Who are we? What are you?

[forward]

Hello fellow photographers,

Everyone seems to be so serious in this discussion. I am amused reading the thread. On a softer mood let there be light and move on to show your pictures.

Here is one from me: Who am I shooting from this height? Am I shooting a commercial assignment? Why do I need such a tall tripod?

Title: Shooting Position
Effects done with PS

Cheer up folks,

 

[Stereobox]

Hello fellow photographers,

Everyone seems to be so serious in this discussion. I am amused reading the thread. On a softer mood let there be light and move on to show your pictures.

Here is one from me: Who am I shooting from this height? Am I shooting a commercial assignment? Why do I need such a tall tripod?

Title: Shooting Position
Effects done with PS

Cheer up folks,

brudder, dangerous lah! letting the cable hanging and running loose like that from that strobe :bsmilie:

 

[roygoh]

Somehow I cannot get myself to agree with you on the way you interpreted SS's comments.

No problem. I am used to that...

SS wrote: "Just show us photos of yours which you think are good, instead of denigrating others.......". Put in another way "do not talk bad about others, show us the good works you have done".

If you have quoted the entire sentense from SS, which says "The same could apply to your interest in upholding the standard of photography in Clubsnap. Just show us photos of yours which you think are good, instead of denigrating what others choose to call themselves", then your "put in another way" interpretation will not be that accurate. But again, I am used to that.

Pardon my grammar. Was never good at grammar.

But SS's statement appears to be past tense to me (or is it past perfect?). Not quite what you interpreted as "to produce better work" which is looking to the future.

I get the same vibes as vince123123 when I see the way the challenge was issued."

If you read SS's statement as a challenge then does it even matter if it is in past tense or future? Would it have made a difference if SS has written "If you want to uphold the standard of photography, go take some good photos to show us instead of denigrating what others choose to call themselves"? My guess is you will still read it as a challenge. I can tell you that I would still not read that as a challenge like you have perceived. So I think you are missing the point, and grammer is not the cause. Of course you can disagree.

If DP is concerned about upholding the standard of photography (if there is one, but I will talk more about this later), is he going in the right direction by ranting about what a group of photographers choose to call themselves? Say he manages to convince all those unqualified photographers (according to his standards) to stop calling themselves professionals, does it do anything to improve the standard of photograhy for both the real and self-proclaimed professionals?

If he want to do something more positive, and do that in CS for a start (since he is so passionate about this community as I read from his other posts), then what better way to do that than to share his work and help others improve?

Student, despite our disagreements in various areas, I feel that since you have started sharing your work, some members have been inspired by you and started appreciating portrait photography from a wider perspective. If you ask me, between DP and yourself, who has made a positive contribution to upholding the standard of photography, my vote goes to you.

I certainly do not think DP need to show his photographs to put forth his point about the "professionals". What I am more interested is his logic or reasons to be irritated by these "professionals".

And therefore I feel that asking DP for his photographs is not something I would do.

There is definitely no disagreement here. As SS has confirmed, he was not challenging DP, and he never meant that DP should first prove his worth (with his photographic works) before he is qualified to make such a comment. Since SS has clarified his position there is really no value in drilling down on his original post.

Since you are interested in DP's logic or reasons to be irritated by people he deemed to be unqualified but still calling themselves professionals, care to share your view on this?

You have your own set of expectations on professional photographers, as stated in an earlier post. To bring the discussion back on topic, my questions to you and the rest of members reading this thread are:

1. How would you react if someone who does not meet that set of expectations call themselves professional regardless?
2. Would you start a thread here to rant about that?
3. What would you do?
4. Would you agree that different people can have different expectations for professionals, so there is no universally accepted definition and qualification process?
5. Do you believe that there is some kind of performance index (like a stock market index) that measures the collective standard of photography among people who call themselves professional photographers, such that people with substandard work will degrade the index if they call themselves "professionals"?
6. Even if there is such an index, be it totally subjective to each observer, is there much value in protecting and upholding this index by restricting the people who can call themselves "professionals"?
7. What would you do to help uphold and improve the standard of photography in CS?

