Suggestion: Code of Conduct for Lingerine and Nude Organised Shoots

[night86mare]

My suggestion is posted on another thread, and it is not in the form of a shoot. I can live with my suggestion. If CS wants to take my suggestion up, I am happy to chip in and do it the way I have suggested.

Now that I have replied to you, can you tell me where your suggestions are?

i like mattlock's suggestion, raised earlier in another thread which i'm sure you have seen.

 

[night86mare]

quoting mattlock's reply, since it is buried somewhere in the sands of time, as are all valid suggestions

I would actually advocate that the admin cut to the root of the issue, which is the suppliers.
The admin of Clubsnap should be discerning and have a set of standards as to the organisers of photoshoots. A stamp of approval of sorts, to weed out the organisers who are less credible.

This will also ensure a higher standard of photoshoots, and help to improve the standard of photography that is produced.

Now let me make it clear, I am not against nude/sexy photoshoots. But there's a difference between a sexy photoshoot and a outing solely to ogle at women.
We have some talented shooters here who do a good job making girls look sexy (flipfreak for one)
They should be able to take their photos without having to deal with the perception of being perverts as articles such as these seem.

If the admin of Clubsnap is tolerant of sexy photoshoots, then they should have a set of standards which they can stand behind and respond to brickbats regarding the issue of sleaze. This will also help the community that supports Clubsnap to have a healthy conscience of sorts in regards to such issues.

My argument here might come across as a slight contradiction of points but hopefully the main jist goes through

Yes, so we keep the advertising fee and we also have a set of guidelines and quality control to offer.
Photoshoot organisers should have a PHYSICAL interaction with the admin, perhaps an short interview process of sorts.
As mentioned, a physical meeting adds a different dimension in the interactions between people.

This will cause a certain level of red tape, and there might be a need to raise fees in some way, however, with added credibility and quality control, photographers who want to sign up for a shoot are comforted by a certain level of quality control.

Most of us are working adults and our time is very precious (weekends are usually the main free time we have), so organisers charging $20 more in exchange for an assurance of standards is a worthwhile tradeoff.

 

[squall]

Friends,

If the TS indeed was accosted during her shoot and still today receives unsolicited lewd email (& I give her the benefit of doubt on this), then it is understandable her tirades in CS and TNP.......not the best way to do what she is trying to do......but understandable.

However..........

The bottom line is that as long as a model is not forced to do anything she does not want to, then it is impractical for a diverse community such as CS to impose rules.

Nobody forces a model to be a model.
A model does not need to do lingerie/ nudes. If they did, it is by choice, be it personality/ misguided/ kenna conned by boyfriend/ lose a bet/ handphone snaps with fellow girlfriends after a party......all choices made freely. In this light, I fully support Averal's original stance of EDUCATION, of both models and photographers and in this light, CS has begun to do that....from the Averal sticky to several other posts containing wise voices. The broader photographic community I believe supports education for we also does not want to be sullied by accusations of molest and accosting models.

What cannot be done by CS is ENFORCEMENT, which is the spirit though not the letter of the original thread.

To "averal": Understand the difference between the Cause and the Means. They are many of us photogs that can support the cause, but by the means you have chosen, you have left a distaste in the mouth of the the moderates. If you follow politics, this is akin to the choice of Sarah Palin turning off the undecided female moderate voters. Change requires support, momentum. Strong words alone, is polarising and damaging to the cause....hence why the statement in an earlier post that you did the TNP article for "5 minutes of fame". IMHO, the TNP article, which was sensationalist and one-sided, has not helped your cause within CS.

To "designerwhere": dont disengage from a thread just because of hard words and strong opinions. For others to respect your opinions, you cannot openly disengage. The undertone of that post is that you feel that the opinions given before are not worth your reply. Perhaps that is not your intent, but that is how it will be construed. In this vein, learn from Averal, she keeps her civility amidst the storm and does not abandon her thread.

My 2 cents.

 

[TheQuestion]

Friends,

If the TS indeed was accosted during her shoot and still today receives unsolicited lewd email (& I give her the benefit of doubt on this), then it is understandable her tirades in CS and TNP.......not the best way to do what she is trying to do......but understandable.

However..........

The bottom line is that as long as a model is not forced to do anything she does not want to, then it is impractical for a diverse community such as CS to impose rules.

Nobody forces a model to be a model.
A model does not need to do lingerie/ nudes. If they did, it is by choice, be it personality/ misguided/ kenna conned by boyfriend/ lose a bet/ handphone snaps with fellow girlfriends after a party......all choices made freely. In this light, I fully support Averal's original stance of EDUCATION, of both models and photographers and in this light, CS has begun to do that....from the Averal sticky to several other posts containing wise voices. The broader photographic community I believe supports education for we also does not want to be sullied by accusations of molest and accosting models.

What cannot be done by CS is ENFORCEMENT, which is the spirit though not the letter of the original thread.

To "averal": Understand the difference between the Cause and the Means. They are many of us photogs that can support the cause, but by the means you have chosen, you have left a distaste in the mouth of the the moderates. If you follow politics, this is akin to the choice of Sarah Palin turning off the undecided female moderate voters. Change requires support, momentum. Strong words alone, is polarising and damaging to the cause....hence why the statement in an earlier post that you did the TNP article for "5 minutes of fame". IMHO, the TNP article, which was sensationalist and one-sided, has not helped your cause within CS.

To "designerwhere": dont disengage from a thread just because of hard words and strong opinions. For others to respect your opinions, you cannot openly disengage. The undertone of that post is that you feel that the opinions given before are not worth your reply. Perhaps that is not your intent, but that is how it will be construed. In this vein, learn from Averal, she keeps her civility amidst the storm and does not abandon her thread.

My 2 cents.

Well said. :thumbsup:

 

[obfuscate]

quoting mattlock's reply, since it is buried somewhere in the sands of time, as are all valid suggestions

Thank you. Before I make any further comment, I'd like to ask a question. What do you think is the problem with all that has been discussed?

For me, it is 2 things that I see as problems that I think should not be tolerated. Firstly, young girls modelling in a revealing manner. Secondly, sleaze.

 

[night86mare]

Thank you. Before I make any further comment, I'd like to ask a question. What do you think is the problem with all that has been discussed?

For me, it is 2 things that I see as problems that I think should not be tolerated. Firstly, young girls modelling in a revealing manner. Secondly, sleaze.

i think the young girls thing, it depends more on the photographers. anyone can take a photograph of a female dressed revealingly, from age 0 to age 200, but the photographer has the decision to take the photo or not, and how he wishes to present the girl.

sleaze - if the photographer behaves professionally, as does the model, there is no issue with this.

i think the issue here is really with the image of the forums, and of photographers in singapore, since the forum IS the main representation of us online. that happens to be the primary issue here, sadly. your issues also count, that's for sure, but they tend to take a sideline. and of course there are those who will just milk the opportunity to start flame battles which do nothing, and others who try to manipulate anything into a legal discussion ground for unknown reasons.

averral raises a great point here with regards to educating the models. i think in the same breath, perhaps the photographers should be educated as well.

but of course, a lot of these 2 categories do not give a damn about being educated. so it's really, easier said than done. but we should do what we can, rather than look back and say "why didn't we?"

 

[kkcharles82]

The main problem here is that this is an online forum, eventhough there is registration process and all, there is no physical control over the members. Neither would the average member want to be subjected to physical control. This is nothing like the groupings similar to the Freemasons where member are subjected to at least responsiility to report their actions to the club or society that they belong to. This forum is a place for like minded photography hobbists, enthusiasts and even professionals to take part in to exchange ideas and knowledge. And so happens that photography also supports or is supported by modelling, whichever way you view it. I highlight the suggestions from AverRal again for easy reference and I quote,

1. Basic set up of lighting equipment for attendees

2. A mentor (experienced) who will guide the attendees.
(Mentor portfolio must be made available to the public for viewing to evaluate his credibility)

So are we to ban all the organisers that do not comply with the ruling, we can, but how can we enforce these suggestions adn acertain that a breach has happened. We cannot rely on a few report, or even one report. We are not paid and we do have our own private lives to manage, and we do not spend time trawling through the evidence box for potential scraps of data that proves something undesireable has happened.

This forum is purely our interest and passion that bring everyone here together. Besides, I would question the relevance of point 1 to this topic. I don't do studio shoots, nor am I a professional, so please enlighten me if that is of significance. Then for point 2, how many, if any of photographers or highly experienced professionals are willing if at all, deal with a small group of people like us organising photoshoots. Even if they are willing, the cost involved will be so ridiculously high to the organisers that it make the shoot impossible, which bring me to AverRal's point, I quote,

Actually, I am not all that supportive of banning of nude photography as it does not solve the issue but rather, avoid it. I am concerned about the issue of regulating the standard of organised shoots.

We will make the shoot impossible, thus virtually "banning" it. What's the difference, no difference to me. Besides, if there are fake docters around doing surgery, what make us think that there will be no "fake professional experienced photographer" masquerading and capitalising on the rulings. Not that I believe the shoot organisers will cheat or play dirty , but such a ruling opens the door to more problems. Rulings results in loopholes, closing loopholes produces more ruling, self-regenerating sequence.

Hence, to all budding models out there, please keep your eyes and ears open. Observe what is going on and protect yourself, you are in charge and you take control. I believe that the shoot organisers have in place their sets of checks and control. If they are insufficient, we may discuss them on this forum, openly. Thus, in all context and possiblity, I conclude that we are not in a position to do anything, nor implement any rulings are regulations. This is a self regulated forum with moderation, we keep it that way.

 

[designerwhere]

Friends,

If the TS indeed was accosted during her shoot and still today receives unsolicited lewd email (& I give her the benefit of doubt on this), then it is understandable her tirades in CS and TNP.......not the best way to do what she is trying to do......but understandable.

However..........

The bottom line is that as long as a model is not forced to do anything she does not want to, then it is impractical for a diverse community such as CS to impose rules.

Nobody forces a model to be a model.
A model does not need to do lingerie/ nudes. If they did, it is by choice, be it personality/ misguided/ kenna conned by boyfriend/ lose a bet/ handphone snaps with fellow girlfriends after a party......all choices made freely. In this light, I fully support Averal's original stance of EDUCATION, of both models and photographers and in this light, CS has begun to do that....from the Averal sticky to several other posts containing wise voices. The broader photographic community I believe supports education for we also does not want to be sullied by accusations of molest and accosting models.

What cannot be done by CS is ENFORCEMENT, which is the spirit though not the letter of the original thread.

To "averal": Understand the difference between the Cause and the Means. They are many of us photogs that can support the cause, but by the means you have chosen, you have left a distaste in the mouth of the the moderates. If you follow politics, this is akin to the choice of Sarah Palin turning off the undecided female moderate voters. Change requires support, momentum. Strong words alone, is polarising and damaging to the cause....hence why the statement in an earlier post that you did the TNP article for "5 minutes of fame". IMHO, the TNP article, which was sensationalist and one-sided, has not helped your cause within CS.

To "designerwhere": dont disengage from a thread just because of hard words and strong opinions. For others to respect your opinions, you cannot openly disengage. The undertone of that post is that you feel that the opinions given before are not worth your reply. Perhaps that is not your intent, but that is how it will be construed. In this vein, learn from Averal, she keeps her civility amidst the storm and does not abandon her thread.

My 2 cents.

Thanks for the feedback and I appreciate the effort taken in the thought you put into posting. You made my day with your insights. Lots more to occupy myself with outside the forums and we all have to have our priorities. Thanks once again for the genuine and heartfelt suggestions.

 

[sORe-EyEz]

some things cannot be left to chances or the way it is. monetary cost is 1 thing, but CS being an online community is more than just about money. as for loopholes, there's always new patches for these holes. not patching up loopholes would be an odd thing to do, or not do...

in light of past rants in CS, self regulation is not the way to go, it's not working like it should. there is a fair number of black sheeps who will claim "anything goes", since there is no regulation.

 

[designerwhere]

I am really glad that the thread has gone back on track.
For all those who posted, my appreciation I send to you.
We have all said things at the heat of the moment, so if i offended anyone, I apologize.
I am sure if we all sit down like sensible human beings, we can actually make Clubsnap a better place to be in for Photographers, models and shoot organizers alike.
Thanks once again for the attention and have an enjoyable evening.

 

[AverRal]

1. Basic set up of lighting equipment for attendees

2. A mentor (experienced) who will guide the attendees.
(Mentor portfolio must be made available to the public for viewing to evaluate his credibility)

So are we to ban all the organisers that do not comply with the ruling, we can, but how can we enforce these suggestions and acertain that a breach has happened. We cannot rely on a few report, or even one report. We are not paid and we do have our own private lives to manage, and we do not spend time trawling through the evidence box for potential scraps of data that proves something undesirable has happened.

I wouldn't say we have to ban them, but regulate them in a way that they are conducting shoots are well beneficial to the portfolios of the attendees. We can regulate them by ensuring that there is a 1)basic lighting set up (if indoors) 2) mentor to improve the overall quality of the shoots.

This forum is purely our interest and passion that bring everyone here together. Besides, I would question the relevance of point 1 to this topic. I don't do studio shoots, nor am I a professional, so please enlighten me if that is of significance. Then for point 2, how many, if any of photographers or highly experienced professionals are willing if at all, deal with a small group of people like us organising photoshoots. Even if they are willing, the cost involved will be so ridiculously high to the organisers that it make the shoot impossible.

There are highly professional photographers who do actively give workshops to small groups of people. They need not charge overly expensive fees as you said. If a group of 10 contributes an additional $10 to the current cost of the shoot, the professional photographer can be paid $100 an hour. There are photographers who do want to share the cost of engaging a professional photographer to be split among the participants.

Actually, I am not all that supportive of banning of nude photography as it does not solve the issue but rather, avoid it. I am concerned about the issue of regulating the standard of organised shoots.

We will make the shoot impossible, thus virtually "banning" it. What's the difference, no difference to me. Besides, if there are fake docters around doing surgery, what make us think that there will be no "fake professional experienced photographer" masquerading and capitalising on the rulings. Not that I believe the shoot organisers will cheat or play dirty , but such a ruling opens the door to more problems. Rulings results in loopholes, closing loopholes produces more ruling, self-regenerating sequence.

The professional experienced photographer would have to show his portfolio online (as i highlighted) and state his years of experience in the industry. Yes, they might be fakes, we cannot avoid that. But the matter of concern here is at least we do encourage these professionals to come out and contribute back to the photographic community in a positive way.

We should not be focused on the problems but on the solutions, to every problem there is a solution and we should keep advancing forward instead of just not doing anything about it.

 

[Lumiere]

If you have not noticed, we have not responded to 21 pages of the XMM thread n 4 pages of Averal thread. Thanks for your valueable feedback and have a nice day.

Since you are an Award Winning Photographer since 2005...if you had stepped in earlier...maybe out of respect people would have give u some face that you're her bf...:sweatsm:

if you had pulled ur rank that you're an Award Winning Photographer...i might get scared and not post up her fetish specialization...

 

[TheQuestion]

Since you are an Award Winning Photographer since 2005...if you had stepped in earlier...maybe out of respect people would have give u some face that you're her bf...:sweatsm:

if you had pulled ur rank that you're an Award Winning Photographer...i might get scared and not post up her fetish specialization...

:bigeyes:

 

[vince123123]

He's an award winning photographer arh?

Since you are an Award Winning Photographer since 2005...if you had stepped in earlier...maybe out of respect people would have give u some face that you're her bf...:sweatsm:

if you had pulled ur rank that you're an Award Winning Photographer...i might get scared and not post up her fetish specialization...

 

[vince123123]

I'm still going for my model mentor idea - in a shoot comprising 4 models, each model just needs to take a 25% reduction of her fees, and we can hire a model mentor for that cost! That would certainly increase the level of the shoot both for photographers and models alike!

There are highly professional photographers who do actively give workshops to small groups of people. They need not charge overly expensive fees as you said. If a group of 10 contributes an additional $10 to the current cost of the shoot, the professional photographer can be paid $100 an hour. There are photographers who do want to share the cost of engaging a professional photographer to be split among the participants.

 

[TheQuestion]

I wouldn't say we have to ban them, but regulate them in a way that they are conducting shoots are well beneficial to the portfolios of the attendees. We can regulate them by ensuring that there is a 1)basic lighting set up (if indoors) 2) mentor to improve the overall quality of the shoots.



There are highly professional photographers who do actively give workshops to small groups of people. They need not charge overly expensive fees as you said. If a group of 10 contributes an additional $10 to the current cost of the shoot, the professional photographer can be paid $100 an hour. There are photographers who do want to share the cost of engaging a professional photographer to be split among the participants.



The professional experienced photographer would have to show his portfolio online (as i highlighted) and state his years of experience in the industry. Yes, they might be fakes, we cannot avoid that. But the matter of concern here is at least we do encourage these professionals to come out and contribute back to the photographic community in a positive way.

We should not be focused on the problems but on the solutions, to every problem there is a solution and we should keep advancing forward instead of just not doing anything about it.

and who's gonna pay for the studio and model for the students to practice on? ship has sailed on the call for focusing on solutions. what is funny is that u still haven't issued the apology or statement to the mods for the insinuation u made against them earlier. want to move on first settle the past.

 

[TheQuestion]

He's an award winning photographer arh?

so's someone else who's posted here. doesn't give them credibility automatically.

 

[night86mare]

I wouldn't say we have to ban them, but regulate them in a way that they are conducting shoots are well beneficial to the portfolios of the attendees. We can regulate them by ensuring that there is a 1)basic lighting set up (if indoors) 2) mentor to improve the overall quality of the shoots.

There are highly professional photographers who do actively give workshops to small groups of people. They need not charge overly expensive fees as you said. If a group of 10 contributes an additional $10 to the current cost of the shoot, the professional photographer can be paid $100 an hour. There are photographers who do want to share the cost of engaging a professional photographer to be split among the participants.

The professional experienced photographer would have to show his portfolio online (as i highlighted) and state his years of experience in the industry. Yes, they might be fakes, we cannot avoid that. But the matter of concern here is at least we do encourage these professionals to come out and contribute back to the photographic community in a positive way.

We should not be focused on the problems but on the solutions, to every problem there is a solution and we should keep advancing forward instead of just not doing anything about it.

now that the discussion is back on track, please ignore the snipes. when people feel snubbed they will not post anymore.

anyways, as much as i think this is a way to go about it, my question is - how many professional photographers do you know that will be willing to conduct such things? not all professional photographers tend to be extroverts. so as far as i would think that this is not an impossible idea; i highly doubt its feasibility.

also, like it or not, believe it or not.. there are many people who do not want to learn how to take better photographs.

 

[vince123123]

I spot a Thief crying "thief!" yet again!

 

[TheQuestion]

I spot a Thief crying "thief!" yet again!

what to do...award winners what.