Criticisms and comments nowadays...

[ULTRA_MAN]

I believe the posting on public forums as well as sharing pictures with people are good for the deveopment of a photography skill wise as well as style. Its only through the comments as well as the insightful view of other people that we get to see points or things in our images that we ourselves do not or cannot see.
However, posting on the public forums also opens us up to many critics, both good, bad, and inbetween. Photography is a very personal thing, at least to me. And sometimes critique on my pictures make me lose sleep, the onlu reason is could be just because a picture that i though was perfect does not appeal to someone. However, this is life, we cant please everyone all the time.
All this being said, as a community, clubsnap really is a nice place to hang around, and there are more good people than bad people. Let us just try to keep the goodwill amoungst everyone here, and be objective about things.

 

[Wolfgang]

i hope you as a moderator can be more open to all.somehow reading the thread u closed yesterday started by dp gives me the impression you really have something personal against him.but i'll leave it as that.

last question.if you are tired,or mentally worn out, why dont you take a break from moderating cs?is it voluntary?or 'compulsory'(so to speak)?

no offense intended at all.i hope i shed some light on how some members feel(by this thread).not many people, less to say gals, dare to speak up bluntly like me.

There is really nothing personal. I have agreed with DP on some occasions in regards to other matters. I really have the energy to bear grudges. But you are entitled to what you think so thats that.

As for why I am still typing this... you can call it what you want but at the end of the day, i honestly would like CS to be a better place for everyone. An inclusive forum if you will.

And this is where i shall leave it at. No further amount of debate will change what we have been discussing about while it would do everyone a lot of good if we sometimes tried to put ourselves in someone else's shoe.

PS: The example i gave was not about you. It was me actually. My own photo was mocked long long ago and i got upset. It was someone who stepped in and shared with me what i have just shared in the previous post.

 

[Wolfgang]

I have already mentioned it earlier.

I do not and will not tolerate any further banality in here.

 

[tdubs]

Can you at least understand the simple fact that each of us view a picture differently? To a newbie, of course he might say nice shot for a mediocre picture but to a pro, it might be considered "trash". Now, who are we to judge which party is right or wrong in the way the see a picture?

If you consider yourself a person who is able to better judge a picture, then sure, come forth and share. But surely there isn't a need to adopt a condescending or sarcastic tone? Being direct is fine. But one can be direct without resorting to sarcasm or sound over bearing.

What is the point of being so high handed in your views of another person's photo? Does it make you a better person?

We are here to share and help each other grow and improve while being courteous or polite. I do not see whats wrong with that.

don't get me wrong.. i know diff ppl, diff views...what i mean is that i think is better to receive more constructive comments which helps the TS to improve...however I know ppl are no obligated to "help" ppl and tell them how to improve their photographic skills..

cheers

 

[leews2001]

it's not so much about the person giving the comments, but about the person receiving it.

you nail it right. :thumbsup:

 

[excelglsi]

I totally agree with Jeanie...

nowadays, when post a picture and ask for C&C... even thou the picture is not so good, many ppl would reply: nice picture, love it.. but only a very few would give opinion on how to improve.

When I post my pictures and ask for C&C I would actually like ppl to really give critics to my pics and show my how to improve...

I do agree that sometimes the way DP criticizes is a bit rude but then he is one of the only few who can give comments better than nice pic or love it.. at least he tells you whats wrong with you picture....

:dunno:

What is good and what is bad? Is it by fellowing what the book say is good? Messy hair for example is bad? is it?
For mi if if one criticizes like DP made mi makes me wonder how good he really is?... Saying is easy.

As Jeanie had ask n said before in her thread "when you guys do portraiture, do you look out for ALL potential flaws before clicking the shutter?
personally, i dont
if i do, i find it so much time 'wasted'(note inverted commas)trying to get everything right, and not even shooting enough.
Anyone agreed with what she say?

Or maybe can look into PHOTOMALAYSIA.COM Ppl there are much nicer and more willing to help... (not sayin ppl here are not nice)

 

[jOhO]

hi jeanie, nice to see you active and alive

i have no idea what's been going on in the portrait forum. as usual i go out and shoot, i have shots that i'm happy with, i post it up and everyone (or most) say it's very good.

i mean.. it's like that lor, whether it's REALLY good or not, whether they are really giving me lip service or not, or that those pple that think i suck dun dare to post becos of my "name" here in cs, i dunno, but u know what, the next day or week, i shoot another few shots that i post up becos i like wat i've shot, and than pple (mostly) say that's it's good, but whether it's really good or not i dunno they could just be giving me lip service.....

oh crap.. i'm repeating myself i think??? :bsmilie:

go and shoot more lar, i think u're making good progress btw, and while u feel strongly about this community of CS improving for the better, my bet is that your zealousness about the greater good of CS will fade, but hopefully not your photography.

why do i say that? i am talking about myself.