I know some are put off by long posts, but I believe those who are really interested in this topic would not.

Thanks!

- Roy

 

[roygoh]

To be fair, let me share my own views, along the line of questions I have listed above. I have some loose expectations on what a professional photographer is, but I don't believe that title has to be protected like some kind of official title, such as a Ph.D. If I have a Ph.D in some field of knowledge, I might be a little irritated if many people who do not have the same qualification start to attach that title to their credentials. However, a Ph.D is a formal qualification with specific requirements. If I have the real capability, then I will not be concerned by imposters.

So I really don't care if some hobbyist prefers to call himself a professional. It is only an unofficial title and it does nothing to degrade the perception of any other photographers, professional or not. At the end of the day, it is the work that counts, and if some ignorant customers were to be taken for a ride by such claims, it is mostly their own fault.

If I am passionate about doing a part in improving the standard of photography within some community, I would improve my own work, share my work and experience with fellow photographers, and help others to improve if possible and appropriate.

I am a full-time engineer, so I would not call myself a professional photographer by any standards. There were a period of time when I was taking wedding and concert photos and got paid for doing so, and a small portion of my work is probably of professional quality. However, I don't consider myself a professional so I will not make that claim.

 

[Pablo]

So some people might feel better if they call themselves "professionals". But you seem to feel worse if they do it - aren't you just as preoccupied with the word "professional", even if in a different sense?

In the end, why does it matter? What counts are results, not whether the respective person makes his/her living this way. "Professional" as an indication of quality or responsibility has little meaning in this day and age as many people who used the service of "professional" craftspeople like electricians, plumbers, etc. that produce shoddy work can attest.

I look at the newspaper in the morning or listen to the radio on the way to work, and there's so much utter bulls**t being spewed at the readers/listeners every day. Even news from the science scene get sexed up and distorted to grotesque extents. It's hard to believe people are so naive as to blindly believe all this crap (although I sometimes wonder when I see people regurgitate technobabble marketing speak in equipment discussions). There's so much nonsens around, why should anyone take the "professional" marketing label serious?

I agree totally with you that words have become meaningless through being tagged on to everything.

One example to me is the phrase, "state of the art".
I have been in electronics since the days of valves and grew up through transistors, IC's etc.

Back in the development days of integrated circuits, there was much awe at the craftmanship of design.
There was beauty etched into silicon so to speak, and the resulting performance of the chip was awesome.

Many of us would take a chip from inside its housing and look at it through a microscope and see the beauty and tallent in how the design engineer worked.
Often then you would find a signature hidden somewhere (we are talking small here, very very small).

Occasionally you would hear the words, "state of the art" to describe the beauty of craftsmanship in design".

Now days ..... "state of the art" steak knives, belt buckles, kitty litter etc.

Sorry if you don't get the above.
I feel advertising have jumped on not only this phrase, but many others to push sales of items or services, to the point that words, descriptions, phrases etc. have lost their meaning.

Cheers

 

[student]

So, guys, you're wrong. There was no challenge at all.

I am sorry that you can't comeback tothis thread. Yes I am sure you have many important things to do. Most of us have.

In actual fact, my feeling is that you were not issuing a challenge to DP.

But the way you phrased your words suggested you did. I was not the only person to get the impression. Vince123123 had the same vibes. A matter of appropriate usage of English, you said?

 

[student]

Since you are interested in DP's logic or reasons to be irritated by people he deemed to be unqualified but still calling themselves professionals, care to share your view on this?

You have your own set of expectations on professional photographers, as stated in an earlier post. To bring the discussion back on topic, my questions to you and the rest of members reading this thread are:

1. How would you react if someone who does not meet that set of expectations call themselves professional regardless?
2. Would you start a thread here to rant about that?
3. What would you do?
4. Would you agree that different people can have different expectations for professionals, so there is no universally accepted definition and qualification process?
5. Do you believe that there is some kind of performance index (like a stock market index) that measures the collective standard of photography among people who call themselves professional photographers, such that people with substandard work will degrade the index if they call themselves "professionals"?
6. Even if there is such an index, be it totally subjective to each observer, is there much value in protecting and upholding this index by restricting the people who can call themselves "professionals"?
7. What would you do to help uphold and improve the standard of photography in CS?

