Buyers beware - HSMSigma

[meowme]

I read this thread with shocked that there are actually many people who doesn't mind been deceived. 5k vs 30k is a huge difference. Shutter count matters because electronics, sensors, etc can fail after certain amount of use. So if there are so many people who don't mind getting deceive the next time we all should advertise our 1yr old cam as 1day old and sell it at 90% the original price. 10% off for a "1 day old" cam is a mighty good deal ;p

TS, you are being kind to warn people here. Unfortunately, it seems like most prefer to accept twisted reasoning. So I really pity you but think it is pointless to put anymore energy here. It will only frustrate you in the end.

 

[CTN]

I will be very upset if a seller states that the shutter count is 5k when it fact it is 30k.
While it may not be a outright scam, it is still misrepresentation nonetheless.

 

[chikubang]

It always baffles me when there are people try to inform others about some bad sellers, there is a tendency that people will target on the TS instead of the seller.

Seller rated his camera 10-mint and the shutter count is like 30K. How can a camera be rated condition 10-mint when the shutter count is not that low. If that is the case, what is the point of seller accepting the rules (after reading the conditions ratings scheme)? Is it just for "show" or is it just an extra click on the mouse for the seller?

Isnt HSMSigma be responsible in his actions too? I doubt that was the first time HSMSigma sold his items on Clubsnap and that gives him no excuse to provide wrong information on his B/S thread.

It's so sad that trading in clubsnap has become so unpredictable, full of suspicions and lack of trust. Imagine yourself buying a camera, you have to bring your laptop to test for shutter count. You also have to look at every single details both on the exterior and the functionality of the camera. Oh well, it used to be a pleasure doing trading last time but now it seems that trading causes so much troubles and unhappiness.

 

[pinholecam]

To give the seller the benefit of doubt, we tend to underestimate the shutter count. Its a very large number that we won't keep track of mentally. If we only rely on the rolling picture number, it rolls over after 9999 (at least on my system). So if the seller was juggling a few cameras (its a back up as he mentions), he could well have missed that, looked at the current picture # and thought that was the actual shutter count.

 

[Crashout]

Dear Mr Moderator,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

If you hit the link you so generously supplied, http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6240508#post6240508, you'd notice the line "However, the shutter count information is available *only* on Canon DIGIC III/IV DSLRs". Unfortunately for me, the 5D is a digic 2 processor and cannot be checked by laptop/software. I had to send it in to CSC to check it.

To be honest, I do not see your post as being very fair. You have railed on me from the get go and not said a word about the seller.

No judge? You have already judged my post and found it lacking, hence your criticism.

So please explain what do you mean by 'I will closed the thread if it goes one way and out of line.". Do you mean that if all the replies say that I have been done wrong by the seller that you will close this post?

Caveat Emptor, I fully agree. I've already said "Well, buyer beware definitely applies here. I'll take it as a lesson learnt." in my original post. And my only disparaging remarks on this seemingly protected seller is "This seller is definitely not a standup guy so be wary if you are planning on buying something from him.". Just be wary...

And yes, I do stand by my use of the word 'scam'. The definition is "to swindle (someone) by means of a trick". Saying something is <5% used vs something that is 30% used is definitely a 'trick'.

Please read the Terms and condition in B&S carefully. ie Buyer Beware

No judge here.

Calling the Seller a scam is rather strong accusation (in fact uncalled for), after all you got the camera that work and at best it was mis representation of the shutter count. In fact you could have even check shutter count on the spot - there are numerous post on how to check shutter count - just do a simple search and you will find: one very recent on http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6240508#post6240508. When buying used items one need to do some homework on the buyer part too.

In all fairness I do not see any scam here.

The only lessons here for ppl reading this thread is how to check a camera when buying used one. Instead of "Beware of HSMSigma" or it may work against the TS and become a "Beware when selling to threadstarter"

I will closed the thread if it goes one way and out of line.

Will wait for seller to respond.

