How to save a noisy pic?

[yanyewkay]

Ok, we got to do this the *** show-and-tell style. I will quote you again

Just wanna add to some of the questions already answered, I do face some noise problems too on my D70. While shooting in ISO200 produces almost no noise, sometimes it is not adequate. I tried using Neat Image (freeware trial version), the results in reducing noise is good but the downside of it, it smoothens a lot of things (like the subject's face). Sometimes, the result looks so doll-like, which is something I want to avoid.

Firstly, you start by saying you face noise problems. Ok fair enough this thread is about noise.
Then you said 'While shooting in ISO200', after which you further reinforced the idea of noise being the subject by saying you run the picture through Neat Image. From the inferences, I can only gather that you are facing noise problems while shooting in ISO200, it wasn't clean enough so you ran it through Neat Image.

I wasn't the only one whom was misled by you (ref post #23 & #24) and you refused to acknowledge this. When asked to clarify, you brushed it off by saying we're making life tough for you.

post #29 I asked

so your 'inadequate' refer to inadequate clean or inadequate bright?

you assume everyone knew what you were talking about. So I assumed that you were talking about noise.

You did not say you were shooting high ISO and you ran the high ISO pictures through neat image. The only reference everyone had was
- ISO200
- noise
- "not adequate" quoted as vague

So if you are asking about how to reduce noise in a picture taken with high ISO , isn't that what the TS is asking?

If you take the time to re-read through all the posts, many have cited you as being unclear or vague. If you don't intend to be clear and concise in your questions, I would think that you are trying to stir up confusion and trouble in here.

I doubt there is any point trying to help you further since you are more interested in defending yourself and making youreslf look as if you are a victim than learning photography.

 

[Zeckson Chow]

Okay, fair enough. Make sense. I do apologize for my unclear statements in my previous posts.

 

[_espn_]

Okay. Thanks for your observation. Can you also share with me how I should be rectifying this problem?

I pinpointed your problem, so you tell me what should you do to overcome the problem.

In case you thought I was being sacarstic in my reply - I wasn't. At lesat not in this thread - yet.

I'm speaking from experience from shooting at ISO200 and had a workflow that caused excessive graininess.

Up to you to think for yourself. I'm not a theory person, I'm a practical person.

 

[_espn_]

Oh... Does it help? You mean only when I post up my noisy picture then you are able to help? If I don't post any, there is no way that anybody can tell me how to reduce the level of noise in images resulted from shooting in high ISOs?

Do you even understand what noise is and how it even appears on the images?

 

[_espn_]

ISO200 by my standards isn't high. you were the one that said ISO200 resulted in noisy pics and you didn't want to run the images through a noise reduction software. I'm really interested to see how noisy an ISO200 picture can get, thus my request for you to post the ISO200 "noisy" picture.

It is a known fact that shooting at high ISO will result in noisy pictures, if you understood how the sensors work. However, if you insist in noise free images yet shooting at high ISOs you might have to resort to a better sensor cooling techniques such as phase change or peltier cooling attached to the sensor directly. This technique has been used successfully in astroimaging http://www.astrocam.org/cooling.htm more extermist have attached plates running liquid nitrogen to cool the sensor below zero.

A cheaper and more viable alternative is to change to a CMOS based DSLR body.

Have I answered your question?

A wrong workflow and inability to understand basics in photography will not lead to any better noisefree images even with a CMOS DSLR body.

 

[_espn_]

I am wondering, is what I said really unclear? Was it very long winded? In the first place, I never say that I don't find shooting in ISO200 is not cool enough. I said shooting in ISO200 produces almost no noise. I also said sometimes shooting in ISO200 is not adequate. Why inadequate? Because the scenario I gave in exhibition halls. Why? Because the result is always dark pictures. So what to do? Common sense from experience shooters will agree increasing the ISO sensitivity will help, as one of the ways.

PLBV. Think. I don't have a ladle big enough for you. Is noise everything? Is high ISO everything? Why do you get dark pictures?

And if you think you can pick up the answers from reading books and trying to apply it theorotically, you'll never understand your problem.

Having high ISOs will definitely result in noisy pictures, this is also something that almost every photographer will know. So the threadstarter asked if there are ways to reduce the noise. Obviously, some pictures have already been shot with high ISOs and resulted in noisy pictures, that's why he asked. I added my own experience in this attention, which in still inline with the threadstarter's intention.

You sure? A noisy image is as noisy as only when you expose it wrongly. Do you know ISO100 can also have noisy images?

You sure only high ISOs result in noisy images? Tsk tsk tsk, and you still want to mentor people in photography?

Theory is NOT enough.

Then instead of getting some good answers or alternatives, I have people saying I am long winded, unclear, need to be like a crystal, post pictures, etc. which does not even answer any close to the intended question at all. If there are no possible ways, I can understand because I have been asking around too. Perhaps it might be due to the people I ask or the limited number of quality people I asked, I cannot get a good answer to this question. So I thought I could try and see if anybody in ClubSNAP knows any how-to or alternative workaround. Ha...

For starters, you don't even know what noise is and what it does and how to avoid it. You are only replying based on YOUR theory knowledge which like studies in school, is totally impractical when facing real life situations.

Don't use goating to get answers, be humble and learn from those who are trying to lead you into the right way.

If one does not have any good answer to this question or is not prepared with any answer at all, one try not to contribute unnecessarily to the thread and stop wasting time and effort. This is what I abide by and not asking people to explain this and that or post pictures whereby even all these are done and still cannot get any answers. Thanks.

Tsk tsk. If you realised, you don't have any good answer yourself. Can you even answer yanyewkay and khari and my questions? :dunno:

 

[_espn_]

Oh yes, I forgot to add...

Thanks YYK for giving the idea of to a CMOS based DSLR body. Not too sure how much it will cost as I am not the extremist he refered on his post. I can live with the noise, just that when there is a question like this, I would love to find out too. It's good to have noise-free images though. Please read carefully, people, I said it is good to have, not must have. Please don't come and tell me I am not clear again ah.

Obviously you do not understand sacarsm and why YYK mentioned CMOS. It will not help you even if you do no understand how noise works. For goodness sake, get your mind off the equipment!

To contribute my part to the question, I have heard some experienced photographers mentioned of an alternative but it might cost a little money. They said, invest on a good lens that offers vibration reduction. This could be an alternative to getting noise reduction software which also smoothen out a lot of details. The reason behind this thought being known that high ISOs will definitely result in noisy pictures and a non-cost way to reduce the noise is to shoot in low ISOs. Having said that, shooting in low ISOs in exhibition halls will result in underexposed images if you are standing from far zooming at 200mm even at F2.8. By using a good lens offering good vibration reduction, you can shoot at low ISOs and long shutter speeds to get a good exposure and still maintain sharp images. One may argue that why need VR? Get a cheaper means by mounting it on tripod or monopod. The question here is, is it practical to carry your tripod in a people-packed exhibition? Does the monopod work well ensuring you blur-free images on a non VR lens with long exposures?

Hearsay? How does VR help in NR? Hearsay is not concrete! Do you even understand what it mean or what it does? You're still on the hi-ISO = noisy image theory!!!!

Get your mind off equipment. 70-200VR ain't going to help if you don't understand exposure, noise limitations/habits and photography.

Always consider the money factor when it comes to recommendations because you are going to spend the money to get the needed stuff if you don't already have one. You can try borrowing the stuff too if you can find. If you are very rich, yes, you can get anything you want as long as you are happy with it. But hey, we are not rich so we have to do something practical and of course, cost effective to get the best results our current limitation can offer.

Do I make any sense? Am I unclear?[/FONT]

You're going about in circles and not understanding but trying to continuously show your ignorance in emphasizing hard on hi-ISO = noisy images. You are also trying to teach others based on your theory and hearsay - VR will help in less noisy images.

Finally you are also telling others - indirectly - you need to be rich to be in photography and/or to get less noisy images.

You still have a long way to go.

 

[_espn_]

Prismatic, haven't I already asked this? You think I like to be long-winded? Some nice guy say I am unclear, some even say I need to esprain and showed me CCTV... Isn't this more annoying?

You need to open your mind and accept other people's POV. Unless you're a guru in photography (which obviously from your grey explanations and flawed thinking of how photography should be) you don't need to talk that much, shoot more and understand.

 

[GmbH.]

someone did a high ISO noise test here.
maybe you fellas may want to check it out.

 

[Zeckson Chow]

Dear ESPN, you sure took a lot of effort reading through all my posts and quote me. Thanks. I will talk less because I am not a guru.

My intention in this thread = To find out if there is a possible way to reduce noise in images resulted from shooting in high ISOs and long exposures.

I am not interested to know what noise is at a scientific or technical level. I only know it as those speckles that appear in images at a user level. That's all I know and that's all I care. If you have answers at user level that can answer me, please tell me. I just want to know what I should do, have, or avoid in order to have noise reduced.

I can live with the noise, not a big problem. I am only interested to know if it can be reduced or avoided. The answers I hope to expect are:

• Do this.
• Don't do that.
• Get this if you have money.
• Do that, get that if you don't want to spend money.
• Try it.

That's all I am looking for.

From my "hearsay",

1. Shoot in ISO200 to avoid having too much noise
2. Use slow shutter speed to try get correct exposure
3. Open aperture to the widest it can offer at that situation
4. Hand hold the camera because space constraints
5. Use VR lens to counter camera shake due to hand hold.

Results may not be impressive but it may beat having nothing at all.

Thanks.

 

[TMC]

I got a good advice from a certain yoda character, expose correctly and even at ISO 800 noise is not obvious. Learn how to get accurate exposure first.

 

[yanyewkay]

Show and tell time again.

My humble P&S - Fujifilm F11
settings: ISO800 f/2.8 1/4

100% crop for all the pixel peepers out there.

sorry for the OOF crop. focus point was at the front of the bag.

photo resized, added the box, did a 100% crop and added my name.
No cheating done. All done in MS Paint.

ISO800 and I don't see the speckles you described associated with high ISO.
Don't say my P&S better than your DSLR hor~

 

[yanyewkay]

A wrong workflow and inability to understand basics in photography will not lead to any better noisefree images even with a CMOS DSLR body.

I see.. I normally try to reduce my workflow as much as possible by trying as far as possible to get the shot right the first time. My above pictures shot with a CCD based P&S :embrass:

 

[Zeckson Chow]

Okay, try this image. I have to resize it because original image is too big. Look at the blue patch and notice the noise level. As I said, I can live with this noise level but I will be interested in knowing how to reduce them further. Not a must but it will be good to have.

 

[TMC]

dude, show us a 100% crop of the blue patch from the original image. no matter how good our eyesight is, no one will be able to see the noise from the pic you posted.

 

[Del_CtrlnoAlt]

wah ZC dio shoot... think best way to save a noisy pic, use a voice recorder... ;p

anyway, agree with TMC, i think you try to upload your original pic then we see the original, its better.

 

[_espn_]

Dear ESPN, you sure took a lot of effort reading through all my posts and quote me. Thanks. I will talk less because I am not a guru.

I'm no poser like any other forums or anything, I will just be frank.

My intention in this thread = To find out if there is a possible way to reduce noise in images resulted from shooting in high ISOs and long exposures.

Sigh, still at it? Do you even wonder what I'm trying to tell you across the previous posts?

I am not interested to know what noise is at a scientific or technical level. I only know it as those speckles that appear in images at a user level. That's all I know and that's all I care. If you have answers at user level that can answer me, please tell me. I just want to know what I should do, have, or avoid in order to have noise reduced.

Read your signature. I quote you, aren't you being contradictory? So now, you're discrediting science and talking art? :dunno:

Answers I have, but they're practical answers, answers which you can't find off books, is that perturbing you now? I've hinted to you the solution you go figure.

I can live with the noise, not a big problem. I am only interested to know if it can be reduced or avoided. The answers I hope to expect are:

• Do this.
• Don't do that.
• Get this if you have money.
• Do that, get that if you don't want to spend money.
• Try it.

That's all I am looking for.

Frankly, I have no idea wtf you're talking about.

From my "hearsay",

1. Shoot in ISO200 to avoid having too much noise
2. Use slow shutter speed to try get correct exposure
3. Open aperture to the widest it can offer at that situation
4. Hand hold the camera because space constraints
5. Use VR lens to counter camera shake due to hand hold.

Results may not be impressive but it may beat having nothing at all.

Thanks.

Hearsay is a powerful thing, but do you even bother to digest and understand for yourself if what's hearsay is feasible/correct/true? Or are you just repeating what others say? Again, I quote your signature, it seems to be just what you are NOT doing.

You might want to consider changing your signature if i) you cannot adhere to it ii) have no idea what you're talking about (not understanding the science) iii) cannot apply the art accordingly iv) have no style of your own v) thinking that by hearsay, you learn everything.

You've been in CS for a year, and I can see you've gone nowhere. Apart from better looking images than your Wendy-girl-next-door hotel room shots, your shots are still snapshots and hold nothing more than snapshots. You still don't understand the science and applying the art.

 

[_espn_]

I got a good advice from a certain yoda character, expose correctly and even at ISO 800 noise is not obvious. Learn how to get accurate exposure first.

He doesn't even understand exposure, noise creation and what his WF is doing for him how to understand you? In his heart he only has books and hearsay, even his signature is contradictory of his behaviour.

 

[_espn_]

I see.. I normally try to reduce my workflow as much as possible by trying as far as possible to get the shot right the first time. My above pictures shot with a CCD based P&S :embrass:

A workflow starts from the moment the shot is taken, if it'd done correctly and the image is correct, then there must be something down the workflow that's gone wrong to produce a not-so-desirable image. That's what I'm trying to drive through somebody's thick stubborn skull.

 

[_espn_]

Okay, try this image. I have to resize it because original image is too big. Look at the blue patch and notice the noise level. As I said, I can live with this noise level but I will be interested in knowing how to reduce them further. Not a must but it will be good to have.

Sigh. You obviously just trying to humour me in your previous early replies and telling me that my effort has gone to waste.