I know some are put off by long posts, but I believe those who are really interested in this topic would not.

Thanks!

- Roy

I am not put off my long post. But I find it difficult to write a reply without creating another long post! So I am going to summarise my thoughts and then answer the questions you post directly.

See my reply to SS. I do not think his intention was to challenge. That was my gut feeling. But to Vince123123 and I, it appeared that way.

Now to your questions.

#1 I could not be bothered the least bit by it. But that is me.

#2 Following #1, I would not. But I am not DP.

#3 Following #1 and #2, I would do nothing. Because in the end it achieves no change. But it is still a good exercise to think about issues.

#4 Absolutely! While there are no universal standards, it is obvious also that there are some "situations" that will have a universal agreement.

An example: Gong Li looks gorgeous. student does not! Well, I suppose if you insist, some may think that student may be gorgeous. But these will need to see a shrink! Or, an ophthalmologist.

#5 No. I think the 'standard" is set by the consumer. A "professional" in village "x" in Timbuktu may be considered very good if he produces trashy out of focus nonsense like student, and be totally acceptable. But in some "highly" sophisticated places, even John Clang may not be good enough!

#6 Not applicable. See #5.

#7 This requires another treatise itself. But it has just given me an idea which you might want to take up. Start another thread on this issue.

 

[ortega]

If I am passionate about doing a part in improving the standard of photography within some community, I would improve my own work, share my work and experience with fellow photographers, and help others to improve if possible and appropriate.

Clap clap :thumbsup:

 

[shinken]

I am not put off my long post. But I find it difficult to write a reply without creating another long post! So I am going to summarise my thoughts and then answer the questions you post directly.

See my reply to SS. I do not think his intention was to challenge. That was my gut feeling. But to Vince123123 and I, it appeared that way.

Now to your questions.

#1 I could not be bothered the least bit by it. But that is me.

#2 Following #1, I would not. But I am not DP.

#3 Following #1 and #2, I would do nothing. Because in the end it achieves no change. But it is still a good exercise to think about issues.

#4 Absolutely! While there are no universal standards, it is obvious also that there are some "situations" that will have a universal agreement.

An example: Gong Li looks gorgeous. student does not! Well, I suppose if you insist, some may think that student may be gorgeous. But these will need to see a shrink! Or, an ophthalmologist.

#5 No. I think the 'standard" is set by the consumer. A "professional" in village "x" in Timbuktu may be considered very good if he produces trashy out of focus nonsense like student, and be totally acceptable. But in some "highly" sophisticated places, even John Clang may not be good enough!

#6 Not applicable. See #5.

#7 This requires another treatise itself. But it has just given me an idea which you might want to take up. Start another thread on this issue.

student is not (gorgeous)?

LoL. that's a good one. Like you, I wasn't quite as fired up as DP towards the issue. Nevertheless, it does set some minds thinking at least. At least to me, one interesting (and perhaps even positive) point raised is through your gorgeous student vs gongli analogy. While there's no explicit universal standard, there exists an implicit and intangible notion of standard, that a tag carries. It would be (I'm note sure if it "is", or "will be") a real concern for the community, if we have a horde of sub-standard (let me rephrase that: horde of universally implicit and intagible notion of standard") self-proclaimed photographers who produce sub-standard (think student, instead of gongli... jk of course) photos.

The industry (photograhy that reaches the masses as a whole. whatever media and channels) is influenced very much by perception. I've heard on quite a few occasions, that the standard of photography in Singapore is not very high when compared to many countries in the world. I hear it from Singaporean photographers based overseas, I hear it from customers. I hear it from the average person on the street who had been exposed to overseas photography. True? I doubt so. I see great works from our folks time to time. But even if the implied and perceived standard does not apply across the board, the notion is such to some people. If we have more "sub-standard" stuff reaching the masses, badged as "pro" work, the notion will reach even more people.

