F11 Vertical Banding - Image Quality Issue

[liveevil]

but the noise looks quite bad huh at ISO1600. Is there a NR setting on the F11? No right? But I guess it is better than other P&S. I see purple fringing too

yours not that bad.... I think mine is worse....but the tech support say its normal when i e-mail them the pic.

this is an example at 100% crop:

 

[wind30]

BTW, my F11 is for sale as my wife doesn't like it.

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=183581

 

[hardcore]

Good news (tentative).

Fuji engineers replaced the "lens unit assembly", and took some photos, sending them to me via email to check if they are acceptable. From what I saw, the banding is basically non-existant after the change. I told them I was okay with the results.

Unfortunately, I'm overseas now so I cant collect the camera to see it for myself.

After I collect the camera and play around with it for a while, I'll let you guys know.

Bad news. I collected my F11 back from Fuji. Went home, took a few shots to test... unfortunately immediately noticed the banding was still there. I sent my camera back to Fuji again, and they are revisiting the case.

In truth, I think they still dont know what the problem is, although they were kind enough to replace the lens assembly - unfortunately that is not the cause of the problem.

Sample (1st shot!) from the 'repaired' F11:

 

[StreetShooter]

OK I know this one. Only smart people can see the banding, right? Because I sure can't.

 

[hardcore]

OK I know this one. Only smart people can see the banding, right? Because I sure can't.

Haha funny one... okay to make it easier for 'not so smart' people to see the banding, I have applied a sharpening filter to the image. Now the banding (vertical line pattern) should be very obvious...

[

 

[cse1000]

Newbie here and intending to get the F11 or maybe the F30. I have to say I really don't understand what "banding" is and really do not know what to see in the picture.

Appreciate if you can maybe put an arrow or 2 on the picture to point out where the banding is/are.

Much appreciated.

 

[Xing]

OK I know this one. Only smart people can see the banding, right? Because I sure can't.

:bsmilie: me either.... :dunno: cant see anything... maybe I never zoom in 100% to pixel peep all my photos...

 

[hardcore]

Newbie here and intending to get the F11 or maybe the F30. I have to say I really don't understand what "banding" is and really do not know what to see in the picture.

Appreciate if you can maybe put an arrow or 2 on the picture to point out where the banding is/are.

Much appreciated.

The banding is visible across the whole picture, especially in the darker (black, brown, grey) areas. It is a pattern of vertical lines, like:

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

Normally the area should be smooth, or have only a random noise pattern.

These are enhanced photos to show you the difference.

Photo A: Banding present. Sharpened to emphasize banding.

Photo B: Banding removed (X-noise filter). Sharpened.

Compare both. In Photo A, there is the vertical line pattern across the picture. In photo B, there is no vertical line pattern.

The vertical line pattern is called "banding".

 

[wind30]

hardcore,

frankly, like the others, I think the recent pic you posted has 99% noise and maybe 1% banding. Especially the original untouched pic, there isn't much banding and at ISO1600 (I presume) it is more of a noise issue. The noise is so much more than the banding. You have to take a pic at maybe ISO800 where there is less noise and show a better/clearer example of banding to prove your case.

Example, Liveevil's pic above yours has much more banding and very obvious.

 

[wind30]

BTW,

sensors are VERY temperature dependent. Try to test it when it is cool, ie first few shots. When the sensors get hot, it will get noisy.

 

[surge]

i have been using e s2 pro and found that it also have the same problem, mostly in hte shadow areas. i thought it is digital artifacts. didnt know that some camera have some don have. however, the banding problem is not there all the time. when i first got the problem, tried seraching hard thru other pictures but found nothing. then one day took some photos and they are right there. dunno how that happens:dunno:

 

[hardcore]

hardcore,

frankly, like the others, I think the recent pic you posted has 99% noise and maybe 1% banding. Especially the original untouched pic, there isn't much banding and at ISO1600 (I presume) it is more of a noise issue. The noise is so much more than the banding. You have to take a pic at maybe ISO800 where there is less noise and show a better/clearer example of banding to prove your case.

Example, Liveevil's pic above yours has much more banding and very obvious.

You should look at the earlier unmodified pictures that we posted. Here are some examples:

 

[allakazoo]

Hello hardcore, I suspect the banding is due to the noise reduction algo rather than the physical hardware. Why don't you put the cam on a tripod and shoot the same bottle at ISO 80 all the way to 1600. If the banding starts to becomes obvious as the ISO increases, then we have reasons to suspect the software needs some rewriting by fujifilm. Just my two cents.

 

[liveevil]

Hai~~~ getting disappointed with the fujifilm tech support...:thumbsd: E-mail them so many time to explain the vertical bandings in my photos and they keep insisting its noise due to high ISO...

