Sex Sells - Part 2

[night86mare]

*mod mode off*

nightmare, I'm an advocate of permanent solutions; and it's one of two ways, one - educate to change attitudes (which is next to impossible), two - to kill all organised model shoots altogether (which makes no damn difference to me - I don't do posed people).

Banning just the nudes or lingerie or bikini or give-half-ball shoots won't work in the long run - eventually organisers will just find ways of disguising and packaging the sleaze shoots as decent ones, or as reported on the TNP - turned into a nude shoot on the egging of photographers.


*mod mode on*

well like i pmed glennyong;

i do think that a lot of guys here have issues with more than just sex; there's also the general attitude of the population on both ends of the receiving stick when it comes to comments or giving them as well.

some days it is a photography orientated forum, some days it isn't , if you catch my drift. and i know it takes two hands to clap. the mods/admin can do whatever they want to do, but if the general population still insists on sleaze, advocating sugar coated comments and in so doing provoke nasty comments, among many other things.. it cannot be avoided. i definitely see that.

this is what you get when you want an open community; you have people who come in here and mudsling "asian values" when they are probably more than aware that in doing so they are being unbelievably rude since everyone has their own value system.. you have people who want to shoot nudies to fantasize about rather than to produce something they can be proud of in more ways than just masturbation value.. the list goes on.

yet many forums seem to have no problem with this; and my question is really - why so? :dunno:

 

[astrise]

Totally agree .... Press Release to TNP in response to a sensational article that they have written ???

So what are we going to say ... Its not as if they do not already know CS, what we are and what we do ... Shall we invite their staff photographers to one of our pure and naive XMM shoots to prove to them there is nothing wrong here as well ... :bsmilie:

Not tnp, but the general public. You know, when information (especially sensational, gossipy bits) gets out into the wild, people tend to misquote, misinterpret, miscommunicate, take out of context, distort, further sensationalize, you name it. People need an authoritative source to correct their misconceptions, and tnp's article hardly suffices.

 

[Long Thai Bean]

I wouldn't be surprised if there were TNP staff already attending these XMM lingerie/bikini/nudes on a regular basis! :bsmilie:

I concurr with that ....

And that is also the basis and origin of that TNP article. A reporter posing as a CS member (maybe he really is) ... went to the shoot with full intension of getting photos for the article .... :nono:

 

[Deming86]

Conclusion: Sex Sells and People Buy them.

 

[Long Thai Bean]

Not tnp, but the general public. You know, when information (especially sensational, gossipy bits) gets out into the wild, people tend to misquote, misinterpret, miscommunicate, take out of context, distort, further sensationalize, you name it. People need an authoritative source to correct their misconceptions, and tnp's article hardly suffices.

So you suggest CS put up an article in the ST Forum to clarify the situation and the position of the CS community? Do we have to do one for the Chinese papers as well ... since the article has also been circulated and published in the Chinese evening tabloids?

And should this article represent a general view/opinion of CS community as a whole or just the owners and Mods of this forum? At this moment, we cannot even agree on how to run the Photoshoot Subforum ... let alone try to put up a press release ....

 

[Long Thai Bean]

Conclusion: Sex Sells and People Buy them.

I totally agree with that statement ....

Here is another one .... http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=75

Who's buying ??? :think:

 

[astrise]

So you suggest CS put up an article in the ST Forum to clarify the situation and the position of the CS community? Do we have to do one for the Chinese papers as well ... since the article has also been circulated and published in the Chinese evening tabloids?

And should this article represent a general view/opinion of CS community as a whole or just the owners and Mods of this forum? At this moment, we cannot even agree on how to run the Photoshoot Subforum ... let alone try to put up a press release ....

One thing at a time, and no offense meant I agree with you on this point, and hopefully it'll turn out to be a non-event - but depending on how the next few days play out, we might have to hurry up on that consensus.

Signing off,
astrise.

 

[nixontkl]

Hey Zeisser ; thanks....

Well that "Monkey" maybe one of the Weird and most THICK skin guy... that are lots of similar one... just that they do know how to Conduct themselves... ( Sometimes I just feel like using my Heavy CAMERA and just HIT THEM on the HEAD to wake them up their ideas!!!) hahaahah

I do not care about whether whoever using a small digital camera or a DSLR ... its how you CONDUCT yourself.

anyway Zeisser...good job on your Photos ; using Film... hahaha :thumbsup:

Just saw that 'monkey' today at the mocavinal at kallang today.

notice the existence of this monkey sometime this early this year 2008, he uses a sony DSLR think its a A200 or A100 model, cos that time only this 2 model was out on the market.