Thus, I began to see DP's frustration, even if I don't feel as much as he does. Somehow the ideas doesn't quite settle, until I read the gorgeousness of student and gongli.

Oh yes, pardon my grammar, punctuation and tenses. I'm thus guilty of lowering the standard of my community...

(edited to clean up the gramamr a little...)

 

[Pablo]

student is not (gorgeous)?

I have not met student (any one have a photo :bsmilie: ), but the word can mean things other than looks.

Anyway... I have often looked at posts of pictures here at CS and thought Woooooow !!!
That is just Soooo good.
I have then thought inwardly, "I bet that guy is a professional and likes to share without making a point that he is a Pro".

Then I have thought about this "professional thingy" and .... YES, this guy is a professional, reguardless as to wether he makes a living out of it.

He is professional in photography. It is backed up by how many others comment on his/her work,
with comments such as... awesome, excellent series, you never fail to impress ... and so on.

As for "I've heard on quite a few occasions, that the standard of photography in Singapore is not very high when compared to many countries in the world".

Who is saying that ? ... are they from those other countries in the world ?

I have and still do get to see great photo's taken by Singapore photographers !!!!!!!!!!!!

If compared to say the USA .... there is a small matter of imballance of population.

Just my 2 shrimps on the barbie's worth.

 

[shinken]

As for "I've heard on quite a few occasions, that the standard of photography in Singapore is not very high when compared to many countries in the world".

Who is saying that ? ... are they from those other countries in the world ?

I have and still do get to see great photo's taken by Singapore photographers !!!!!!!!!!!!

If compared to say the USA .... there is a small matter of imballance of population.

Just my 2 shrimps on the barbie's worth.

Erm, just to reinterate, in case I get misunderstood yet again (not by you, but in case by others), that I've heard people - Singaporeans based overseas, Singaporeans and non-Singaporeans based in Singapore and overseas making that comment. I'm not saying everyone I know makes that comment, but I've heard such comments.

Of course, I know it for a fact that it's not true. It was meant to use to illustrate what perceptions and wrong notions can do. And these wrong notions and perceptions might be accentuated by "sub-standard" (think student vs gongli again) photos taken by those who tag themselves as "pros", whom the consumers associate with the general population of the producers of that standard.

Again, I'm not saying that's the reality. I said what I said to illustrate my understanding of where DP comes from. Not that I feel the same way (as a matter of fact I don't), but I can see where he's coming from.

 

[student]

student is not (gorgeous)?

I have not met student (any one have a photo :bsmilie: ), but the word can mean things other than looks.

OK, you asked for it!

And to further illustrate my point #4.

I present to you (tata!!!!!)

BEAUTY AND THE BEASTS! (4 BEASTS! To be exact! I need 4 to combat the ONE beauty!)

 

[ortega]

ooooh! what a long tongue you have there

 

[Pablo]

OK, you asked for it!

And to further illustrate my point #4.

I present to you (tata!!!!!)

BEAUTY AND THE BEASTS! (4 BEASTS! To be exact! I need 4 to combat the ONE beauty!)

Ahh, so you cross-dress.

I think I prefer you in the 1st pic :bsmilie:

Cheers

 

[student]

ooooh! what a long tongue you have there

Yes! Yes!

That is why I talk too much!

 

[student]

I think I prefer you in the 1st pic :bsmilie:

Do you know how much hardship I had to undergo, and how much torture I had to endure to create that "Intermammary Sulcus?"

 

[KNIGHT ONG]

This is a very very interesting thread by deadpoet ... :thumbsup:

Actually wanted to start reading from page 1 but my time wont alllows it ... :sweatsm:

I have been shooting longer than I would have known it .... :sweat: I am not full time photographer hence will not call myself Professional as it never been my main bread and butter ... I could only at most cited myself as an advanced amateur :bsmilie:

Been shooting for LianHe ZaoBao before when I was a student photographer ... later shoot wedding using manual SLR and now DSLR for events and some minor wedding shoots .. I am still learning and shooting and I likes to do it Professionally ...

 

[sammy888]

OK, you asked for it!