 

[Crashout]

Dear Mr Moderator,

Of all the replies I've read, yours has struck a nerve.

First of all, I have not played a 'he said, I said' game. I posted the ad, the receipt from CSC and the text logs. I refrained from posting the seller's cellphone and I refrained from name calling or vulgarities. If you look at the text log capture, I even waited a full 12 hours before posting, so it was not a rant-in-haste.

Your BnS TnC is buyer beware. Is not my posting but an extension of it? Wouldn't it be better that buyers are aware that such sellers exist in the BnS? That such sellers are named so that buyers who enter into transactions with them in the future go in with more caution?

If you deem it necessary to close this thread, then I'm afraid that it would be hard to take the BnS TnC seriously. How can a buyer beware if the buyer is not allowed to have complete information?

I went in without complete information. I learnt something from it. And now I am passing the information along. In fact, I am drafting a post on buying a 2nd hand 5D from the lessons I've learnt in the canon forum, but that would be a separate issue from what I learnt from buying from a dishonest seller.

 

[Submarine71]

Maybe the mod and the seller are good friends? I don't know? But look at the reply by mod....I doubt it is.

 

[nightwolf75]

Maybe the mod and the seller are good friends? I don't know? But look at the reply by mod....I doubt it is.

what are you insinuating?

chngpe01 is highlighting the fact that, as with all such cases, it is down to 'your word vs mine'. if anyone wants to make allegations, please back it up with provable facts because YOU are liable under the law if you make false accusations. CS is NOT going, nor legally bound, to take sides in any disputes unless it is a clear-cut fraud, to which our Admins will cache the threads involved for evidence to the police, provided YOU make a police report and furnish the report in person to our Admins.

there is a good reason why we don't want to have a sub-forum/thread for people to air their complaints because our Admin/mods cannot and will not police on your behalf if a deal go south.

 

[AbsolutKev]

firstly, the seller is a fraud, mods is say that bcos he lied bout the shutter count. if he stated 30k shutter, then he cant sell the cam for this price. the TS had given black n white proof for all to see. i thank the TS for surfacing this problem as its a sharing n a lesson to us all. we can learn from it rather than we ourselves experience n learn from it.

i myself deal a few times in BnS section. i feel that the seller has to double check the condition prior to post. i make the effort everytime i sell. thats y, if u c my previous post, all my item were sold without complain. many ppl are that honest too but not all.

bad experience cant be avoided. i got played out by buyers a few times, conned by seller once (SC said to be 30K but its 90K) and many last minute the buyer ask for discount after we agreed on the price (after agreeing with a buyer, i norm do not take anymore bids. even if the bid is higher).

so TS, this is the real world. there r ppl who r honest but there r ppl who are trying to get as much as they can from their sale, even if its lying.

if u wanna be safe then buy brand new. then there s warranty n all... but also if the shop want they can con u.... alamak, jus buy from canon n pay the RRP.... hehe...

 

[AbsolutKev]

firstly, the seller is a fraud, mods i say that bcos he lied bout the shutter count. if he stated 30k shutter, then he cant sell the cam for this price. the TS had given black n white proof for all to see. i thank the TS for surfacing this problem as its a sharing n a lesson to us all. we can learn from it rather than we ourselves experience n learn from it.

i myself deal a few times in BnS section. i feel that the seller has to double check the condition prior to post. i make the effort everytime i sell. thats y, if u c my previous post, all my item were sold without complain. many ppl are that honest too but not all.

bad experience cant be avoided. i got played out by buyers a few times, conned by seller once (SC said to be 30K but its 90K) and many last minute the buyer ask for discount after we agreed on the price (after agreeing with a buyer, i norm do not take anymore bids. even if the bid is higher).

so TS, this is the real world. there r ppl who r honest but there r ppl who are trying to get as much as they can from their sale, even if its lying.

if u wanna be safe then buy brand new. then there s warranty n all... but also if the shop want they can con u.... alamak, jus buy from canon n pay the RRP.... hehe...

but we also would like to hear from HSMSigma. mayb there is another part of the story.

