Criticisms and comments nowadays...

[zcf]

to keep CS peaceful and forumers to give more neutral and proper critics, I think CS need to host a "don't bear grudge/resentment toward other forumers" campaign or day :sweat: though I think it's not easy and unlikely to happen

 

[Jaycelim]

Depending on how you view photography. Photography can be an art or something casual.
For me i can never understand why some winning photographs won awards which I don't find anything nice about the photographs.

To an artist he might want to find the abstract in the photograph, to the general public, they probably wants the photography to be clear and bright. To an engineer, he might want to see the subject in the photograph properly organised. And so on....

For me, I use the ads as a reference to judge a photograph. IMHO, if a photograph is so bad, it won't be used as an ad. Should I make a suggestion, for those who wants to comment, they could state their stand point on viewing a photograph, from there, standing at his point of view probably you can understand why he make those comments.

 

[Deadpoet]

You know what Jeanie?

I am actually glad this thread go posted. This has gone on quite nicely even when there are opposing views, everyone cared enough to take time to share and explain themselves in regards to how things are the way they are.

Save for a few banal comments, we have a decent thread going here. This has allowed alot of CSers to reflect and maybe take a different direction, especially when it comes to photo critiques.

So again, I encourage this dialogue to go on but please, agree to disagree on some matters and do noe that banal/OT comments are NOT at all.

Thank you

Wolfie, this is getting too much. I am actually agreeing with you!

You are absolutely correct. This has been one of the few better discussion on CS lately. Thanks to Jeanie for that.

Back to the topic, lest mod gets me for getting OT.

I am on multiple photography forums. One that that distingusihed CS is geography. Most of the members are from Singapore, many knows each other in real life. Hence, I found many tends to be very supportive of their friends. That is a good thing, that is what friends are for.

However, all too often, the pictures in question just does not cut it. Yet, friends will be quick to post compliments. All the praises where praises are not earned nor warranted.

There are rarely any criticisms, and even so, are usually diluted and soften to make the poster feels better. This lack of honest criticism, one that will strike an impression, is also lacking in other photography forums. But what is lacking in these other forums is the blatant cliquish my frind can do no wrong kind of support and comments. I guess this is a by-product of many members here in CS, who are friends in real life. Cie la vie.

Some find my choice of words to be offensive. I find some of the comments, according to Jeanie, "...good words and angel phrases ..." nauseating when such praises are not warranted. So, what to do?

How about just way what we feel. Nomatter how bad a picture is, the audiences can still sow praises as photography is an art, it's subjective. But on the flip side, a piece of gargage is a piece of garbage, nomatter how you try to disguise it, try to lessen the impact, it's still a piece of smelly garbage. Shouldn't we just call it as it is?

On something else Wolfie and others brought up, banal talk. Well, it's inevitable. CS is a place where it's members goes to talk, yak, chat, speak, make their opinions know ... some OT is inevitable. Since when a group of friends sitting around a table in a kopitiam stayed on topic all evening ....

btw, it's Friday, let's just go shoot some more this weekend, so that we have more pictures to .... nevermind ... let's just go and shoot ... TGIF

 

[vince123123]

Sometimes, I wonder what's wrong with people just posting their photos for the heck of it. Some people may enjoy doing it just for the sake of doing it, or for sharing. They may not be looking for serious critique. Hence, it is an anomaly to assume that people who post in the general photo forums want critique or even looking out for it, and will be horribly upset if superficial critique was given.

Those looking for serious critique will post it in the Critque's Corner. Now, if you get bad quality critique there, then its a different story altogether.

Incidentally, anyone has the link to the NIRA photoalbum that is the off-topic subject of this thread? I was looking at them halfway and then PC restart and couldn't find the original thread anymore.

 

[Wolfgang]

Sometimes, I wonder what's wrong with people just posting their photos for the heck of it. Some people may enjoy doing it just for the sake of doing it, or for sharing. They may not be looking for serious critique. Hence, it is an anomaly to assume that people who post in the general photo forums want critique or even looking out for it, and will be horribly upset if superficial critique was given.

Those looking for serious critique will post it in the Critque's Corner. Now, if you get bad quality critique there, then its a different story altogether.

Incidentally, anyone has the link to the NIRA photoalbum that is the off-topic subject of this thread? I was looking at them halfway and then PC restart and couldn't find the original thread anymore.

Hi Vince,

The thread started deleted his own thread to prevent any further escalation of flames and OT comments that were getting out of hand. Hope this helps.

Cheers,
WG

 

[Wolfgang]

However, all too often, the pictures in question just does not cut it. Yet, friends will be quick to post compliments. All the praises where praises are not earned nor warranted.

There are rarely any criticisms, and even so, are usually diluted and soften to make the poster feels better. This lack of honest criticism, one that will strike an impression, is also lacking in other photography forums. But what is lacking in these other forums is the blatant cliquish my frind can do no wrong kind of support and comments. I guess this is a by-product of many members here in CS, who are friends in real life. Cie la vie.

Some find my choice of words to be offensive. I find some of the comments, according to Jeanie, "...good words and angel phrases ..." nauseating when such praises are not warranted. So, what to do?

How about just way what we feel. No matter how bad a picture is, the audiences can still sow praises as photography is an art, it's subjective. But on the flip side, a piece of gargage is a piece of garbage, nomatter how you try to disguise it, try to lessen the impact, it's still a piece of smelly garbage. Shouldn't we just call it as it is?

Who gave anyone us a right to call someone else's works trash or garbage? The rules in this house is clear. We do not condone such name calling or comments that are derogatory in nature. Whether the praise is earned/warranted is not for you to say. I have already explained why some people can look at one picture and each will have their own take at it.

If you wish to have your say, sure, go ahead, share with them what you think but I do not see a need to insult, degrade, demean or use sarcasm or be high handed. One can be direct, honest and straight forward without being rude.

It is our simple wish that you continue to share your views or for everyone to do so but in a manner that is generally acceptable by one and all. The house rules are in place for a reason and it is our wish that they are respected.

On something else Wolfie and others brought up, banal talk. Well, it's inevitable. CS is a place where it's members goes to talk, yak, chat, speak, make their opinions know ... some OT is inevitable. Since when a group of friends sitting around a table in a kopitiam stayed on topic all evening ....

Of course. Among friends, we are more relaxed and some banality will rear its head but there is nothing wrong with that when the thread is fine and friends are just bantering. The banality I am talking abt is when people start to get hot under the collar and start to get a bit more sensitive. There is a marked difference between these 2 types of banality. One of them actually leads to conflicts/discord/arguments which we do not need.

I hope our stand here is clear by now.

 

[vince123123]

Yea I was just wondering if someone had the link to his album (which was linked in the thread before it got deleted) as I was like on image number 15 out of 44 or something in that album, hehe.

Hi Vince,

The thread started deleted his own thread to prevent any further escalation of flames and OT comments that were getting out of hand. Hope this helps.

Cheers,
WG

 

[seankyh]

In Buy and Sell, we follow a certain template. Maybe we can apply one for critiques.

This image is great!!
Technical reasons:.....
Aesthetic reasons:.....
Ways to improve:

This doesn't work for me.
Technical reasons:
Aesthetic reasons:
Ways to improve:

Overall Score: x/100

Just a thought...

 

[maddyks]

Hmm I started reading this thread thinking it will go DP style but quite pleasantly surprised to see it. Nice one. But yea we could do without the banal talk.

Anyway I'm still a noobie. I post on flickr too but most of the comments I see there just take them as comments if not coming from good people I know. Coz there no one seems to put up a negative comment. People just come in to say good shot and then award all sorts of weird stuff. I even saw someone award my friend for a photo he put up for information purpose. Even he din't feel he deserved the award. anyway, that is one of the reasons why I like CS - the negative comments.

