Who are we? What are you?

[Deadpoet]

.....

The Draconian way, which I feel is the way you are leaning towards, is to set a strict qualification process for all and prohibit those who are considered as sub-standard from calling themselves photographers and maybe even restrict them from posting pictures until they can meet the bar. Better still, only those who has consistently demonstrated high standard works can remain as members because the perceived standard of photography can only be improved by actual showing of high standard photos. Those who have shown sub-standard work are assulting the perceived standard of photography in CS, and those who have not posted any of their work (that, by the way, includes yourself) are not contributing to the perceived standard of photography in CS, and these 2 groups should be deregistered until they can prove their worth.

You think that works?

Roy, I will try to make my response shorter, and I am not responding to all the comments, because we wll contiue to disagree.

You said I advocate a draconian approach, restriction on posting pictures, advocating minimum high standard to remain as member of CS etc etc. Now this is all new to me, since they are figment of your own imagination. And when did I advocate any group be de-registered for whatever reasons? Can you show me, in all my comments, where and when did I even come near to advocating such stupid actions?

All I said was, many of the photographers claiming to be professionals do not deserve such a title. How you twisted my words is beyond me, but apparently, not within your wild imagination and logic.

On another point, you kept on pounding the fact that I have not posted on CS. That is true, I don't post of forums, and that is a fact. It this a problem? Is this a problem for you? I do not believe that I have to post pictures to have an opinion, and to be able to express my opinion, or cirticism.

You and I will never agree on much, so let it be. I will continue to seek issues I feel worthy of comments, and comment on them.

 

[student]

Roy, I will try to make my response shorter, and I am not responding to all the comments, because we wll contiue to disagree.

You said I advocate a draconian approach, restriction on posting pictures, advocating minimum high standard to remain as member of CS etc etc. Now this is all new to me, since they are figment of your own imagination. And when did I advocate any group be de-registered for whatever reasons? Can you show me, in all my comments, where and when did I even come near to advocating such stupid actions?

All I said was, many of the photographers claiming to be professionals do not deserve such a title. How you twisted my words is beyond me, but apparently, not within your wild imagination and logic.

On another point, you kept on pounding the fact that I have not posted on CS. That is true, I don't post of forums, and that is a fact. It this a problem? Is this a problem for you? I do not believe that I have to post pictures to have an opinion, and to be able to express my opinion, or cirticism.

You and I will never agree on much, so let it be. I will continue to seek issues I feel worthy of comments, and comment on them.

Roy,

I will have to agree with DP here. And no, I am not trying to curry favor with DP.

I feel your statements about DP's inclination to "Draconian" measures are the makings of your own imagination.

In my earlier reply to your questions, I specifically mentioned that what DP is concerned about, and annoyed with, is not something that bothers me at all. Nonetheless, I think it is a good thread just to discuss things so that we can clarify our thoughts.

But your suggestion of DP's apparent Draconian intent/inclination towards the measures you mentioned is, in my oipnion, totally baseless and unfounded. You had created an intent which never existed.

There are many ways to contribute to this forum. Posting images is one. Giving appropriate and insightful comments is another. Raising the "photography intellect" is also very important, in my opinion.

And members chose the way/s they want to contribute. And this is the way vibrancy and diversity is created, encouraged, and sustained.

Do not stifle differences in the ways contributions are made.

 

[LittleWolf]

It matters becasue wannabe professional photographers artificially lower the standard of photography. Why, you may ask. Majority of the audience is non-photographer. The word "professional" means to them, a set standard, and a high standard.

Maybe expectations differ depending on where one lives and what experiences one has had in life. I would never expect that "professional" implies setting high standards. Like in any other group, there are the excellent, the good, the average, the bad, and the ugly.

 

[vince123123]

Not sure if I'm correct, but I think what Deadpoet is taking issue at, is not so much that people with lousy photographs cannot call themselves professionals, but people who are obviously doing it as a sideline, with very little experience calling themselves professionals:

"But claiming that you are a professional just because you shoot one or two weddings a year, or did a botched up photoshoot for a catalog for the company you work for during the day and only got the job because your company is too cheap, or picked up a job here or there for peanuts, does not a professional photographer make."

