Higher cost for Photographer or Lower margin for Organiser

[Darren]

Now, let's say I want to organise an outing to Pulau Ubin for nature shooters. Do I still need to pay? I think it should be left as it is and the forum serve as a medium for people to get together.

Informal gatherings and outings are not affected. Members are free to organise their get-togethers and meet-ups in the Gatherings and Outings section. For example, Azure's very popular AG outings are not affected as Azure does not charge for participation.

The subscription payment is only for the Workshops, Studio/Model Shoots section where organisers have been advertising their pay-to-participate activities.

Hope this clarifies.

The need for organisers to pay will have to deter those unorganised organisers from coming up with crappy shoots just to make a cut out of it. There, we can see more quality shoot being organised.

We hope so too.

To summarise, the subscriptions will only apply to paid shoots being organised in the Workshops, Studio/Model Shoots section.

 

[Caspere]

....

The need for organisers to pay will have to deter those unorganised organisers from coming up with crappy shoots just to make a cut out of it. There, we can see more quality shoot being organised.

This is interesting..

It did not occur to me that smart organizers that pays these fees can actually "prevent" their turf from being invaded by non-professional organizers. So, essentially, they pay CS a "protection" fee to keep working on their turf without those cheapo organizers competing and bring down their prices?

 

[Static]

i am not a organiser myself, but from what i see, affected organisers will have reduced profit margins if they are not going to raise the price.

and i also do not know if they are even earning from organising shoots too.

i believe cs members should support these organisers more.

I agree

There mayb some organizer who dun earn a single cent from the shoot...

Recently attended one studio shoot... $30 per pax, 4 hours. 4 photographers only. Its more of learning and sharing photography session. $i think is just enuff to pay the model.

 

[Caspere]

Informal gatherings and outings are not affected. Members are free to organise their get-togethers and meet-ups in the Gatherings and Outings section. For example, Azure's very popular AG outings are not affected as Azure does not charge for participation.

The subscription payment is only for the Workshops, Studio/Model Shoots section where organisers have been advertising their pay-to-participate activities.

Hope this clarifies.

We hope so too.

To summarise, the subscriptions will only apply to paid shoots being organised in the Workshops, Studio/Model Shoots section.

I have not organized any shoot before. But I can understand how it might be done. Let's discuss the following scenarios:

Example 1

So if I organize one where I do not collect money, but everybody pays his/her share of costs for the rental of the studio and the lights, and the fees for the model, do I need to pay fees to organize? Since I would definitely be upfront about each of those itemized costs?

Example 1a

What if down the road I get a kick-back $$ from the studio and the models?

Example 1b

What if I get services in kind like free rental/use of studio and free modelling from the models?


Do the above scenarios attract CS admin attention? :think:

CS admin most probably need to define those "possible" benefits considering that such accusations (by any of the CS members) would put in jeopardy our membership status on CS as a casual / no-fee / no-payment organizer. Especially those lots of people who are always very quick with their fingers on the keyboard as well as pointing them?

 

[Darren]

Hi Caspere,
You have raised some valid points. While we (obviously) cannot possibly anticipate all permutations of how one would go about organising paid shoots, we believe we have the major ones covered.

Example 1
So if I organize one where I do not collect money, but everybody pays his/her share of costs for the rental of the studio and the lights, and the fees for the model, do I need to pay fees to organize? Since I would definitely be upfront about each of those itemized costs?

In this scenario, would it be fair to say that the cost of organising this shoot via the forum would also be considered as part of the outlay for the photographer(s) who are participating? After all, if one were to read into this, the rationale of this arrangement is primarily to share the costs between a group of people, and thus the cost of "advertising" to canvas for interested members to join would also need to be included. The benefit, in this example, would be a lower cost between the participants and there may not necessarily be one person who gains more than the others. I say "may" because you give examples below of how one could make additional gains.

Example 1a
What if down the road I get a kick-back $$ from the studio and the models?

Example 1b
What if I get services in kind like free rental/use of studio and free modelling from the models?

Unfortunately, we do not have the capability to monitor such "benefits" and this is probably beyond the scope of our discussion here.

CS admin most probably need to define those "possible" benefits considering that such accusations (by any of the CS members) would put in jeopardy our membership status on CS as a casual / no-fee / no-payment organizer. Especially those lots of people who are always very quick with their fingers on the keyboard as well as pointing them?

There are obviously "benefits" that an organiser gains from such shoots, and not all of them are monetary in nature. From an organisers point of view, some that come to mind are:-
a) Cost-sharing/saving - if a shoot costs $100 to organise, by sharing between 4 people, the organiser now pays only $25.
b) Monetary gains - if the payments by the participants exceed the cost of the shoot.
c) Goodwill - from model(s) or studio or other service provider(s).

I am sure there are other ways one can "benefit" from organising a paid shoot.

Again, we are happy to discuss the scenario that you just gave (of ppl sharing) and we welcome ideas that you may have to help us come to an amicable solution (if there is one).

 

[Canonised]

Unfortunately, we do not have the capability to monitor such "benefits" and this is probably beyond the scope of our discussion here.

This is sounding more and more like our "cheng who" way of explaining the rationale for new charges for services rendered ... :bsmilie:
Actually it is very simple .... if you need to charge, just charge.
I mean there are useful softwares/sites where one can benefit greatly from using them and they are free, and there are also hopeless softwares/links where one has to subscribe to use them ... it is up to the owner.
Either you make it as freeware, shareware, etc... no need to justify, just let the market forces dictate the outcome.

 

[hlkho]

From my opinion, paying those fee to the forum Committee is very reasonable. Since the explanation from the Administrator is really very reasonable, i think not a problem for it even the charges applied with immediate effect.

Maintenance cost is always much more than buying cost. Like for example, when you get married, maybe you just to spend around 20-30K for your preparation, dinner and etc. But to maintain ur wife & kids definitely you need more than that (up to or more than 100X).

"ope this one is a good example"...hehehe

This is the reason & i think very reasonable. FREE member for all of us here is very to share everything meaningful already. Hm...

 

[hlkho]

*FREE Membership at here is considered very meaningful & reasonable already.......

 

[Deadpoet]

My question is very simple.

I am not a paying member of CS.

If I want to organise a paid shoot/workshop, can I do it?

From what I read, I can only organise free activities. This means that I cannot even recover my cost. Isn't that a bit draconian? Which also means, if I have something I like to share with other CS members, I better be willing to pay all cost myself, because I am not allowed to advertise that if I expect other CS members to pay their fair share.

 

[Caspere]

My question is very simple.

I am not a paying member of CS.

If I want to organise a paid shoot/workshop, can I do it?

From what I read, I can only organise free activities. This means that I cannot even recover my cost. Isn't that a bit draconian? Which also means, if I have something I like to share with other CS members, I better be willing to pay all cost myself, because I am not allowed to advertise that if I expect other CS members to pay their fair share.

I think Darren answered already.

See below

Hi Caspere,
You have raised some valid points. While we (obviously) cannot possibly anticipate all permutations of how one would go about organising paid shoots, we believe we have the major ones covered.

In this scenario, would it be fair to say that the cost of organising this shoot via the forum would also be considered as part of the outlay for the photographer(s) who are participating? After all, if one were to read into this, the rationale of this arrangement is primarily to share the costs between a group of people, and thus the cost of "advertising" to canvas for interested members to join would also need to be included. The benefit, in this example, would be a lower cost between the participants and there may not necessarily be one person who gains more than the others. I say "may" because you give examples below of how one could make additional gains.

Unfortunately, we do not have the capability to monitor such "benefits" and this is probably beyond the scope of our discussion here.

There are obviously "benefits" that an organiser gains from such shoots, and not all of them are monetary in nature. From an organisers point of view, some that come to mind are:-
a) Cost-sharing/saving - if a shoot costs $100 to organise, by sharing between 4 people, the organiser now pays only $25.
b) Monetary gains - if the payments by the participants exceed the cost of the shoot.
c) Goodwill - from model(s) or studio or other service provider(s).

I am sure there are other ways one can "benefit" from organising a paid shoot.

Again, we are happy to discuss the scenario that you just gave (of ppl sharing) and we welcome ideas that you may have to help us come to an amicable solution (if there is one).

 

[wazzup]

Sooner later, need to pay to post? Deluxe membership?

Each buy/sell will cost the buyer/seller each 1% cost of the item sold?

Hmmm...

 

[Darren]

Sooner later, need to pay to post? Deluxe membership?

Not going to happen. Period.

Each buy/sell will cost the buyer/seller each 1% cost of the item sold?

Likewise as above statement - not going to happen as long as its personal sales of 2nd hand, used items.

Please don't add in unneeded salt/pepper to this discussion which is focused on organiser's paying to organise paid shoots.

 

[Deadpoet]

I think Darren answered already.

See below

I disagree. The Admin did not address my concern. They agree that example is valid, and it's something that in fact happens. They also admit it that there are many permutations of organising shoots.