 

[Infocus]

care the issue...

 

[hardcore]

Hai~~~ getting disappointed with the fujifilm tech support...:thumbsd: E-mail them so many time to explain the vertical bandings in my photos and they keep insisting its noise due to high ISO...

E-mailing is no use. Apparently Fuji has not detected / admitted that this as a problem, so their tech support does not know about it. Since they dont know what is causing the problem, they cannot fix it. And unfortunately, A LOT (almost all?) units have the same problem, so replacing the camera is not a solution also.

If you can live without your camera for a while, send it in for repair, and get a tech support incident number - then insist on them repairing / replacing it until they do so. Thats what I am doing now.

However, getting a bit irritated having paid about $600 just to have to send the camera in for repair and spending another $50 or so on taxi fare, while still having no camera.

 

[Yongliang]

E-mailing is no use. Apparently Fuji has not detected / admitted that this as a problem, so their tech support does not know about it. Since they dont know what is causing the problem, they cannot fix it. And unfortunately, A LOT (almost all?) units have the same problem, so replacing the camera is not a solution also.

If you can live without your camera for a while, send it in for repair, and get a tech support incident number - then insist on them repairing / replacing it until they do so. Thats what I am doing now.

However, getting a bit irritated having paid about $600 just to have to send the camera in for repair and spending another $50 or so on taxi fare, while still having no camera.

Ermm...just my personal opinion, I really feel that you should just accept your camera as how it is, ignore the 'problem', and continue to take great pics with the fantastic camera in your hand:

1. First thing first, what makes u so sure your camera is faulty in the first place? Have u ever wondered it could just be a sharpening algorithm issue at high ISO, and even you send in your camera for servicing/repair a million times, the Fuji technician will never solve the problem for you because he cant change the algorithm in the processor.

This camera is already the best in its class for taking ISO 1600 pics, and I'm sure at ISO 1600, there will still definitely be noise issues or other kinds of image issues. You just can't expect 100% acceptable image quality at ISO 1600. There is definitely a trade-off in image quality at ISO 1600. Image a canon ixus user taking pics at high ISO like ISO 800, I'm sure the pics will turn out much worse, and is he going to keep going to Canon and claim that his camera is faulty?


2. Seriously, from my 17" CRT monitor, I couldn't even make out the 'vertical bandings' you mentioned in your 100% crop pics. And how often do you actually print out the full size of your ISO 1600 pics, or even view 100% of your ISO 1600 pics on your computer screen?


3. I feel you are just being a little too paranoid, and instead of keep harping on this 'vertical banding' issue, and getting nowhere, why dont u just accept the camera as it is, and spend your time taking memorable and nice pics instead?


These are just how I feel after following this thread for some time.
Of course you don't have to agree with me, but don't frame me ok?
Cheers.

 

[hardcore]

Ermm...just my personal opinion, I really feel that you should just accept your camera as how it is, ignore the 'problem', and continue to take great pics with the fantastic camera in your hand:

1. First thing first, what makes u so sure your camera is faulty in the first place? Have u ever wondered it could just be a sharpening algorithm issue at high ISO, and even you send in your camera for servicing/repair a million times, the Fuji technician will never solve the problem for you because he cant change the algorithm in the processor.

This camera is already the best in its class for taking ISO 1600 pics, and I'm sure at ISO 1600, there will still definitely be noise issues or other kinds of image issues. You just can't expect 100% acceptable image quality at ISO 1600. There is definitely a trade-off in image quality at ISO 1600. Image a canon ixus user taking pics at high ISO like ISO 800, I'm sure the pics will turn out much worse, and is he going to keep going to Canon and claim that his camera is faulty?

I would agree with you, if not for the following facts:

1. Not all F11s have the banding problem. This means that those F11s that have banding are defective. For me, I want my defective camera fixed.

2. The F10/F11 are best in class for ISO1600 if there is *no banding*. All the review sets do not have banding. I think if the review sets did have the banding, the camera would definitely not be "best-in-class".

3. The banding is still present at not-so-high ISO, like ISO400 (which happens to be used quite often). Compared to other cameras, the quality will definitely be lower.

4. The banding pattern in the F11 photos is very obvious - I noticed the problem independently and immediately. Having used several cameras before this - several Canons, and even a very old Fuji 6900 with SuperCCD - none of them ever had banding patterns in the image. High ISO noise is acceptable, but a fixed pattern is not.

My guess is that this is a CCD manufacturing problem.

 

[beau_simon]

It seems that the F11 has 2 firmware version :- 1.00 and 1.01. Could this be the reason why some sets have this problem and others do not?

 

[nkt]

how do u see the firmware version on the cam ?