 

[chikubang]

there is a good reason why we don't want to have a sub-forum/thread for people to air their complaints because our Admin/mods cannot and will not police on your behalf if a deal go south.

I think you have totally missed the point here. The reason why such threads are appearing is because there are an increasing number of dishonest sellers in clubsnap. I doubt TS is requesting the moderators to make any police reports or of any sorts. As what he had mentioned, the thread is served to inform and not a platform to complain.

Personally, I feel that as moderators, they shouldnt input their opinions because they are supposed to be impartial and fair. By saying "No judge here" , "In all fairness" and making his own opinions that kind of disfavour the TS, is rather ironic.

 

[WISHBONEASH]

for every complaints, there are always those "for" and against".
all i know is that there are certain sellers whom i will avoid, sometimes same sellers with different nicks, afore-mentioned being one of them? haha.

and the old adage "if it is too good to be true, then it is too good to be true."

but all said, csc admin should be more mindful of such sellers. just a careful run through will let you know who are the pro-sellers here. some even buy and sell the same items in the space of a few hours.

crashout, i feel for you. but that was one guy you should avoid.

 

[WISHBONEASH]

btw he is many guys in one, descriptions of items for sales are cut and paste in different posts by different nicks,

 

[Joelhlaing]

btw he is many guys in one, descriptions of items for sales are cut and paste in different posts by different nicks,

What do you mean by this? Are you saying that he is using multiple accounts ( clones ). If someone could prove it, it is liable to instant de-registration under T&C ( If I remember correctly).
I guess some more serious action is necessary for enforcing T&C in B&S section. It might erode good reputation of CS.
I once got infraction cuz I kinda insinuated in one of my thread to promote software piracy although I meant it as a joke. I learnt and never repeat.
Hope some black sheep are exposed and eliminated.

 

[canon freddy]

It is sad to note that many do not think much of a misrepresentation as important as the SC. No doubt it is difficult to check it for that model but shouldn't the seller check it before posting it as such? Perhaps he is banking on the fact that it is not possible to check on the spot that he took a liberty to state a tempting number?

Perhaps TS should have negotiated with seller based on the pro-rated price of a replacement.

 

[chngpe01]

The may be some points which I made earlier and may have missed and that it my bad and apology.

As for your name calling of the seller as "scam" in fact name calling is not tolerated in the Terms of Use in ClubSNAP.

Having said that I did not taken any action on the name calling on your part as I understand the circumstances. While you are free to stand on what you said about the seller as a scam, I am free to feel and state that such name calling is uncalled for. If seller is a scammer he would not even bother to get back or negotiate for a partial refund (less the one week use). Similar to my opinion of beware when selling things to you.


Nightwolf75 has explained that why my post and it is very simple - we have stated in this section for Buyers to Beware " Caveat Emptor" http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2738476&postcount=2


This B&S is for second hand goods and as much as the seller is responsible to state the condition etc of the good, the buyer has to do his part in checking, negotiate a deal and verifying the goods.

And this must be done over a "reasonable" amount of time. In this case, you took one week to get back to the seller - this is rather long a period (bearing in mind that 1 year has only 52 weeks).

The seller actually is willing to refund less the one week of "use by you as rental" ie less $50. He even stated in your text with him that if it is immediately he would have give full refund.

Is it not reasonable? and yet seller was labelled as a scam by you?

There was an option out for a settlement yet you did not accept it and call the seller a scam?

You did not even replace the shutter at all so you have not even spent the $270 and yet in your text http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6308570&postcount=1 you stated "It doesn't even cover servicing I paid. Shutter replacement cost 270 to be fair, I ask for 150 and take the loss .