My question remains. How will CS treat those who organise occasionally, or those who organise merely to share cost?

Base on my understand, neither group can post in the model shoot/ workshot forum, and neither group may charge if they psot in the outings sub forum.

 

[wazzup]

Not going to happen. Period.

Likewise as above statement - not going to happen as long as its personal sales of 2nd hand, used items.

Please don't add in unneeded salt/pepper to this discussion which is focused on organiser's paying to organise paid shoots.

Those were questions, I'm pretty sure I ended it with a question mark - " ? ".

Glad to know and have the assurance that this will not happen. :thumbsup:

 

[wazzup]

I disagree. The Admin did not address my concern. They agree that example is valid, and it's something that in fact happens. They also admit it that there are many permutations of organising shoots.

My question remains. How will CS treat those who organise occasionally, or those who organise merely to share cost?

Base on my understand, neither group can post in the model shoot/ workshot forum, and neither group may charge if they psot in the outings sub forum.

Hi deadpoet, like MOs, even if beneficial, the organisers already have to pay for a minimum of 3 months. So I think your question is pretty well answered

 

[Deadpoet]

Hi deadpoet, like MOs, even if beneficial, the organisers already have to pay for a minimum of 3 months. So I think your question is pretty well answered

Afraid so. Sad, but inevitable.

 

[Youhong]

Personally, I do not see much of a difference of one organising an outing and a model shoot. It is just about a get together matter. Hence, I think anyone is free to organise any kind of shoot, be it a nature shoot, model shoot, TFCD, Studio etc...

And yes, I see no significant difference from the B&S section as well.

 

[Bobman]

Can I say something? What I said has nothing to do with the CS Admin, but just thoughts.

Since we organisers here are making money in this forum (those regular ones, like myself), I am sure we got no problem to pay for the advertisements. As for those who are ad hoc organisers (like what DP mentioned), maybe CS Admin may think of something like paying by per ads basis, eg S$ 20.00 per ads.

And for those who said the shoot is just to share cost or non profit, I believe you can post it under gathering or services stating its cost sharing basis and the joining can share among themselves. If you post something like 6 photographers each $50.00 etc.... CS will take it as "Business" more than "Shoot for fun".

If you don't mind, just suggesting,

1. Monthly ads eg 100 per month
2. Per Ads eg 20 per post
3. Those free or sharing cost model shoot I think these can be posted in Gathering sub forum since it is like a form of gathering.

Lastly, I believe that in the future CS gatherings or events, these funds can be used to hire more Professional Models rather then the Admin has to ask for sponsorship.

Don't you think the photographers are more than happy??? To shoot good and quality models. Maybe CS can have a yearly Model Shoot Contest ...

Anyway, if there is no wind, there is no waves. We got ourselves to blame..........

 

[Deadpoet]

uncle bob, after all the dust has settled, I will test the system, see how fast they clam down.

I hope you are correct. Not that I organise any shoot on CS, but if admin clamp down, then, it's CS's loss.

 

[xziredmp]

I agree

There mayb some organizer who dun earn a single cent from the shoot...

Recently attended one studio shoot... $30 per pax, 4 hours. 4 photographers only. Its more of learning and sharing photography session. $i think is just enuff to pay the model.

My question is very simple.

I am not a paying member of CS.

If I want to organise a paid shoot/workshop, can I do it?

From what I read, I can only organise free activities. This means that I cannot even recover my cost. Isn't that a bit draconian? Which also means, if I have something I like to share with other CS members, I better be willing to pay all cost myself, because I am not allowed to advertise that if I expect other CS members to pay their fair share.

Sooner later, need to pay to post? Deluxe membership?

Each buy/sell will cost the buyer/seller each 1% cost of the item sold?

Hmmm...

To Static:

Its true that not every organiser earn a single cent. because from what i see, my buddy organising those shoots, he is forking out money to pay his models first. and i heard previously he paid the models until he has no money to eat for lunch... :bsmilie: (for that day...) :bsmilie:

To DP:

I can see that most organisers do not mind paying the cost of advertisting on cs. but mainly because its the cost that everyone is concerned with. its as good as paying for another shoot as a member. of course its nothing compared to what the experienced organisers are earning, but what about those organisers who are just starting out ?

i believe its a good system to deter people from making a quick buck. but its the pricing most people who are concerned with.

To Wazzup:

wah.. each item sell 1%, like that if i sell my inventory, i will be losing blood liao... :bsmilie: