Nikon D300 / D3 what effect on Canon?

[Russ]

haha.. good one.. me same same also...

Me too - I use 1 focussing point 99+% of the time and once in a while I use the one to the left and the one to the right - when I am fussy about rectilinear focussing errors caused by focussing and recomposing.

Focussing points:
3 will do me fine. 7/9 is too many. 45/51 is bordering on ridiculous.

MP
6MP will do me find 99% of the time. Once in a while, nice to have 10+ I suppose when I need to crop

LCD
230kp is 585x390. On a 3 inch it is about 240 dpi. We bitch about the 1176x784 that the Nikons have with 470dpi resolution. But remember the days of the 1.5 or 1.8 inch LCDs? Size more important than resolution.

Speed
2 fps will do me fine.

Startup time
Now that is important. 2.5s on my 300d is terrible.

Noise
Now that is also important. The number of noisy shots I have because I have to use a fast shutter speed (IS can fix camera shake, NOTfast moving subjects) therefore high ISO is - too many


I recall a Mercedes Benz advert of an old man who drives an early 1960s MB 180 quoting the owner saying "I am not through with this one yet"..... Perhaps I need to take that attitude with my 300D??


Anyway, all this competition is good - imagine if only Canon had decent lenses and made decent DSLRs - we may be now drooling over the D60 that has just been announed in 2007 to replace the D30 after 6 years and the price is $5000. Like the most East Germans who, if they well off, only had Trabants to drive for a few decades until the wall collapsed.

 

[Gunbucker]

A damnn hilarious and corny retaliation from Canon would be to release the long-way-overdue rumored EOS 3D to kill D3... 3D and D3... mannn... hahahha!

My own pipedream 3D specs...

* Full-Frame 16mp sensor
* Dual DIGIC3
* 1D AF system with EOS3 eye controlled AF
* Accepts both EF and EF-S lenses
* 9.5fps with 1.0x crop captures
* 15fps with 1.6x crop captures (did I stretch it too much here? hahahaha!)
* Weather sealing
* ISO 100 to 3200 (expandable to ISO50 to 6400)

Of course, so as to not make themselves look like fools, they will have to release the much dreaded 1D Mark3"N" with 15fps in 1.3x crop at the same time as the 3D. This way, Canon still maintains market leadership in their respective segments:

1Ds Mark 3 (leader in image quality for 35mm DSLR market)
1D Mark3 N (undisputed leader in sheer, brute speed)
3D (leader in speed for 35mm DSLR market a.k.a "D3 Killer")

 

[Viewpoint]

Me too - I use 1 focussing point 99+% of the time ... I recall a Mercedes Benz advert of an old man who drives an early 1960s MB 180 quoting the owner saying "I am not through with this one yet"..... Perhaps I need to take that attitude with my 300D??

Exactly -- I fully agree with you. Don't get me wrong, I am all for technical progress, competition, better features, etc. But I think there is a danger of falling for all the marketing hype. Look at the current crop of DSLRs from all the manufacturers today -- they are all excellent already. It's just like PCs -- they have become more capable and faster than us the users.

Allow me to make this point bluntly (no offense intended): if you are unable to take good photos with a D200 or 30D (or even D70 or 10D), then God help you -- the latest D500, 70D, whatever D, will not.

 

[theveed]

I wonder if eventually, these two giants will make in-body IS, super CCD-like sensors but with FF and CMOS cleanliness, etc...

They used to claim they'll never go Live View or FF...

 

[kuoann]

Exactly -- I fully agree with you. Don't get me wrong, I am all for technical progress, competition, better features, etc. But I think there is a danger of falling for all the marketing hype. Look at the current crop of DSLRs from all the manufacturers today -- they are all excellent already. It's just like PCs -- they have become more capable and faster than us the users.

Allow me to make this point bluntly (no offense intended): if you are unable to take good photos with a D200 or 30D (or even D70 or 10D), then God help you -- the latest D500, 70D, whatever D, will not.

Has anyone in this or other threads said that he hopes a new cameras will help him take more creative photos? No. So I think its presumtious (not to mention deregartory) to imply that we who are excited by camera advancements are inferior photographers trying to compensate in technology what we lack in creativity.
Such comments are uncalled for.

What new DSLR features do are automate the MECHANICS of photography taking. It frees the photographer to concentrate on CREATIVE aspects. I don't think people who crave new cameras are confusing the two issues. New computers and sensors allow us to automate more or improve processes, or improve image quality. What's wrong with that?

eg. More accurate, faster AF that works in low light. Higher ISOs with lower noise. Faster FPS. Bigger viewfinder. Dust reduction. Full Frame sensors.....
... ALL worthwhile and DESIRABLE improvements.

The real issue, as several people have pointed out, is that the low-mid end users (and there are alot of us!) are sick and tired of being on the short end of Canon's marketing stick.

Nikon bring it on!

 

[phoakm]

A damnn hilarious and corny retaliation from Canon would be to release the long-way-overdue rumored EOS 3D to kill D3... 3D and D3... mannn... hahahha!

My own pipedream 3D specs...

* Full-Frame 16mp sensor
* Dual DIGIC3
* 1D AF system with EOS3 eye controlled AF
* Accepts both EF and EF-S lenses
* 9.5fps with 1.0x crop captures
* 15fps with 1.6x crop captures (did I stretch it too much here? hahahaha!)
* Weather sealing
* ISO 100 to 3200 (expandable to ISO50 to 6400)

Of course, so as to not make themselves look like fools, they will have to release the much dreaded 1D Mark3"N" with 15fps in 1.3x crop at the same time as the 3D. This way, Canon still maintains market leadership in their respective segments:

1Ds Mark 3 (leader in image quality for 35mm DSLR market)
1D Mark3 N (undisputed leader in sheer, brute speed)
3D (leader in speed for 35mm DSLR market a.k.a "D3 Killer")

The one in red is what I favour, other than 16mp. ;p

 

[JoshSiao]

What new DSLR features do are automate the MECHANICS of photography taking. It frees the photographer to concentrate on CREATIVE aspects. I don't think people who crave new cameras are confusing the two issues. New computers and sensors allow us to automate more or improve processes, or improve image quality. What's wrong with that?

eg. More accurate, faster AF that works in low light. Higher ISOs with lower noise. Faster FPS. Bigger viewfinder. Dust reduction. Full Frame sensors.....
... ALL worthwhile and DESIRABLE improvements.

The real issue, as several people have pointed out, is that the low-mid end users (and there are alot of us!) are sick and tired of being on the short end of Canon's marketing stick.

Nikon bring it on!

How right! I need to upgrade from 30D becasue the main function I am lacking is a custom function dial. My IR set-up process is slow, set ISO 100, set Manual Mode, bulb, aperture, mirror lockup, set RAW, set tripod, set remote, set composition, set focus, set filter, shoot for 200s.

So ineffect, newer cameras would bring more automation and allow me to compose my IR shots better. The same can be said for others who need more automation.

What can be seen is that the Canon upgrades in the consumer markets from one camera body to the other have been so small and predictable and have not yet heard what the consumers are asking for. The D300 and D3 in some respects is like a bombshell. We are asking why Nikon has been able to push such quantum leaps within one difference in body and Canon has only been releasing in small steps, and hence been loosing out in the consumer market. Now we even fear the pro level sales may be hit somewhat.

 

[gundugundu]

Forgot to add...

I'm also waiting for all the die hard "blah-who-needs-full-frame" Nikonians to do an about face and confess to actually needing / liking full frame :devil: :bsmilie:

I love my 5D!

haha i love my 5D too! it rox!
at the same time, i dun think i'll dump my nikon system

 

[Viewpoint]

What can be seen is that the Canon upgrades in the consumer markets from one camera body to the other have been so small and predictable and have not yet heard what the consumers are asking for. The D300 and D3 in some respects is like a bombshell. We are asking why Nikon has been able to push such quantum leaps within one difference in body and Canon has only been releasing in small steps, and hence been loosing out in the consumer market. Now we even fear the pro level sales may be hit somewhat.

Well, if you check some of the discussions over in the N camp, you will find the same questions being asked, ie., why did it take so long for Nikon to come up with a full frame camera, and why ONLY 12 MP?

Really, when the dust settles, what is so wonderfully new and desirable in the D300? Viewed differently, what are the new features that you will use all the time in the D300 that you don't have with the D200? Nikon users also appear to be a frustrated lot -- and it is totally unnecessary -- at least in my view.

I think any modern DSLR today is more than adequate for the job -- the rest is sheer "feel good" factor that does not mean much. Eg, how many times will you shoot at 8-10 fps? Nice to have but not at all necessary. I need a good still camera, not a movie camera!

 

[ak6110]

i think its a good thing. i read somewhere on this forum that the way canon and nikon market their good is by taking turns to launch the big boys.

So while canon launch their MkIII. nikon kept quiet. and now nikon launch their d3 canon will probably keep quiet. when they keep quiet they usually focus on the consumer products more. So at the end both company benefits from the eveness of the market and doesnt allow the competitors to rise.

Im sure canon will come out with a 5DmkII in a few mths.. but probably expect another monster from nikon next mid year too.. :think:

According to the trend, Nikon takes about 2-3 years to come out a new model. So for now they just lunch the D3 and D300, it would take them another 3 year to have new model again.

 

[JoshSiao]

Lets not degrade into a debate over whether newer features make better photgraphers or not or that you would never really use the different features. New features are always nice to have in a camera. Rather to have all in one than and use few than to have few and blame not having the feature in your camera when you need it. Kouann has put it so nicely:

I don’t get it. Why is it every time excitement bubbles up over a new camera feature, some wet blanket will come and deride progress with the ‘its not going to make you a better photographer’ line?

I have a different mindset. I embrace technological progress.
We take autofocus, in-camera exposure metering, auto flash power metering etc all for granted now. Yet, all these features were once-upon-a-time ‘new’. So too, today’s new advancements will come to be regarded as ‘standard’ and ‘useful’ in due time.

Supposing Canon or Nikon were giving out free upgrades to existing users, would you happily go and trade in your old camera for the newest toy? Of course you would! Everybody appreciates new features.

Honestly, the ‘its not going to make you a better photographer’ is just our way of rationalisation. It helps us cope with our financial limitations of not being able to regularly throw good money away for the newest incremental upgrade.

Lets instead think of what the effect of the new Nikon cameras have on Canon. Is it wrong then to hope canon will pump nice things into the 5D mark II? I do hope that they do wake up and do so, or I fear the loss of even the semi-pro market. The only thing as I said is that they have to come up with something clever in the 5D that attracts buyers yet does not hurt their 1Ds-Mark III or 1D-Mark III sales.

 

[Garion]

Read the first post of this thread on dpreview.com forums:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&thread=24495375

The poster is absolutely spot on in his assessment of the current situation, and sums up the title of this thread perfectly.

 

[Viewpoint]

Lets not degrade into a debate over whether newer features make better photgraphers or not or that you would never really use the different features. New features are always nice to have in a camera.

I appreciate where you are coming from but you need to bear in mind that the impact of Nikon's new cameras on Canon will depend on an assessment of how important or groundbreaking are the new features/capabilities. Some are clearly excited about the new stuff, others are not. So let's hear both sides. Name calling is really uncalled for. If one is not open to opinions, why post, let alone start a new thread...

 

[kuoann]

Remember the Canon 300D? We are talking about a company that is happy to sell you hardware with features dilberately disabled in software because market segmentation is more important to them than consumer satisfaction.

Might I remind you that alot of features can be implented at minimal additional cost.
Cast your thoughts back 20 years. Remember how a $600 mid range EOS 30 gave you eye-controlled focus, focus assist lamp, whilst $2000+ would buy a weather sealed, all-singing, all dancing, top of the line model? I'll bet that, if they wanted, alot of niceties (indeed essentials), could be included in low-mid end models at minimal costs.... but they won't.
That's what we're peeved about.

Weather sealing, fast AF that works in low light, high ISO, low noise, better ergonomics, larger viewfinders, better LCD's etc... I'll bet MOST non-pro photographers would appreciate these features EVERYDAY. Even the less critical features like 10fps and dust reduction will be welcome on certain days.

Nikon has lagged Canon in technological breakthroughs. They have survived all along by simply including everything they can afford to throw in at each price point. Similarly, now that they've acquired new abilities, they have straightaway released them to the mid end market. :thumbsup:

Thank you, Nikon.... for kicking Canon's complacent butt.

 

[Gunbucker]

Read the first post of this thread on dpreview.com forums:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&thread=24495375

The poster is absolutely spot on in his assessment of the current situation, and sums up the title of this thread perfectly.

Garion, thank you so much for sharing that. Very well put!

Nikon did try to play Canon's segmented game by having two sub-segments for their pro line up (the D2H and D2X), which is a departure from their film day glory (F5). They really made a bold move, and yes, hopefully have taught Canon a hard lesson (i.e., "Stop dicking around and move forward! Coz if you don't, we will!").

For this incompetence in product strategy, Canon will have to eat humble pie for at least another 12 to 18 months if not more. Swiftly and mercilessly is the "World's Fastest DSLR" crown and bragging rights taken away from them. And as a company that pride's itself in being the speed demon for sports and action photography, this is unadulterated embarrassment at its coldest.

From the past writings from Chuck Westfall, Canon did plan to let go for the APS-H and merge into just one flagship DSLR. But alas, greed befalls them.

As a Canon user, I'm saddened by the slack shown by Canon, but at the same time glad that competition is really going to heat up now, eventually and rightfully benefiting us consumers.

 

[An drew]

Read the first post of this thread on dpreview.com forums:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&thread=24495375

The poster is absolutely spot on in his assessment of the current situation, and sums up the title of this thread perfectly.

Garion, thanks for sharing.

From the thread at dpreview it looks like what we are saying here is not just a local reaction but a long pent-up reaction from the photographic community world-wide.

I think the marketing people at Canon needed to remember that they are supposed to be delighting customers and not milking them always. We are always ready to part with our hard earned money, just give us the goodies.

 

[gryphon]

Canon's song of victory used to be

1) FF (now Nikon also have liao)
2) Fastest (beaten by Nikon liao)
3) Digic (EXPEED seems to deliver more, as Canon needs dual processor to equal Nikon's one)
4) High ISO noise - ok, this one we have to wait until the full reviews from those sweet-sweet Nikons.

In hope we wait....

:think: makes me wanna jump ship.
Then again... I love Canon Service Centre

 

[nightwolf75]

:think: makes me wanna jump ship.
Then again... I live Canon Service Centre

make dat u live at CSC... :bsmilie:

 

[dEthANGeL]

make dat u live at CSC... :bsmilie:

He's still missing the coffee machine @ CSC .. and the *ahem* :bsmilie:

 

[CYRN]

Canon's song of victory used to be

1) FF (now Nikon also have liao)
2) Fastest (beaten by Nikon liao)
3) Digic (EXPEED seems to deliver more, as Canon needs dual processor to equal Nikon's one)
4) High ISO noise - ok, this one we have to wait until the full reviews from those sweet-sweet Nikons.

In hope we wait....

Based on specs Nikon seems to have a coup over Canon, especially during the 20th anniversary of their EOS mount.

However, I'd say lets hold comments till the products are out and real world side-to-side comparision be made. FF does bring it's own set of headaches, high speed FF will see the shutter and mirror assembly being really taxed. Also FF without automatic dust reduction might mean they will start to feel the impact of having too many bunnies on their pics for their liking.