The Draconian way, which I feel is the way you are leaning towards, is to set a strict qualification process for all and prohibit those who are considered as sub-standard from calling themselves photographers and maybe even restrict them from posting pictures until they can meet the bar. Better still, only those who has consistently demonstrated high standard works can remain as members because the perceived standard of photography can only be improved by actual showing of high standard photos. Those who have shown sub-standard work are assulting the perceived standard of photography in CS, and those who have not posted any of their work (that, by the way, includes yourself) are not contributing to the perceived standard of photography in CS, and these 2 groups should be deregistered until they can prove their worth.

You think that works?

 

[Jemapela]

I must agree with this. I've seen some photography diploma holders from reputable colleges struggle with fundamental exposure techniques when shooting in real life scenarios. It appears that the coursework for a diploma doesn't ensure that they are sufficiently skilled to handle dynamic shooting situations.

This is not at all surprising, and is very expected.

To be realistic, and generally speaking, diploma holders would have limited capacity/proficiency to perform, especially when compared to higher qualified or higher experienced peers. This is true across all disciplines. Even degree holders have to learn on the job because whatever knowledge that was learnt in university is either too fundamental (to design/build/create/produce) anything fantastic, or else, just outdated.

In my post, I included persons with a diploma of photography only because they have formally studied it. They may not be superb photographers.

In fact, even degree holders may not be superb photographers themselves, and in reality, many aren't and many never will. Like everyone else, they may have a photography degree (which they can flash around and show off) but their transcripts may have a long list of grade E (the passing grade) for every subject.

Here in Melbourne, I met one RMIT photography graduate who told me that he knew and heard of graduate peers who quit and flee the photography industry. Their crime was simply because they unskillfully screwed up a wedding job badly enough and know that they will never be able to easily recover their reputation (despite holding a recognised degree).

 

[jbma]

Not sure if I'm correct, but I think what Deadpoet is taking issue at, is not so much that people with lousy photographs cannot call themselves professionals, but people who are obviously doing it as a sideline, with very little experience calling themselves professionals:

If this is true then just let it be. People can call themselves what they like and it does not have an impact on us here. Just him and the clients.

 

[roygoh]

Not sure if I'm correct, but I think what Deadpoet is taking issue at, is not so much that people with lousy photographs cannot call themselves professionals, but people who are obviously doing it as a sideline, with very little experience calling themselves professionals:

I have to disagree... I believe he is taking issue with both cases. And it is my interpretation that his emphasis is more towards the "standard" part than the "side-line/full-time" part. I am not trying to put words into his mouth or twist his words. This is the impression I get from reading his posts. And he could and should correct me if I am wrong on this.

The text below are all taken from DP's posts verbatim. He mentioned more than once that his biggest beef is about the lowering of standard of photography.

I am not bothered personally, but such claims are irritating in a general sense, especially to the art of photogrpahy. It lowers the overall standard.

I would say upset is a wrong description of my rath. Upset has a personal connotation. I am irritated by the fact that photographers who are not skilled and ill prepared, calling themselves professional, just becasue they bought a DSLR, and claimed to shoot this or that professionally. My biggest beef is these people, most of them can't take a picture to save their lives. But because they have a DSLR and did an event for peanuts, they claim to be professional.

Now, even though I am a rank amateur, I do care about the overall standard of photography. The wannabe professional photographers is out there doing their best to lowering the standard, this is my beef.

Standard, such a elusive thing. Even though there is no established standard, we as part of the community of photographers, here on CS, in Singapore and in the world, should still upheld a standard, whatever it may be.

To reiterate my beef, my irritation comes from people who call themselves professionals simply because they own the right equipments, may have shot a few paid assignment on the side, and cannot shoot straight to save their own lives.

Some of you thought my logic is off, because there is no general established standard for photography. Well, I did not start this discussion base on logic. It was based on the passion for photography and the witnessing of the lowering of the standard of photography today.