CS as a whole doesn't hold a strong candle in my heart anymore, but certainly the MANY individuals that i have met because of this forum, do.

as for critiques, we exchange them in private. pm, msn, email, phone, meet up. no need to do in public, cos i see them often for shoots, i see them on msn, they come to my studio to hang out, i go to theirs to hang out, i meet them at the photo lab, i meet them at cathay, funan, heck we do other non-photographic things too! THAT is the community that i care for, not "CS" as a whole. of course, i expect to keep making friends here, as i always do.

actually i have a rather sensitive question asked in all honesty, no malice intended:

when anyone asks for constructive comments and critiques, is it your ENTITLEMENT that you get help to improve yourself? further, if you DO NOT get the assistance you hoped for, would there be a reason for you to be upset? all these from STRANGERS? pple you do not know? are these your expectations?

the reason i say strangers is because, if they aren't, they would/could get back to you in private. i have like 50 CSers on msn AT LEAST? those are where my constructive comments come and go. damn.. i seem to be repeating myself again!! eheh...

 

[pai]

however of late, if you do visit portraiture folder, i see pics which are ...*how should i put it*....not up to a certain standard, and i see some members throwing encouraging comments/remarks.you know, the GOOD words and angel phrases.

i would like to ask you guys, do you think, by throwing such 'good' comments, it's going to help the fellow cser improve their photography skills?

i don't think this is a recent thing actually. it's been like that as long as i've been on CS, and i'm sure long before i joined ;p

i was a little confused at first. i kept thinking eh, the picture so lousy how come ppl keep saying it's nice. after some time i thought... well, maybe ppl give a :thumbsup: because they really like it. as someone already said, not everyone has the same interests/preferences/standards.

guess my point is, i suspect a lot of time, the people who make the "good" comments are being genuine.

so, what we need isn't less angels, but more... ok lah not devils :devil: . i guess just more participation from people who see a way a photograph may be improved.

and i think we can afford to be gentle and offer suggestions rather than slam people. those who are receptive will pay attention even to the most gentle of criticisms. those who are stubborn and refuse to learn - yes, if we bomb them, we get their attention. but will they listen to us? just help those who are willing to be helped, and who help themselves.

when i see one of those "SUX CRAP TRASH WTF WERE U THINKING" threads, i'm reminded of this Aesop's fable of the sun and the wind...

The Wind and the Sun were disputing which was the stronger. Suddenly they saw a traveller coming down the road, and the Sun said: “I see a way to decide our dispute. Whichever of us can cause that traveller to take off his cloak shall be regarded as the stronger. You begin.”

So the Sun retired behind a cloud, and the Wind began to blow as hard as it could upon the traveller. But the harder he blew the more closely did the traveller wrap his cloak round him, till at last the Wind had to give up in despair. Then the Sun came out and shone in all his glory upon the traveller, who soon found it too hot to walk with his cloak on.

KINDNESS EFFECTS MORE THAN SEVERITY

 

[Michael]

1. not everyone's standards are the same
2. not everyone is a word smith
3. not everyone can give a critique
4. not everyone can take a critique

Ortega has spoken.... how did you become so wise?!

 

[drakon09]

one thing i realised is, the pro's seldom give their 2 cents. so how will we newbies move foward?:dunno:

And why would the REAL pros bother with a public forum on the net?

Go up to them in person, show them your pictures in person, and get slammed in the face.

It is honest, sincere and you really learn.

 

[melnjes]

You know, all this talk makes me wonder about the kind of comments folks receive.

Has anyone ever tried posting his or her pictures under another nick and see the response?

e.g. Stephen King once published some books under another pen name. From wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Bachman

"Thinner was (Richard) Bachman's first title to be published in hardback. It sold 28,000 copies before it became widely known that the author was really Stephen King, whereupon sales went up tenfold. "

Anyone keen to try this experiment?

 

[zaren]

You know, all this talk makes me wonder about the kind of comments folks receive.

