Who are we? What are you?

[denniskee]

Today, I really have had a very bad day.

First, when I was in a taxi to work, my colleauge called me as I was late for work and I casually remarked to him that taxi drivers these days usually drive dangerously. The taxi driver overhead it and said : “Show me how you can drive better than me before you criticise taxi drivers”.

As I was walking towards the lifts in my office building after I had alighted from the taxi, I noticed that some of the decorative plants in the hall had wilted and I commented to the security guard that standard of upkeeping gardens is too low in S’pore. The gardener happened to be around, overheard what I said and then retorted : “Show me your garden and plants that you’re good in gardening before you criticise gardeners, OK!!!”.

Then I found that 2 of the 4 lifts were still under repair since 2 days ago and so I commented to others who were also waiting for the lift that the repair was taking a long time. The technician overhead me and said to me : “ Then show me that you can repair faster before you comment on lift technicicans!!!”.

During lunch time, I went with my colleagues to a Chinese restaurant. We found that the food wasn’t so nice and, from our numerous previous experience in eating at Chinese restaurants, one of my colleagues casually remarked that the standards of food in Chinese restaurant in S’pore wasn’t very good. The cook happened to be around and heard what we said, and confronted us : “Show me your cooking and prove that you’re a good cook before you rant!!!”.

As I was walking with my colleague along Orchard Road after work, we passed by a busker singing and we stood there to listen for a while. A passerby commented to his friend that the singing by buskers in S’pore wasn’t really good. Another passerby overheard them and retorted : “You go down there and sing to prove to me that you can sing better before you open your mouth!!!”.

Then we went to the Esplanade to watch a local dance performance. During the interlude, I commented that the performance wasn’t that good and the standards were much higher in the US and UK. A fellow audience overheard and responded to me : “Can you dance well? Show me that you can dance better than them before you express your negative opinion!!!”

Later after the dance performance, I saw the dancers and their friends patting each other’s back and praising each other how well they’ve performed even though they had made some mistakes and fell onto the floor a few times accidentally. (Similar kind of scenes is often seen in the photo galleries).

Then in the MRT on our way home, we overheard someone talking about the S-League. So my colleague said that S-League got no standards and I agreed. Another fellow passenger overheard us and said to us : “You two can play better meh? Show me that you can play better soccer before you comment. !!!”

toto and 4d also not so accurate.

 

[Clockunder]

toto and 4d also not so accurate.

Ok. My story is completely fictitious. Any resemblence, whether dead or alive and whether in Clubsnap or Clubnag or any other forum, to any character in my story is purely coincidental. I shall not be responsible for any negative consequences as a result of reading my story. :sweat::lovegrin:

 

[Pablo]

Hi,

I have followed this thread with passing interest. I have added a bit I think in jest.

I must admit though, I do see what DP is on about. I do understand his view.

To me, I have a possible similar situation :-

I have been selling cameras for a few years now. I am not a photographer so to speak (some newbies here can make me look bad).

But my understanding/knowledge of cameras is quite good. I have put much time and spent many dollars learning about many different aspects.

I can sell cheap cameras to people with no idea (I hate it !). I can talk with and discuss high end cameras with people that know their cameras.

I have devoted my self to cameras and with a passion.

I do not consider my self a professional in this trade, but I am bloody good !

I am now faced with someone I work with, buying a DSLR so that they can say, "I have a DSLR... you should buy this one".

Sound a bit far fetched ??? you may think so, But it is true.

This person has the assumption that buy owning a DSLR that he automatically has the knowledge, a Pro.

I am now faced with the situation of having to step in and re-gain face when he looks stupid as a customer asks about ND filters, crop factor, DOF etc,etc,etc.

Yes, this guy thinks that because he owns a DSLR, he can now sell DSLR.

I am not a pro, but I am faced with someone that thinks they are because they have a DSLR.

I am just a guy with a passion for cameras and photography.

The person mentioned above, will not come across/will not find this web site.
He owns a DSLR and that is all he needs.

 

[azul123]

Lessons learnt ?:
1)[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]If have a bad opinion on something, keep quiet unless I can show them that I’m good in it and am better than them.
2)[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]If the other party is my friend, say something good and pat his back even if it’s actually a bad piece of work and even if I can’t really distinguish good from bad. This way, they will also pat my back in return when I show my work.

In this way, everyone else is happy.

