has to tell a story, drive a concept and is executed to the point. but we all know where we stand in terms of how much we want to learn, the images we want to produce and the way we will go about doing it.

i have been for organised photoshoots before and learnt that its just really not my cup of tea, having to jostle with other people and deal with the lack of freedom to dictate the terms of the shoot. but in the end, i understand that thats just me and i cant expect everyone to think like i do - that photography is an art. i suspect averal perceives photography like that and hence, there is a disconnect on her part on how come there are sleazy shoots in the first place.

 

[TheQuestion]

vince, u rss feed my posts? how come whenever i reply, you will pop up of nowhere to reply so fast. :sweat:

he stalking u la look over your shoulder! there's vince! :bsmilie:

 

[sORe-EyEz]

She can still use the PM function during suspension, thought you should know that... :bsmilie:

She can always draft a pm to us about her apology, and we will probably lift the suspension for her to post.

wah, seems like quite highhanded leh...

[ Moderator mode off ]

Personally as a photographer, i think we should be thinking of what we [the photographers] can do, instead of thinking of the posers.

put the money where my mouth is, & not in those cmi XMMs pocket! :devil:

 

[kira7812]

wow away from clubsnap and so many things happening.

Seriously i don't see the discussion on the need for the code instead it has become more of supply and demand issue. Are we going side track?:think:

Ok maybe i'm wrong, but please listen to what i have to say. The need for this code may not always be the best solution, why? it's always this saying, "it takes two hand to clap". you don't like the rule you leave and maybe later set some rules of your own or maybe no rules and ppl start joining you, and then trouble blew or maybe not, nobody knows.:dunno:

So it just goes all the way back to the individual, be it the model, photographer and so on. You just have to know what you are doing and what is your rights.

What maybe can be done is that to educate these new models and photographer what are the do's and dont's, example: photographer should not touch the models during these lingerine shot :devil:and likewise for the model to know that the photographer should not touch them. to avoid problems. But off course no hard and fast rules(just suggestion)

Maybe this such information on do's and don'ts can be posted on some where and the rest is up to the indivduals (can't control their actions),

We can't expexct the admin team to be looking out for us. Why? because we are not paying them and salary. So don't go round expecting the admin team to the babysitting the whole forum.:nono:

Ok that's all i have to say. have to go now to keep my little baby girl company

 

[Del_CtrlnoAlt]

wah, seems like quite highhanded leh...



put the money where my mouth is, & not in those cmi XMMs pocket! :devil:

high handed? most people say i am too soft already...

btw, i got some 5 cents coin i wanna dispose, open your mouth...