Has anyone ever tried posting his or her pictures under another nick and see the response?

e.g. Stephen King once published some books under another pen name. From wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Bachman

"Thinner was (Richard) Bachman's first title to be published in hardback. It sold 28,000 copies before it became widely known that the author was really Stephen King, whereupon sales went up tenfold. "

Anyone keen to try this experiment?

trust me, ppl (regardless of skill level) can tell a great photo from a bad one. even though the great photos apparently came from an new/unknown photographer.

anyone remember the deyonker affair?

 

[Cheesecake]

trust me, ppl (regardless of skill level) can tell a great photo from a bad one. even though the great photos apparently came from an new/unknown photographer.

anyone remember the deyonker affair?

ALOT of ppl jumped at the chance to worship and praise him back then. :bsmilie: :bsmilie: :bsmilie: :bsmilie: :bsmilie:

 

[Michael]

mmmmh, i spent the last 20min or so to read through the entire thread, yes the whole 7 pages... and i found that it took the same road as many threads in CS.
TS puts up a point to be discussed, discussion starts fruitfull with many replies and counter replies, clever or not people stick to the topic... soon after things start to get out of hand and some personal comments/attacks start, post after post there is senseless rambling contribuiting nothing to the original motion. The out of nowhere an extensive reply appears again and we seem to get back on track, just to get lost again.... Take away the ramblings and the 7 pages can be reduced to 3 maybe 4.

In this i think lies the problem that plagues CS as compared to other sites like photo.net (though similar things have been seen on photosig.com). A thread is started and sooner later posts start to drift and one answer leads to the next and before soon a full fledged war goes on. Why do we get involved in personal attacks? Is it because CS / Singapore is so small and everybody thinks to know everybody else and hence can say things in public, one would say to buddies?
How to get around it?
Respect: As a TS respect what the forum is. Its public and not privat, its about photography and its not a chatroom.
As a poster respect what the thread is about. In a thread about a landscape photo it is unnesseary to tell a poster that he has a pimple on the nose.
Pay attention to your language. Bold words are not necessary (guilty as charged), however this does not mean sugarcoating is required. Posts can be direct/harsh/pointed without being derogatory.
Tolerance: Agree to disagree. You hate messy hair, i love it, leave it at that.
Be Humble: All my shots are fantastique until i show them to my mom and she starts to crop/cut and tear them.... Photos are our kids, we love them and that's why we are blind and partial to them. Acknowledge this and you will be able to take critisism.

and keep dreaming of a better world... have a good Friday!

 

[Wolfgang]

You know what Jeanie?

I am actually glad this thread go posted. This has gone on quite nicely even when there are opposing views, everyone cared enough to take time to share and explain themselves in regards to how things are the way they are.

Save for a few banal comments, we have a decent thread going here. This has allowed alot of CSers to reflect and maybe take a different direction, especially when it comes to photo critiques.

So again, I encourage this dialogue to go on but please, agree to disagree on some matters and do noe that banal/OT comments are NOT at all.

Thank you

 

[Big Kahuna]

I don't believe a pro would need to post something here for C&C, so I have reason to believe that most of the time newbies were the one who need C&C the most:think:

Using kopi as example, if I take an effort to make someone a cup of coffee, I really expect at least some feedback be it "too sweet", "too bitter", "too thick", "too thin" or "taste just nice". Negative comment will of coz sent me back to kitchen to rethink of how to change, nevertheless a nice comment is an endorsement that I am heading in the right direction and there is no standard being too high or too low, I am not into a competition anyway.

So a comment is comment and there is no such thing as good comment being bad and bad comment being good, it's just an extra piece of information out of the millions that we received day in day out.

 

[ortega]

Ortega has spoken.... how did you become so wise?!

i'm old :embrass:

 

[zcf]

I don't believe a pro would need to post something here for C&C, so I have reason to believe that most of the time newbies were the one who need C&C the most:think:

But we need the Pro/high standard forumer to bring up the standard of CS though. But I can understand most are to busy with works or life.

The more CSers seen more high level photos, their judgement level/style will grow higher, so there will be less "nice/good" comment on no so up to standard photos. I think :sweat:

 

[jsbn]

can give an example?

Like, "I don't know what you are doing. What are u shooting anyway?"

 

[yanyewkay]

i'm old :embrass:

old does not mean wise, i know a 'old' man who acts very childishly though he is smart, but his EQ is definitely lacking.. :bsmilie: