I am not a lawyer and I do not proclaim to know much about law. But I do know how to read, and I do have friends who are qualified to talk about law. I had waited for my friend to return from his trip, and asked his opinion on this issue.
This friend of mine has a masters in law. And had written a monograph on litigation issues in certain professions.
These are his opinions and you are free to disgree with him. I do not know you and what your credentials are. But others had raised issues with some of the things you had mentioned thus far. But you justify your inaccuracies by saying that you did so because you are talking to non-lawyers.
So, talking to non-lawyers justifies inaccuracies? Wonderful piece of legal concepts! (see syl's comments and your reply)
waileong said:
You wanted to raise the issue of unfair insinuation and "passing slur on the professional intergrity of another member". If you take this to a natural conclusion, it would mean that you are saying someone has defamed or slandered the member (gravemaid, in this case).
Yes you are right. Taking what ZC said to its natural conclusion means that he had passed defamatory remarks on Gravemaid.
waileong said:
If gravemaid honestly feels she has been slandered or defamed, she can sue. But you can't, since you're not the one being slandered or defamed.
I like to use certain words on you, but for now, I restrain myself. Who can sue is not the issue here. In fact, even if I were Gravemaid, I would not bother to sue. Just not worth the trouble. However, the fact that I won't sue does not mean that I accept ZC's comments as innocuous.
There is such a thing called self-policing in my profession. I have no idea what kind of things you do. But in my profession, we practise self-regulation. We do not sue deviant "members" on behalf of "clients", but when we see wrong doings, we will take action to report to relevant authorities, after giving due warnings to the deviant member.
waileong said:
Just be aware that to sue for slander or defamation, the plaintiff has to be quite sure of his own case, since losing means also paying the other party's legal costs.
Stick to the issue and decide whether unjust slur had been cast on Gravemaid. But of course you do not think so.
waileong said:
First, the plaintiff would have to prove that ZC uttered the words in public, and that the words used were actually libellous. That's not easy in this case, given that what ZC said was, "if XXX did not deliver, then XXX did not fulfil her obligations". Note the "if". In my view, ZC made a comment, not a statement of fact.
For someone who "professes"to know the law (or write like you know the law), you have an awful inability to read properly.
1 ZC "uttered" his infamous words in public. Right here in CS. You have any problem with that? You will contest that?
2 Was what ZC said "libellous".
You either can't read, can't quote, or can't ......... (add in the words yourself)
ZC did not say "If XXX did not deliver, then XXX did not fulfil her obligations". Go read that again. Or do you need reading glasses?
For your convenience I will write what ZC said.
And I will make sure you can see properly.
ZC wrote: " If this is an greed (sic) bikini shoot, then other photographers and you are getting is not what you are paying for"
Can you read and see the difference? Or shall I take you through word by word?
Of course based on your erroneous quotation of ZC's words, ZC's words were not libellious, and can constitue "fair comments".
Unfortunately, you quoted ZC completely wrongly!
This is what my friend who has a masters in law told me about ZC's original words (not the erroneous quote you ascribed to him)
The simple interpretation of ZC's words says that since the agreement is a bikini shoot, (it is), then according to ZC, Gravemaid did not deliver.
The word "if" is not hypothetical. There is a presupposition-consequence relationship. To my friend, ZC's statement was out of line.
He also gave me some interesting insights into such contractual agreements. But given your er, "ability" to read, I better not confuse issue firther.
waileong said:
Second, she'd have to prove that the words actually hurt her reputation and standing, and caused her to be subject to ridicule, odium and public contempt.
Thankfully, unlike certain people here who can't read and think and quote others properly, most members are able to see the nonsense spewed by ZC, and will ignore what he said.
waileong said:
Also, remember that "fair comment" is a common defence for slander/defamation suits. Fair comment means that, under the circumstances, it would be a reasonable conclusion that could be drawn by a reasonable man. Whether the comment is right or wrong is unimportant. What is important is whether there was a reasonable basis for the comments.
???? You can have "fair" comment? (joking!)
waileong said:
In this case, having seen no photos of anyone in full bikini, even after making repeated requests to post such photos, it would appear that "fair comment" could be a viable defence.
Totally irrelevant. Even if not a single image of any model in "full' bikini is ahown, it is still irrelevant. The issue is not whether any picture is shown. I hope
even you can understand that now.
waileong said:
Anyway, all this is legal theory. I could be right, I could be wrong, it depends on the facts of the case, whether I interpreted the law correctly, how well it is argued in court, etc.
Morally, it's a separate matter. You feel he was out of line. I don't, but I doubt anyone can change your feelings.
So now, you can be right, and you can also be wrong. And of course it "depends on the facts of the case". I think you have a great talent. Given your excellent ability to meander here and there, you might have a future in certain professions!
In any case the facts here are clear. You want me to repeat that?
waileong said:
PS In law, it's not about "fair" or "unfair". There is only "guilty" or "not guilty", "true" or "untrue", and "proven" or "unproven".
Now, if you can be right and you can be wrong, then when are you really right or wrong?
And no such thing as "fair" or "unfair"? But there is "fair" comment. But what do I know? I am not a lawyer. Or should there be "true or untrue" comments? Or "proven or unproven" comments"