You did not even replace or paid any for shutter replacement and yet you ask the seller for $150 (as a compromise) for that and take the "loss for Shutter replacement" From an onlooker, it can also be taken that the buyer (you ) is taking advantage of the situation and mistake the seller stated in his shutter count . You stated the shutter count is difficult to verify unless it is done by CSC, would it occurred to you that the seller is in the same position to verify and just made a foolish uneducated guess and hence misinterpretation?.

Again shutter replacement is a subjective as many members have mentioned why replace shutter at 30k when the shutter life is abut 100k. Did CSC advise a shutter replacement or you just wanted a new shutter.

Let me sum it (I stand corrected)


1. You could have contacted the seller, before proceeding to buy the batteries and spend the $ for the servicing, for a resolution. But you did not but took it for granted and now start to claim losses - seriously there will be no losses on your part if you do due diligence to contact the seller before committing the $

2. Buyer say give me back camera and I refund what you paid (less $50 for rental)

3. You say no. I paid 270 (in your text) , (I keep camera and you pay me $150 -implied)

As the seller did not want to reply, and you labelled him a scam and come and post. Reasonable?


Yes, the Seller is wrong on the shutter count (and by your definition a scam) . But from what I see it takes two to clap and I stand by it that, you are no angel either .

 

[chngpe01]

Maybe the mod and the seller are good friends? I don't know? But look at the reply by mod....I doubt it is.

I do take offense in this insinuation. If you don't know why post?

Observe CS term of use esp #1 http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63954

Warning given

 

[hotwork77]

Everybody please chill. ClubSNAP is a wonderful community to learn and share. Wrong words used in a moment of haste leads to a misunderstanding of a lifetime.

As chngpe01 pointed out and as I re-read the thread, misstating a shutter count could be due to genuine ignorance and the seller expressly agreed to take back the stuff and return the original sum minus $50 for the one week TS had the camera. Whatever reason for the delay is irrelevant to the seller.

Name calling consisting partly of allegations of fact and partly of expression of opinion and cause the other party to loose his repute in his community is a serious matter. We don't call a thief a thief unless we know that as a fact. Likewise, we can't call it a scam unless we know it as fact.

As I see it, the camera is in mint condition, no expressed scratch marks, no damaged parts that needed a replacement except for a battery that cannot hold the charge. Dust on sensor can be expected for a 2nd hand item especially after so many years.

Buying a 2nd hand camera and promised that it is in mint and expecting it to be like showroom condition is stretching the imagination a bit. Always buy it with a bit of salt. That's my 2 cents worth.

 

[lookforstuff]

It would sometimes help if people would read (and remember) what the TS wrote.

The seller actually is willing to refund less the one week of "use by you as rental" ie less $50. He even stated in your text with him that if it is immediately he would have give full refund.

Is it not reasonable? and yet seller was labelled as a scam by you?

There was an option out for a settlement yet you did not accept it and call the seller a scam?

You did not even replace the shutter at all so you have not even spent the $270 and yet in your text http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6308570&postcount=1 you stated "It doesn't even cover servicing I paid. Shutter replacement cost 270 to be fair, I ask for 150 and take the loss .

May I quote TS:

"Took the camera out for a spin over the weekend and found lots of dust spots on the sensor, and the battery wouldn't hold a charge. Well, its an old camera, so I would have expected that. No biggie, bought a new battery and decided to take the camera in to CSC for cleaning on Monday morning. Had them check if the mirror needed reinforcement as well and for the heck of it, decided to get them to do a shuttercount."

The costs for this are around 100. So return the camera with a new battery and a cleaned viewfinder, and another cash loss of 50$? So 150$ in addition to a week of trouble? Great deal! Rental? The person neither wanted to rent it, not did he want a camera with a shutter count of 30k. So you will say: keep the battery... But this is useless without the camera.

chngpe01, You are highlighting the rules of being nice and fair; Is it nice and fair to shout out loud in RED and BOLD, and even missing the facts?