But how negative is what I have always wondered. You say the angle is not right, the focus is OOF then tell me what is it that you are looking for. I fully respect your opinion that the photo is not up to the standards but tell me how to get there. Just telling me that I'm not good enough is not gonna make me a better photographer is it?

And please be a little civil. I understand that the words "sucks, trash etc." may be exactly what you feel but don't have to put it that way. I am not asking comments to be sugar coated but they can at least fall into civility. Unless you are telling me that you are an Almighty Photography God who never makes mistakes and doesnt even have time or the need to make a decent, civilized, constructive comment for noobies like me.

And those who get criticisms, unless you dont want to hear any, please do not take it as a personal attack. think of it as a way to improve your standards. And really if you don't want criticism, then say so in the thread. Please do not criticise, only for viewing pleasure (or displeasure).

This forum has been a good place for me to learn a lot of stuff. I wouldn't like to see it go down because we forgot our civility under anonymity.

Enuff said

 

[yanyewkay]

even garbage has it's own value. no matter how smelly or useless it may seem to others, there's always a place that places a value for it.

I cannot appreciate some out of focus or motion blurred pics done by some masters and yet, because of his name, many will sing praises to it. On first look to me, it seems like thrash.

 

[forward]

People makes comments according to their photography experiences, however there are those who just want to make a comment for comment sake without having any knowledge of the consequences.

Perhaps it would be essential for serious learning photographers to take up a course on how to critque a photo if there is such a course in Singapore.

I feel that the the quality of the comments will depend largely on the maturity of the person making the comments and his vast photographic experiences and training. Here is a simple clue for the beginners to want to learn about photocritque.

-----------------------------------
If you want to find fault it is best to call attention
to the photographer's mistake indirectly and talk about your
own mistakes first. This way you can use the correct words to
criticize and not be hated for it. But make sure you can give him
a solution as to your way of doing it.

 

[microcosm]

After all that is said, I only come to realise one thing... not all are born to be teachers, regardless whether you are truly a master photographer or not. I have been to a few master photographer's seminars and heard them speak, and then realise that even them, with many years of experience, might be able to talk to us about technical aspects of photography, but they have trouble to translate what is in their head when they made that one masterpiece that won them that award.

Instincts? Lucky? But then, the composition and execution (shutter press) is spot on... how did they do it?

Practise, and lots of it.

What am I getting onto here? Let me attempt to put things from my perspective.

Many times, I see an image, and I find that it does not work, but I held back my tongue (and fingers) to try to explain why the image is not good, or like DP says, "trash". But to the young photographer (not age, but experience), his eyes are not trained to be able to discern what is good or bad. Like someone who just started to drink wine. Can one tell immediately the difference between table wine, hour pouring or that dearer than gold vintage? I don't think so... subtly maybe, but to immediately be able to describe what has been drunk is almost impossible unless one has gone through his/her many bottles and wine appreciate phase.

This is the same thing with photography. While the intention is good from the more experienced photographers to try and talk to the shooter about what is right and wrong from experience, sometimes (not all the time) the young shooter gets defensive because he felt that that particular image is the best he has produced so far and is so willing to flaunt it, hoping for praise and encouragement (which he is getting from all those sugar coated compliments) but in the end, shot down by that one honest experienced photographer. He gets defensive, and we all know what happens in the end.

Yes DP, I hardly reply to most of your posts because we don't see things eye to eye almost all the time, but you brought up this point. Different photo forums. So therefore you should also understand that in different forums, due to different cultures, there are different house rules, so I am hoping, like Wolfie has put it, respect the house rules. I am a moderator in a few of them (shall not mention which and who I am) and there are some foreign members in CS whom I have booted out from those and when they found CS and registered a nick, I reminded them about the incidents that got them a ban from the other places and they were really nice enough to make up and we eventually became friends, and they have been contributing to the threads and learnt to exist in this place respecting house rules. My point is? Respecting the house rules. Truth is hard to bear as it is, try to be tactful and word things differently, afterall, if your intention is kind, to help someone improve, then what is so much more difficult than to re-word your posts? Or do I have to attach awards and credentials in my signature line and start going around gunning every picture I think is no good or up to my liking?

Art is subjective, everyone. It has always been. Some like Metallica, some like Mozart, some like Britney Spears, some like Rain. Who is it to say that which genre of music is better than the other? Some like high contrast, some like high key, some like rich colours, some like shallow bokeh. Yet the same lens and camera in the hands of different people produces different images. While the more experienced can show someone else what is an alternative to shoot differently, we cannot tell the person what he does is wrong. There is no right or wrong in art. Given time, that wrong style is polished and something new comes along and that becomes the style and genre which gains recognition. Look back at the works of some masters of the past... and you will get what I mean.

I hope that CS can become a more open, and friendlier place to be. That is all that I am asking for. Tactfulness in posting replies and comments, and if one is genuine about helping another, then let it be so. We don't need ego in here. Because there will come a day when a master loses his cool and put down someone else, it will all turn ugly and who gains anything? Not the master nor the newbie. But when everyone can hold their viciousness, and reply tactfully (even while pointing out wrongs), friendship will form and that friendship is what you gain from here. I was critical about pictures shot by one popular PnP photographer in CS, but I did it with kind intention, and now, we have both become pretty good pals and this friendship is something I treasure.

I hope we can all start thinking about the word "forum". This is not the Straits Times forums when people write in to bitch and whine. But an online community. What does community mean? I shall leave it to you all to think about this. I want friends in here, not childish picking on one another. Even though (sigh) it is inevitable once in a while because there will be people like that.

Let's try to be kind to one another. Harshness should remain in the military. We are not the military here. We are an online community.

 

[Michael]

Wolfgang,
how to call things that one believes should have ended up in the trashbin? How to phrase it if this is the feeling one gets?
When i show my mom (herself a learned photographer) photos of a shoot, she goes through them and tears the crappy ones sending them into the waste basket. Not that i would have thought that the photos i gave her are crap... but then they are mine and they always look better to me than to others...
So i think there are photos where one feels that they belonged trashed and i think one should be able to express that. Its just part of critism. However, i would agree with you that a statement "the photo is trash/garbage" would require also some sort of explanation to why, since the poster obviously thought different of the shot.
I think the statement trash/garbage is legimitate as long as you substantiate.

 

[Michael]

i read now a couple times "who is to say that xy is not good" (be it photo, wine, music etc.). I think everyone!! As above posters mention everybody got different taste, what's sweet on my tongue is bitter on yours. So i can say its sweet. The problem arises if a) i expect that everybody now says "yes, its sweet" or b) the other person cannot accept that it is sweet in my mouth albeit being bitter in his/hers.
So, its less about words but more about seeing statements as personal views and not universal rules.

 

[melnjes]

trust me, ppl (regardless of skill level) can tell a great photo from a bad one. even though the great photos apparently came from an new/unknown photographer.

anyone remember the deyonker affair?

Of course photos that are absolutely great can't be disputed.

Why I asked this relates to what DP wrote in a later post - that some folks give compliments not because the photos are particularly nice.

 

[microcosm]

Wolfgang,
how to call things that one believes should have ended up in the trashbin? How to phrase it if this is the feeling one gets?
When i show my mom (herself a learned photographer) photos of a shoot, she goes through them and tears the crappy ones sending them into the waste basket. Not that i would have thought that the photos i gave her are crap... but then they are mine and they always look better to me than to others...
So i think there are photos where one feels that they belonged trashed and i think one should be able to express that. Its just part of critism. However, i would agree with you that a statement "the photo is trash/garbage" would require also some sort of explanation to why, since the poster obviously thought different of the shot.
I think the statement trash/garbage is legimitate as long as you substantiate.

Good question.

Instead of "thrash", if one's heart is kind and intention is good, then you can choose to re-word the reply. I would just "I don't like the shot" or "it doesn't work for me because..." if I want to explain further, and if the reply is not to further explain but self defensiveness, then I usually will ignore the thread and move on since the poster is honestly not interested in self improvement. Simple as that. I don't usually end up getting myself into a flame war. No one wins in the end. And I lose friends.

 

[Wolfgang]

Wolfgang,
how to call things that one believes should have ended up in the trashbin? How to phrase it if this is the feeling one gets?
When i show my mom (herself a learned photographer) photos of a shoot, she goes through them and tears the crappy ones sending them into the waste basket. Not that i would have thought that the photos i gave her are crap... but then they are mine and they always look better to me than to others...
So i think there are photos where one feels that they belonged trashed and i think one should be able to express that. Its just part of critism. However, i would agree with you that a statement "the photo is trash/garbage" would require also some sort of explanation to why, since the poster obviously thought different of the shot.
I think the statement trash/garbage is legimitate as long as you substantiate.

Hi Michael,

I agree that if a shot is bad in one's opinion, then its fine to come right out and say it. But what I have been trying to bring across is the manner that is brought across. I am not asking for sugar coating. I am asking for tactfulness. There is a difference.

So yes, we are all for being honest and being direct while being able to substantiate your comments. But what we do not condone is rudeness or callous remarks that insult or are intended to provoke.

 

[melnjes]

Instead of "thrash", if one's heart is kind and intention is good, then you can choose to re-word the reply. I would just "I don't like the shot" or "it doesn't work for me because..." if I want to explain further, and if the reply is not to further explain but self defensiveness, then I usually will ignore the thread and move on since the poster is honestly not interested in self improvement. Simple as that. I don't usually end up getting myself into a flame war. No one wins in the end. And I lose friends.

exactly.

which brings again the point that some folks have been trying to bring across in the past few posts.

That because the discussion is civil, it becomes much more constructive. This very thread is a fine example.

 

[Deadpoet]

Who gave anyone us a right to call someone else's works trash or garbage? The rules in this house is clear. We do not condone such name calling or comments that are derogatory in nature. Whether the praise is earned/warranted is not for you to say. I have already explained why some people can look at one picture and each will have their own take at it.

If you wish to have your say, sure, go ahead, share with them what you think but I do not see a need to insult, degrade, demean or use sarcasm or be high handed. One can be direct, honest and straight forward without being rude.

It is our simple wish that you continue to share your views or for everyone to do so but in a manner that is generally acceptable by one and all. The house rules are in place for a reason and it is our wish that they are respected.

....

Wolfgang,
how to call things that one believes should have ended up in the trashbin? How to phrase it if this is the feeling one gets?
When i show my mom (herself a learned photographer) photos of a shoot, she goes through them and tears the crappy ones sending them into the waste basket. Not that i would have thought that the photos i gave her are crap... but then they are mine and they always look better to me than to others...
So i think there are photos where one feels that they belonged trashed and i think one should be able to express that. Its just part of critism. However, i would agree with you that a statement "the photo is trash/garbage" would require also some sort of explanation to why, since the poster obviously thought different of the shot.
I think the statement trash/garbage is legimitate as long as you substantiate.

How does one describe a worst piece of garbage destined for the trash other than say it's a piece of garbage that is destined for the trash bin? Tell me how?

Of course, as the audience, as the critic and as someone expressing my opinion, whatever praised is of course for me to say, whatever criticism is of course for me to say. It's my opinion. You may disagree with me whether the poster's image deserve my opinion, but that is another issue.

 

[night86mare]

Waitaminute,

Is what I do considered banal talk? =( =( =(