Was very irritated by him as he keep calling out to the model at events to look his way so that he can shot and get more pic with eye contact. saw that most models was very turn off by his behavior.

and today at the mocarnival, he does it again, apparently he know one of the model by her name (which can most probably be found out on CS or thru blog of the model) he was like a fly buzzing around 3 models and after the 3 models expressed that they wish to take a break, he still go and block one of them, calling out her name and like asking for email or more snapping time slot for him.

he really give photographers pro or no pro or hobbyist and anyone that holds a DSLR a bad name seriously.

 

[drakon09]

well like i pmed glennyong;

i do think that a lot of guys here have issues with more than just sex; there's also the general attitude of the population on both ends of the receiving stick when it comes to comments or giving them as well.

some days it is a photography orientated forum, some days it isn't , if you catch my drift. and i know it takes two hands to clap. the mods/admin can do whatever they want to do, but if the general population still insists on sleaze, advocating sugar coated comments and in so doing provoke nasty comments, among many other things.. it cannot be avoided. i definitely see that.

this is what you get when you want an open community; you have people who come in here and mudsling "asian values" when they are probably more than aware that in doing so they are being unbelievably rude since everyone has their own value system.. you have people who want to shoot nudies to fantasize about rather than to produce something they can be proud of in more ways than just masturbation value.. the list goes on.

yet many forums seem to have no problem with this; and my question is really - why so? :dunno:

There are tons of people out there who thrive in the anonymity of the Internet and with anonymity, all gloves are off. Some things they comment they will never say to another person in the face. Anonymity protects them; it allows them to be irresponsible, it allows them to say the nastiest things without fear of being identified with it.

Personally, I make it a point to meet people in the flesh; the FourThirds community for instance. Once you put the human face to the nickname, forum discussions become all that more meaningful.

As for the other forums, perhaps they have consciously avoided the areas of most conflict, e.g. buy and sell, organised paid shoots. But as I said earlier, decisions like these are not mine to make; I can only stand by my principles and not advocate these model shoots.

But advocacy only gets you so far; in time, you will just be identified as an outdated, cynical and tired old man.

 

[Long Thai Bean]

One thing at a time, and no offense meant I agree with you on this point, and hopefully it'll turn out to be a non-event - but depending on how the next few days play out, we might have to hurry up on that consensus.

Signing off,
astrise.

No offense taken at all ....

The original "Sex Sells" thread started on 02 Oct 2008 ans ran on for more than a week with 710 post .... It ended 3 weeks ago and yet nothing has changed ... So i think the issue of hurrying up on a consensus is a little out of the question.

There is also a school of thinking in the PR sector that says let things lie low for a while ... and don't comment or give the press any more information or "ammunition". Eventually the incident will blow over and majority of the people will forget about it.

Our gahmen has utilised this method with much success .... Maybe CS should also look to that as an alternative.

 

[zero o]

I see 2 issues here. One is external oriented and the other internal oriented.

By external oriented, I mean that CS has been "misrepresented" by the article. Thus, it is in the interest of CS to address this misrepresentation, if not in a legal perspective but at least in accuracy perspective. We should highlight to TNP the real CS, a place where photo enthusiasts gather not only to shoot but also to discuss equipment, to learn from one another and perhaps even to highlight achievements of individual CS members. Lets not forget the many times CS has organized photoshoots to raise money for disaster relief. CS is a net based community of photog enthusiasts. Of course, in any community, especially in a net based community with no entry requirement, it would be difficult to police everything that goes on within the community, especially one with so much going on - outing , group shoots, sharing of works blah blah blah ... Perhaps a CS member who is a professional PR (public relations not permanent resident) can contribute to help draft the response. Perhaps CS can invite the reporter to do a follow up on the story but this time write about CS and CS community. Rather than look at the negative, lets take this opportunity to educate the public and promote CS.

Internally, by the on-going discussions, I can already see many members voicing their thoughts. This is good. However, we must be mindful that the "reporter lurker" could be monitoring all related threads, so comments should be weighted and discussions meaningful, rather than ill-thought through comments and bickering amongst groups with different perspective. THis process is going to take some time, if the mods allow members to voice their opinions before taking the appropriate stand.

Hope this helps.

 

[Cheesecake]

I see 2 issues here. One is external oriented and the other internal oriented.

By external oriented, I mean that CS has been "misrepresented" by the article. Thus, it is in the interest of CS to address this misrepresentation, if not in a legal perspective but at least in accuracy perspective. We should highlight to TNP the real CS, a place where photo enthusiasts gather not only to shoot but also to discuss equipment, to learn from one another and perhaps even to highlight achievements of individual CS members. Lets not forget the many times CS has organized photoshoots to raise money for disaster relief. CS is a net based community of photog enthusiasts. Of course, in any community, especially in a net based community with no entry requirement, it would be difficult to police everything that goes on within the community, especially one with so much going on - outing , group shoots, sharing of works blah blah blah ... Perhaps a CS member who is a professional PR (public relations not permanent resident) can contribute to help draft the response. Perhaps CS can invite the reporter to do a follow up on the story but this time write about CS and CS community. Rather than look at the negative, lets take this opportunity to educate the public and promote CS.

Internally, by the on-going discussions, I can already see many members voicing their thoughts. This is good. However, we must be mindful that the "reporter lurker" could be monitoring all related threads, so comments should be weighted and discussions meaningful, rather than ill-thought through comments and bickering amongst groups with different perspective. THis process is going to take some time, if the mods allow members to voice their opinions before taking the appropriate stand.

Hope this helps.

nice. :thumbsup:

 

[nixontkl]

Just a thought regarding this whole 'Who Ha' story/incident

it can be a good thing that TNP reported on this nude photography session.

just a point to ponder upon is that, DSLR are so cheap nowadays that anyone can own one and practice photography and i mean anyone so long he or she can hold it and press the shutter. the public should be made aware, especially parent with teenage kids that are into photography. some teenagers are very mature looking and can easily pass off as an young adult (above age of 21), is there any measure to prevent such ppl from joining this type of shots?

what ever we do or snap its personal unless we start posting it on the net and the party that appears in your photos feel offended, you are in trouble. in this case all this shooting session are done behind close doors, ppl involved are ppl who choose to be involved and should full well know that Singapore is very particular about obscenity in public and the internet thou is cyber space, its a public space also. stripping naked and having sex is not illegal as long as the party involved are in mutual agreement and that the activity is taking place in total isolation from the public (AKA your room with the curtain drawn and lights out, unless you want to give silhouette porn show):bsmilie:

I feel that there is nothing wrong with such snapping session as long as no underage ppl or ppl who dont obey the rules of the sessions are allowed and that all involved be responsible ppl and keep such personal shots out of the public area, share share can, invite your kakis over to see your ART shots or pono shots and not distribute them and lose control of the viewership and risk your shots going into public area and getting yourself into deep ****.

moi 2 cents

 

[Rashkae]

notice the existence of this monkey sometime this early this year 2008, he uses a sony DSLR think its a A200 or A100 model, cos that time only this 2 model was out on the market.

Must be the A100. But please, the CS sony community is quite close-knit, we don't condone such bad behavior (results in scoldings). so it must be someone who's not part of the regular group.

 

[neves_atk]

This is a pretty interesting topic considering the many arguments that were being thrown out by people from both side of the fence.

I did a simple search using the keyword "nude" (applies only to post title) in the Portraits and Poses sub-forum with an additional parameter of only threads that is maximum one month old.

And here is the result (and its viewings in [xx] ):

as promised. my nude pic... [10075]
夏の誘惑 Summer Seduction (Nude Content) [6578]
Fresh and Clean (Nude Warning [4250]
Dark and Sinister (Nude Warning) [2520]
My works of "Nude Snaps" [1519]
Rubble and Muscle (Warning: male nude content) [939]

Taking the last item out of the equation (which happens to be male nude), the average viewing per thread is 4988.

At the same time i went through the first five pages of the Portraits and Poses sub-forum, doing another count and the mean viewings per thread is ard 1100.

I used the first five pages since CS's search engine doesn't allow me to just search without using some keywords. So the first five pages would at least even out the possibility of only including newer threads, which of course will have lesser viewings, and thus lowering the
average viewing rate that is calculated. Of course there are also some inherent bias in my methodology such as a thread with higher viewing rate will attract more viewers and etc.

Biases aside, the difference in the view counts of thread title containing "nude" and general threads is significant (5000 vs. 1100).

Is TNP trying to sensationalize these photoshoots to improve its circulation? I agree.
But i do also think there can be no smoke without fire. What exactly can we infer from this two ballpark figures, i leave it to the individual to decide for himself.

My final parting shot - if nude photography is an appreciation of human form, why is the viewing counts of the thread "Rubble and Muscle (Warning: male nude content)" so low?

Sorry if my comment upset ya. It just food for thought.

 

[TheQuestion]

I think we should not be concerned about how a few of our members can give us a bad name, but how we as a community give photography in sgp a bad name. See the bigger picture - I don't know how big an issue this is outside the photographic community, but there's bound to be more people questioning the rights of photographers to 'take pictures of whatever, wherever and whenever they please'. If you think paranoia is far fetched, remember:

1) Sex, parents, and kids are a volatile mix. :nono:
2) Protective parents (it's only natural, isn't it?) acting on irrational fears are a very nasty bunch. [If you need further justification of this just look at all the parents watch groups in the West and their fanatical campaigns. ]

From a PR standpoint, we need some seriousss damage control :think:

I'm not worried people can think what they want i dun care as long as i didn't do anything wrong people can go stay in their caves for all i care.

 

[nixontkl]

Must be the A100. But please, the CS sony community is quite close-knit, we don't condone such bad behavior (results in scoldings). so it must be someone who's not part of the regular group.

do pardon me, is the scolding refering to me scolding the person pointed out? just quoting the phrase 'monkey' and I am not targeting any group in the fourm.

just wish to share and maybe warn models and other photographers about the existence of this bad egg in our CS community (or not). like this nude shooting session issue, that guy may and can create a negative image for ppl who use camera. we dont live alone and our actions have impact to others be it small or big, good or bad, preferably NOT bad.

a few encounter with him left me with a very bad opinion of him towards model and ethics as a photographer as he often rush to be infront of other photographers at events and give little regards to photographers behind him.

 

[mattlock]

A few points.

The New Paper is just spinning a story that was waiting to happen.
We've highlighted the "sleazy" aspect of all this awhile back (in the appropriate threads).

It is no solution to try to blacklist reporters. They are doing their job and honestly The New Paper is pretty tame.

I would actually advocate that the admin cut to the root of the issue, which is the suppliers.
The admin of Clubsnap should be discerning and have a set of standards as to the organisers of photoshoots. A stamp of approval of sorts, to weed out the organisers who are less credible.

This will also ensure a higher standard of photoshoots, and help to improve the standard of photography that is produced.

Now let me make it clear, I am not against nude/sexy photoshoots. But there's a difference between a sexy photoshoot and a outing solely to ogle at women.
We have some talented shooters here who do a good job making girls look sexy (flipfreak for one)
They should be able to take their photos without having to deal with the perception of being perverts as articles such as these seem.

If the admin of Clubsnap is tolerant of sexy photoshoots, then they should have a set of standards which they can stand behind and respond to brickbats regarding the issue of sleaze. This will also help the community that supports Clubsnap to have a healthy conscience of sorts in regards to such issues.

My argument here might come across as a slight contradiction of points but hopefully the main jist goes through

Finally, I am proud of this community and most of the people I've met from here are lovely people, so I hope we can move forward together to develop this community.

 

[mattlock]

*mod mode off*

nightmare, I'm an advocate of permanent solutions; and it's one of two ways, one - educate to change attitudes (which is next to impossible), two - to kill all organised model shoots altogether (which makes no damn difference to me - I don't do posed people).

Banning just the nudes or lingerie or bikini or give-half-ball shoots won't work in the long run - eventually organisers will just find ways of disguising and packaging the sleaze shoots as decent ones, or as reported on the TNP - turned into a nude shoot on the egging of photographers.


*mod mode on*

I don't own ClubSnap, so other than my feedback, it's not within my authority to do anything else.

But we love to hear whatever solutions that you, and the rest of the community can come up with; perhaps with community-policing the situation will be better.

If we have organisers who are dedicated to the artform that they are offering and not just opportunistically appealing to the lowest common denominator of sex, chances are they would be longer term, have a larger stake in the business and be more responsible.

If you regulate the suppliers, and make them more responsible to the admin then they have an incentive to maintain higher standards to keep their earnings coming in. This will also cause the "demand" to move to the forums which offer the more sleazy shoots.

Also, this is off topic but we should consider pushing this community closer together by having some sort of physical presence instead of maintaining everything online.

This could take the form of an exhibition of some of the photos we take. This will help in the education of the public and will give more legitimacy to this forum.
I believe in education, it's a long drawn process but it works.

 

[Rashkae]

The admin of Clubsnap should be discerning and have a set of standards as to the organisers of photoshoots. A stamp of approval of sorts, to weed out the organisers who are less credible.

I don't think credibility or standards has anything to do with it. More like being able to pay the advertising fee.