HSMSigma has not done right here, I hope there is no doubt about it. And this is all this thread is about, to make others aware that what is written may not always be the truth.
Whether TS should have been less trusting from the beginning is a different story, and he does not deserve this damage just because he took what was written for the truth. It is not nice and fair to say that it is HIS fault as he trusted someone. It is simply a lesson learned. You may read the thread about Justin Yeo: http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=718411&highlight=beware+of+juice
In this thread, similar story, and not surprisingly the TS is the "good guy", the seller the bad guy, as seller also did "misrepresent".

Just a suggestion: I think a feedback mechanism for the sellers would be good. You can take a look at www.phing.com how feedback can be properly implemented into the B&S platform. I find this works great.
Andre

 

[chngpe01]

It would sometimes help if people would read (and remember) what the TS wrote.



May I quote TS:

The costs for this are around 100. So return the camera with a new battery and a cleaned viewfinder, and another cash loss of 50$? So 150$ in addition to a week of trouble? Great deal! Rental? The person neither wanted to rent it, not did he want a camera with a shutter count of 30k. So you will say: keep the battery... But this is useless without the camera.

chngpe01, You are highlighting the rules of being nice and fair; Is it nice and fair to shout out loud in RED and BOLD, and even missing the facts?

HSMSigma has not done right here, I hope there is no doubt about it. And this is all this thread is about, to make others aware that what is written may not always be the truth.
Whether TS should have been less trusting from the beginning is a different story, and he does not deserve this damage just because he took what was written for the truth. It is not nice and fair to say that it is HIS fault as he trusted someone. It is simply a lesson learned. You may read the thread about Justin Yeo: http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=718411&highlight=beware+of+juice
In this thread, similar story, and not surprisingly the TS is the "good guy", the seller the bad guy, as seller also did "misrepresent".

Just a suggestion: I think a feedback mechanism for the sellers would be good. You can take a look at www.phing.com how feedback can be properly implemented into the B&S platform. I find this works great.
Andre

1. Suggest you read again. missing fact on your part?
cleaned "viewfinder"? did I see "viewfinder" where you get the "viewfinder" cleaning part? get your facts correct -ie it is sensor not viewfinder (suggest your get your facts correct before coming in)
Your point of the $100 which the TS spent on battery and sensor cleaning (not sure where you pluck out the $100 from in this thread - in the first post the TS stated in the Text he spent "$70 to be able to use the camera" get your facts correct again ) is not what the TS has any issue:

Took the camera out for a spin over the weekend and found lots of dust spots on the sensor, and the battery wouldn't hold a charge. Well, its an old camera, so I would have expected that. No biggie, ......

Barking up the wrong tree are you? TS already say no biggie (ie it no issues with the battery and sensor cleaning)

Did seller asking the TS to return the camera with new battery? and refund all except $50? was it a fact? The TS can simply return the seller the camera less the new battery and get his refund less $50. Battery useless without camera? TS can sell off the new battery or buy other 5DMkII on the market here and use the new battery as a spare, what so useless? A week of waste time? Didn't the TS took the camera for a "spin"?

The point is that

1. the TS did not even replace the shutter and yet text the Seller that he paid for replacement of shutter.

2. Why replace the shutter at 30k ? when it is not even due? did CSC suggest a replacement of shutter?


Shouting? no not shouting, in fact I am trying to be fair to merely highlighting certain points that many ppl, including you seems to have missed out. Even that, did not work here as seen.

TS issue is the Shutter Count of 30k which seller claimed is <5K.

I have stated and will state again that the seller is wrong.

But neither is the buyer an angel.

I am not here to argue for the sake of arguing or to be a kaypo, but to be as fair as humanly possible as a mod to all parties.

I have put across my points, accept it or not as long as it do not cross the line of the Term of Use in ClubSNAP - this thread can continue. I will not be replying anymore as I have alot of things to do for this forum eg. leading the organizing of this event with the rest of the mods http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=134 (at our own expenses - not paid) as well as having our own family and work outside CS.

Have a good Sunday.