I was annoyed and irritated from wannabe professional photographers claiming that they are professional, but cannot upheld whatever minimum professional standard there is. What is this standard, as Roy had stated, we don’t know. However, we all know, professionals are held to much higher standards. And, from my observations, these wannabe professional photographers did not achieve these higher standard, but have no problem calling themselves professional photographers.

It matters becasue wannabe professional photographers artificially lower the standard of photography. Why, you may ask. Majority of the audience is non-photographer. The word "professional" means to them, a set standard, and a high standard. The wannabe professional photographers are assulting this standard. Should we all just stand aside and see the standard being eroded?

 

[roygoh]

I must agree with this. I've seen some photography diploma holders from reputable colleges struggle with fundamental exposure techniques when shooting in real life scenarios. It appears that the coursework for a diploma doesn't ensure that they are sufficiently skilled to handle dynamic shooting situations.

This applies to almost every field. I have interviewed electrical engineering degree holders from reputable universities who were not able to explain ohm's law. Everyone in in Singapore is required to pass a driving test before they can drive but we still see lots of bad drivers.

 

[roygoh]

Roy, I will try to make my response shorter, and I am not responding to all the comments, because we wll contiue to disagree.

If we agree on everything then we don't have to discuss about anything. Too bad you choose not to respond to the first half of my previous post, which I feel is the part that really addresses the core topic of discussion.

You said I advocate a draconian approach, restriction on posting pictures, advocating minimum high standard to remain as member of CS etc etc. Now this is all new to me, since they are figment of your own imagination. And when did I advocate any group be de-registered for whatever reasons? Can you show me, in all my comments, where and when did I even come near to advocating such stupid actions?

All I said was, many of the photographers claiming to be professionals do not deserve such a title. How you twisted my words is beyond me, but apparently, not within your wild imagination and logic.

I described 2 approaches to improving the standard of photography in CS, clearly stating that it was for the sake of argument only, and said that I "feel you are leaning towards" the draconian approach. That is different from saying that you have proposed that scheme in CS.

From your posts in this thread is is clear to me that your desire is for people who you feel are not worthy of the "professional photographer" title not call themselves as such. I am drawing an analogy between "professional photographer" and "CS member", and between "standard of photography of professional photographer" and "standard of photography of CS members".

I agree that the draconian approach is exaggerated, but it was done so to help me bring forward my point of argument against yours.

On another point, you kept on pounding the fact that I have not posted on CS. That is true, I don't post of forums, and that is a fact. It this a problem? Is this a problem for you? I do not believe that I have to post pictures to have an opinion, and to be able to express my opinion, or cirticism.

Please show the entire forum here how I have "kept on pounding" on the fact that you have not posted any photos here. Now that is twisting my words and its totally beyond me. I never said you have to post pictures to have an opinion. I never had a problem with you not posting a single photo of yours. I even defended SS's position when Vince and Student accused him of issuing a challenge to you to post your pictures before you can talk. The only time I cited this fact was in the previous post, and that is not even raising it as an issue, but only using that as an example fo my hypothetical draconian approach to maintain high standard of photography in CS. There are other members here who have not posted a single picture, but since I was addressing my post at you, I picked you as an example. Is your imagination wilder than mine?

You and I will never agree on much, so let it be. I will continue to seek issues I feel worthy of comments, and comment on them.

You make my life in CS more interesting. You motivate me to make long posts. And what you've said above is exactly what I expect from you. I have never tried to shut you up, have I?

At least I have never said "Those with an opinion not worthy of the forum's standard of quality discussions should remain quiet." Have I?

 

[roygoh]

One more long post and I will take a break....

Roy,

I will have to agree with DP here. And no, I am not trying to curry favor with DP.

I feel your statements about DP's inclination to "Draconian" measures are the makings of your own imagination.

In my earlier reply to your questions, I specifically mentioned that what DP is concerned about, and annoyed with, is not something that bothers me at all. Nonetheless, I think it is a good thread just to discuss things so that we can clarify our thoughts.

But your suggestion of DP's apparent Draconian intent/inclination towards the measures you mentioned is, in my oipnion, totally baseless and unfounded. You had created an intent which never existed.

Student,

I will have to disagree with you here. And no, I do not think you are trying to curry favor with DP.

Your suggestion of my apparent intent/inclination towards thinking that you are "trying to curry favour with DP" is, in my oipnion, the makings of your own imagination, totally baseless and unfounded. You have created an intent which never existed.

There are many ways to contribute to this forum. Posting images is one. Giving appropriate and insightful comments is another. Raising the "photography intellect" is also very important, in my opinion.

And members chose the way/s they want to contribute. And this is the way vibrancy and diversity is created, encouraged, and sustained.

Do not stifle differences in the ways contributions are made.

I agree. We are begining to agree more and more and that may not be a good sign.

There are many aspects of a photography business. Standard of photography is one. Quality of service is another. Raising "photography business ethics" is also very important, in my opinion.

And photographers chose the way/s they want to focus on for their business/service. And this is the way vibrancy and diversity is created, encouraged, and sustained.

Do not stifle differences in the ways standards of professional photographers are upheld.

Come on, with your fluency in English you can surely see that the draconian scenario I have raised is intentionally exaggerated and not representative of how I really think the standard of photography in CS should be upheld right?

 

[student]

One more long post and I will take a break....



Student,

I will have to disagree with you here. And no, I do not think you are trying to curry favor with DP.

Your suggestion of my apparent intent/inclination towards thinking that you are "trying to curry favour with DP" is, in my oipnion, the makings of your own imagination, totally baseless and unfounded. You have created an intent which never existed.

Ah, but I never did say that you felt that I was trying to curry favor with me! And you are a fast learner! :thumbsup: :bsmilie:

I agree. We are begining to agree more and more and that may not be a good sign.

There are many aspects of a photography business. Standard of photography is one. Quality of service is another. Raising "photography business ethics" is also very important, in my opinion.

And photographers chose the way/s they want to focus on for their business/service. And this is the way vibrancy and diversity is created, encouraged, and sustained.

Do not stifle differences in the ways standards of professional photographers are upheld.

Come on, with your fluency in English you can surely see that the draconian scenario I have raised is intentionally exaggerated and not representative of how I really think the standard of photography in CS should be upheld right?

Of course I know that you exaggerated. But to an, er, lesser person with underpar ability to read nuances, the exaggeration might be taken on face value!:bsmilie:

 

[eow]

the only thing i can comment on is this thread remind me of my manager...with his linguistic fluency was just damn good at verbal debate and blow cowhide....but workwise...heh heh..come on show your work and silence yr critics!

 

[Deadpoet]

Roy, nothing personal, we all exagerate at times, and this had been one of the best discussion on the board for a long while. I really have no solution to my ranting and raving, but none the less, I am still annoyed. Now I have to go smack someone.

the only thing i can comment on is this thread remind me of my manager...with his linguistic fluency was just damn good at verbal debate and blow cowhide....but workwise...heh heh..come on show your work and silence yr critics!

eow, well, you must not read well, this particular statement was brought up how many time in this thread, I lost count. Just so that you won't misunderstand, you were saying that I should shut up unless I show my work and therefore shut up my critics?

Most important photography collectors, museum cureator or magazine publishers/editors themselves are not great, nor even good photographer. However, their contributions to photography are just as important as the photographers themselves.

Your statement is the dumbest of the day. So what if I never post any pictures? For all you care, I may never have picked up a camera in my life, so what? I am but a layman who enjoys photography. Does that makes me a lesser critic? Does that makes my observations less poinant? Does that erode my ability to comprehend? My answer is no.

My criticism, arguements and ideas have nothing to do with my ability to shoot, but my ability to think and form opinions, and my ability to express my thoughts and ideas.

 

[azul123]

This applies to almost every field. I have interviewed electrical engineering degree holders from reputable universities who were not able to explain ohm's law.

I have done interviews myself and I won't ever do what you did, i.e.; asking the first thing about what they had learn in school... rather it is better to drill down what this person can create or be creative about, how he would solve a problem, how he sees future products if he is engineering it etc...

That is the "old" way or rather Singaporean way of doing things which is really archaic. We need to really cultivate and nuture talent, not testing someone who is best at spilling all that they've learn since secondary 3?

../azul123

 

[azul123]

As to the topic, this is really a good post I must say...

There are several of you, who are really passionate about this craft and that makes it all the worth-while reading from the start, it shows the commitment some of you have.

I mean this comes from both camps. Great stuff here, it makes you wonder and evaluate the quality of your work.

About Professionals and Hobbyist... I have seen some hobbyist images better than some professionals, that tells alot about the industry deosn't it?

../azul123

 

[eow]

Roy, nothing personal, we all exagerate at times, and this had been one of the best discussion on the board for a long while. I really have no solution to my ranting and raving, but none the less, I am still annoyed. Now I have to go smack someone.



eow, well, you must not read well, this particular statement was brought up how many time in this thread, I lost count. Just so that you won't misunderstand, you were saying that I should shut up unless I show my work and therefore shut up my critics?

Most important photography collectors, museum cureator or magazine publishers/editors themselves are not great, nor even good photographer. However, their contributions to photography are just as important as the photographers themselves.

Your statement is the dumbest of the day. So what if I never post any pictures? For all you care, I may never have picked up a camera in my life, so what? I am but a layman who enjoys photography. Does that makes me a lesser critic? Does that makes my observations less poinant? Does that erode my ability to comprehend? My answer is no.

My criticism, arguements and ideas have nothing to do with my ability to shoot, but my ability to think and form opinions, and my ability to express my thoughts and ideas.

gosh u mean my manager got the job even he is not 'great' or 'good'?
if u read my post i meant u well if u can silence all yr critic by just showing yr pics ..just do it why the hestitation and despite all these use of yr linguistic ability to yr advantages and type all the long paragraph when u can do with just a few pics to prove yr worth?

 

[roygoh]

I have done interviews myself and I won't ever do what you did, i.e.; asking the first thing about what they had learn in school... rather it is better to drill down what this person can create or be creative about, how he would solve a problem, how he sees future products if he is engineering it etc...

That is the "old" way or rather Singaporean way of doing things which is really archaic. We need to really cultivate and nuture talent, not testing someone who is best at spilling all that they've learn since secondary 3?

../azul123

This is OT but again, how you made the assumption that the first thing I ask in an interview is what the candidate has learnt from school is beyond me....it is when the rest of the probing you mention all fell apart that I had to drill down on the basics to better assess the candidate's potentials. Even if I were to probe at the candidate's basic knowledge I would not be asking him/her to cite Ohm's law without using any practical examples....

 

[azul123]

This is OT but again, how you made the assumption that the first thing I ask in an interview is what the candidate has learnt from school is beyond me....it is when the rest of the probing you mention all fell apart that I had to drill down on the basics to better assess the candidate's potentials. Even if I were to probe at the candidate's basic knowledge I would not be asking him/her to cite Ohm's law without using any practical examples....

It's not important how the candidate lands in your office for the job interview, it's more important how he/she can further develops and at the same time benefitted your company, is what I am trying to get at.

../azul123

 

[shinken]

the only thing i can comment on is this thread remind me of my manager...with his linguistic fluency was just damn good at verbal debate and blow cowhide....but workwise...heh heh..come on show your work and silence yr critics!

So does posting his works justify DP's stand? DP's insistance not to post even more reinforces how he choses to maintain his stand on merely on one of "ranting" rather than "influencing", which arguments in CS tend to incline towards. And I respect that. Asking him to post to prove that he's right is totally beyond me. You mean DP would be right to say the wannabes are wrong if he shows great photos? Come on man. So Roy should show DP his pics in order to convince DP he's wrong?

 

[Deadpoet]

So does posting his works justify DP's stand? DP's insistance not to post even more reinforces how he choses to maintain his stand on merely on one of "ranting" rather than "influencing", which arguments in CS tend to incline towards. And I respect that. Asking him to post to prove that he's right is totally beyond me. You mean DP would be right to say the wannabes are wrong if he shows great photos? Come on man. So Roy should show DP his pics in order to convince DP he's wrong?

nice left hook, didn't see it coming, about ranting.

I am definately ranting and raving, but I don't think it's without cause. That is my believe, and I choose to air my believe and opinion here, where there are common interests, photography and standard in photography.