And to further illustrate my point #4.

I present to you (tata!!!!!)

BEAUTY AND THE BEASTS! (4 BEASTS! To be exact! I need 4 to combat the ONE beauty!)

"Professional" Cross Dresser? We changing the thread to difference topic or what? heheheh

 

[doug3fflux]

So some people might feel better if they call themselves "professionals". But you seem to feel worse if they do it - aren't you just as preoccupied with the word "professional", even if in a different sense?

In the end, why does it matter? What counts are results, not whether the respective person makes his/her living this way. "Professional" as an indication of quality or responsibility has little meaning in this day and age as many people who used the service of "professional" craftspeople like electricians, plumbers, etc. that produce shoddy work can attest.

I look at the newspaper in the morning or listen to the radio on the way to work, and there's so much utter bulls**t being spewed at the readers/listeners every day. Even news from the science scene get sexed up and distorted to grotesque extents. It's hard to believe people are so naive as to blindly believe all this crap (although I sometimes wonder when I see people regurgitate technobabble marketing speak in equipment discussions). There's so much nonsens around, why should anyone take the "professional" marketing label serious?

re the last statement, yes, there is alot of nonsense going around. why should we take that P-word seriously? why at all?

if im a client and im in a state of mind like Deadpoet, then all ill say to the photog is "show me your work, then I'll tell u if you're a Pr......."

 

[pointblankshots]

This thread's interesting... There's just different levels of professionalism we're talking... Too many genres of photography, so, to each its own... We have event photographer(weddings included, fashion photographers, corporate annual report photographers, commercial ad photographers, school pictures photographers.. Everybody to some point of time becomes a photographer... just at different levels really... It's not even down to how much one makes out of it...

I had a very personal experience about a year ago... I shot an fashion image on cover. So one fine day when I was window shopping past a borders, I saw this chap and girlfriend(apparently very into photography)... and was saying this exactly sentence.. ' That's Cedric's work', God damn... If only I had a vision like him, I'll do anything to work for him free of charge to steal some brain cells'.... and he went on and on and on singing the praises and even girlfriend said she'll dump him for me... Probably a joke anyway... and I'm just standing behind him!!! ...hearing every word he said... To me, it became an instantly uplifting of satisfaction and morale and it was this that I was working for... As photographers, we're all suckers for creditations...or at least I am... So much of me wants to make me tell him, 'You're looking at my work, and I'm Cedric Lim'... but nope, the fact is that it's always good to stay behind the scene and camera, besides I ain't any public figure too... Good work and delivery pays off in due time... Don't need to rush to be credited...

Moments later, another pick up the magazine and goes to him male buddy... This time he said, I don't know what's so great about this guy(me!!!), his images are so common, and if you give a camera, I'll shoot it anytime.... This time I swear I feel llike slapping the daylight outta him... Of course I didn't go on confronting, or rather respects everybody's decision whether I'm into my work or not.... perhaps he really saw something that he could have proved a point...

I always thought I did my best in my shoots, still having people gunning me down, with shitloads like I had a good DI person, good hair make up, good stylist...but remember this though, I've never did claim that the efforts were all mine... It's people photography, it's helluva team work in real time...

I sense the 'being irritated' from deadpoet. Here's how to go about it.... When I see a professional you know who shot something I like, I'll be be keen enough to learn something. It could be a mood, concept, anything at all, I could garner... When I see another professional who's work irritates the daylight out of me, I'll have a good laugh, and hope I won't see him in person...

It's always good to have big lenses, god-damn cameras with so many megapixels, and it's so easy mistaking one being a professional shooter... It just could be a sense of insecurity or rather, one just didn't know what Professional really meant... Seriously, when this person go back home, gets a chance to read his own created webpage, or threads that he claimed he was professional, trust me guys, this person is feeling so bad about it he can't even get to sleep, or even disgusted with himself for calling himself a professionally(spare me the details what 'Professional' meant technically)....

So cheers on ya deadpoet. Do not be disgusted really, have a good laugh too... people do improve though....everybody started being professional from somewhere....


PBS