Lessons should be:

1) Not my problem if they do not agree with me that the performance is bad, if it's under par, I've said it and that's that... maybe many others heard it and agree with me and hopefully more people start to realise it and demand higher standards.

2) A better friend will point out the mistakes, how else can your friend improve if he thinks his works are good and everyone of his friends pat his back even though there are bad. If one expects the same feel good treatment the bad work just spreads around more and further degrade standards.

../azul123

 

[Sion]

worry about photography standards? go and shoot more lah! :bsmilie:

Photography = Talking not shooting. :bsmilie:

 

[Sion]

Today, I really have had a very bad day.

First, when I was in a taxi to work, my colleauge called me as I was late for work and I casually remarked to him that taxi drivers these days usually drive dangerously. The taxi driver overhead it and said : “Show me how you can drive better than me before you criticise taxi drivers”.

As I was walking towards the lifts in my office building after I had alighted from the taxi, I noticed that some of the decorative plants in the hall had wilted and I commented to the security guard that standard of upkeeping gardens is too low in S’pore. The gardener happened to be around, overheard what I said and then retorted : “Show me your garden and plants that you’re good in gardening before you criticise gardeners, OK!!!”.

Then I found that 2 of the 4 lifts were still under repair since 2 days ago and so I commented to others who were also waiting for the lift that the repair was taking a long time. The technician overhead me and said to me : “ Then show me that you can repair faster before you comment on lift technicicans!!!”.

During lunch time, I went with my colleagues to a Chinese restaurant. We found that the food wasn’t so nice and, from our numerous previous experience in eating at Chinese restaurants, one of my colleagues casually remarked that the standards of food in Chinese restaurant in S’pore wasn’t very good. The cook happened to be around and heard what we said, and confronted us : “Show me your cooking and prove that you’re a good cook before you rant!!!”.

As I was walking with my colleague along Orchard Road after work, we passed by a busker singing and we stood there to listen for a while. A passerby commented to his friend that the singing by buskers in S’pore wasn’t really good. Another passerby overheard them and retorted : “You go down there and sing to prove to me that you can sing better before you open your mouth!!!”.

Then we went to the Esplanade to watch a local dance performance. During the interlude, I commented that the performance wasn’t that good and the standards were much higher in the US and UK. A fellow audience overheard and responded to me : “Can you dance well? Show me that you can dance better than them before you express your negative opinion!!!”

Later after the dance performance, I saw the dancers and their friends patting each other’s back and praising each other how well they’ve performed even though they had made some mistakes and fell onto the floor a few times accidentally. (Similar kind of scenes is often seen in the photo galleries).

Then in the MRT on our way home, we overheard someone talking about the S-League. So my colleague said that S-League got no standards and I agreed. Another fellow passenger overheard us and said to us : “You two can play better meh? Show me that you can play better soccer before you comment. !!!”

Wah so Chim! :bigeyes:

 

[Canonised]

Today, I really have had a very bad day.

First, when I was in a taxi to work, my colleauge called me as I was late for work and I casually remarked to him that taxi drivers these days usually drive dangerously. The taxi driver overhead it and said : “Show me how you can drive better than me before you criticise taxi drivers”.

As I was walking towards the lifts in my office building after I had alighted from the taxi, I noticed that some of the decorative plants in the hall had wilted and I commented to the security guard that standard of upkeeping gardens is too low in S’pore. The gardener happened to be around, overheard what I said and then retorted : “Show me your garden and plants that you’re good in gardening before you criticise gardeners, OK!!!”.

Then I found that 2 of the 4 lifts were still under repair since 2 days ago and so I commented to others who were also waiting for the lift that the repair was taking a long time. The technician overhead me and said to me : “ Then show me that you can repair faster before you comment on lift technicicans!!!”.

During lunch time, I went with my colleagues to a Chinese restaurant. We found that the food wasn’t so nice and, from our numerous previous experience in eating at Chinese restaurants, one of my colleagues casually remarked that the standards of food in Chinese restaurant in S’pore wasn’t very good. The cook happened to be around and heard what we said, and confronted us : “Show me your cooking and prove that you’re a good cook before you rant!!!”.

As I was walking with my colleague along Orchard Road after work, we passed by a busker singing and we stood there to listen for a while. A passerby commented to his friend that the singing by buskers in S’pore wasn’t really good. Another passerby overheard them and retorted : “You go down there and sing to prove to me that you can sing better before you open your mouth!!!”.

Then we went to the Esplanade to watch a local dance performance. During the interlude, I commented that the performance wasn’t that good and the standards were much higher in the US and UK. A fellow audience overheard and responded to me : “Can you dance well? Show me that you can dance better than them before you express your negative opinion!!!”

Later after the dance performance, I saw the dancers and their friends patting each other’s back and praising each other how well they’ve performed even though they had made some mistakes and fell onto the floor a few times accidentally. (Similar kind of scenes is often seen in the photo galleries).

Then in the MRT on our way home, we overheard someone talking about the S-League. So my colleague said that S-League got no standards and I agreed. Another fellow passenger overheard us and said to us : “You two can play better meh? Show me that you can play better soccer before you comment. !!!”


Lessons learnt ?:
1)If have a bad opinion on something, keep quiet unless I can show them that I’m good in it and am better than them.
2)If the other party is my friend, say something good and pat his back even if it’s actually a bad piece of work and even if I can’t really distinguish good from bad. This way, they will also pat my back in return when I show my work.

In this way, everyone else is happy.

Your whole concept has one major fault ..... you don't need to be the best to be a better judge. :think:
Even if you have no driving licence, you can tell who is a good taxi driver.
You dont have to know anything about gardening to tell which gardener is capable.
You dont need to know how to cook to tell a good cook, “Show me your cooking and prove that you’re a good cook before you rant!!!”.

Lessons should be:
1. One can always open one's mouth if one has an opinion on something but the INTENTION must be good and should be make in an appropriate moment/situation. It's a God's gift to human to be able to improve others thru our comments - good or bad, right or wrong. I can't think of any other living thing able to do this. :think:
2. One should always be honest to our friends .... its sad if you think you should not!

 

[mrlau]

Just like cooking food, some cook for hobby, some cook food to sell for living. Is the hobby cook only can cook a lousy food and a hawker must cook very good food ?

Everyone has the a set of expectation and ability to judge.
You dont need to a be a good cook to differentiate a good food and lousy food.

Same thing for photography, the audience will have their judgement level.
Most of the ppl diffentiate a good photo and a lousy photo.

 

[Deadpoet]

Your whole concept has one major fault ..... you don't need to be the best to be a better judge. :think:
Even if you have no driving licence, you can tell who is a good taxi driver.
You dont have to know anything about gardening to tell which gardener is capable.
You dont need to know how to cook to tell a good cook, “Show me your cooking and prove that you’re a good cook before you rant!!!”.

Lessons should be:
1. One can always open one's mouth if one has an opinion on something but the INTENTION must be good and should be make in an appropriate moment/situation. It's a God's gift to human to be able to improve others thru our comments - good or bad, right or wrong. I can't think of any other living thing able to do this. :think:
2. One should always be honest to our friends .... its sad if you think you should not!

bravo:thumbsup:

 

[Clockunder]

Lessons should be:

1) Not my problem if they do not agree with me that the performance is bad, if it's under par, I've said it and that's that... maybe many others heard it and agree with me and hopefully more people start to realise it and demand higher standards.

2) A better friend will point out the mistakes, how else can your friend improve if he thinks his works are good and everyone of his friends pat his back even though there are bad. If one expects the same feel good treatment the bad work just spreads around more and further degrade standards.

../azul123

Haha.

Looks like you've got my hidden message.

The world will become a ridiculous place if a person has to be good in the thing before he is allowed to have a negative opinion on it.

 

[eikin]

looks like there's a consensus :thumbsup:

 

[student]

Today, I really have had a very bad day.

You need to look at your karma and perhaps change your feng-shui!

First, when I was in a taxi to work, my colleauge called me as I was late for work and I casually remarked to him that taxi drivers these days usually drive dangerously. The taxi driver overhead it and said : “Show me how you can drive better than me before you criticise taxi drivers”.

I will tell the driver, I do not drive a taxi. But I had been driven in taxis in Japan, many many times. And I can certainly tell a difference in the way the Japanese taxi drivers drive, compared to yours. And their attitude is a zillions times better too!

As I was walking towards the lifts in my office building after I had alighted from the taxi, I noticed that some of the decorative plants in the hall had wilted and I commented to the security guard that standard of upkeeping gardens is too low in S’pore. The gardener happened to be around, overheard what I said and then retorted : “Show me your garden and plants that you’re good in gardening before you criticise gardeners, OK!!!”

I will tell this "gardener". I am not a gardener, and I know nuts about gardening. But I had walked the gardens of the Palace of Versailles, and also the gardens in the various parks in England. I had seen what a well-kept garden is. And oh, when I mentioned to the gardeners who attended to these wonderful gardens what I felt could be improved, they graciously took my comments to heart. And when I returned, I was heartened to see my suggestions put to good use.

Ahh... what humility!

Then I found that 2 of the 4 lifts were still under repair since 2 days ago and so I commented to others who were also waiting for the lift that the repair was taking a long time. The technician overhead me and said to me : “ Then show me that you can repair faster before you comment on lift technicicans!!!”

And I will tell this technician. I am not a lift technician, and I know nuts about reparing lifts. But I can understand that repairing lifts must be very difficult, and requires a high level of intelligence to understand the problem, and get the lifts fixed.

But I do remember a week ago some lifts were malfunctioning in another building. And the lifts were repaired with a couple of hours. Don't you think these technicians were intelligent and efficient?

During lunch time, I went with my colleagues to a Chinese restaurant. We found that the food wasn’t so nice and, from our numerous previous experience in eating at Chinese restaurants, one of my colleagues casually remarked that the standards of food in Chinese restaurant in S’pore wasn’t very good. The cook happened to be around and heard what we said, and confronted us : “Show me your cooking and prove that you’re a good cook before you rant!!!”

I will tell this cook. I am ashamed of myself. The only thing I can cook is Maggie mee. But I travel extensively, to Shanghai, and HongKong, and Paris. I wonder why so many people felt that the HongKong restaurants serve better food than Singapore?

As I was walking with my colleague along Orchard Road after work, we passed by a busker singing and we stood there to listen for a while. A passerby commented to his friend that the singing by buskers in S’pore wasn’t really good. Another passerby overheard them and retorted : “You go down there and sing to prove to me that you can sing better before you open your mouth!!!”.

I will tell this passerby, I am not able to hold a tune well. But I had been to Times Square in New York, and Covent Gardens in London. I had always enjoy the perfomances by buskers in these places. I wonder how these Orchard Road buskers will perfom next to the NY and London buskers?

Then we went to the Esplanade to watch a local dance performance. During the interlude, I commented that the performance wasn’t that good and the standards were much higher in the US and UK. A fellow audience overheard and responded to me : “Can you dance well? Show me that you can dance better than them before you express your negative opinion!!!”

I will, with embarrassment, reply to my fellow audience that I was born with two left feet, and could not do a simple waltz with my wife without stepping on her toes. But I had been to the Broadway, and the West End, and Moscow, and Barcelona, and Cuba, and .........

Do you think I can tell the difference bewteen the performances?

Later after the dance performance, I saw the dancers and their friends patting each other’s back and praising each other how well they’ve performed even though they had made some mistakes and fell onto the floor a few times accidentally. (Similar kind of scenes is often seen in the photo galleries)

Ahh... yes. I will praise them for their enthusiasm and encourage them to practise harder, and not make these mistakes again.

Then in the MRT on our way home, we overheard someone talking about the S-League. So my colleague said that S-League got no standards and I agreed. Another fellow passenger overheard us and said to us : “You two can play better meh? Show me that you can play better soccer before you comment. !!!”

Oh, no! Like I said before, I was born with two left feet, and could hardly kick a ball more than two inches!

But I also remember how Pele played, and Maradona, and Ronaldo, and...........

And I will ask this fellow passenger, do you honestly think that our S-league means "Super-league", or "Shitty-league"? How many of our wonderful S-league footballers can play in the first Division in UK? Or any where?

Yes, we do have to support our local talent and help to nuture talents. But do we have to adopt the "frog-in-the-well" syndrome?

Lessons learnt ?:
1)[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]If have a bad opinion on something, keep quiet unless I can show them that I’m good in it and am better than them.
2)[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]If the other party is my friend, say something good and pat his back even if it’s actually a bad piece of work and even if I can’t really distinguish good from bad. This way, they will also pat my back in return when I show my work.

In this way, everyone else is happy.

1 No, If I have an opinion on something, and when that opinion is correct, tell the truth as it is. Do not keep your head in the sand and pretend all is well. A basketball coach may not be (and not likely to be) better than Michael Jordon. But even Michael will have to listen to the coach where the problem is, and to rectify.

2 If the other party is my friend, and IF I AM TRULY HIS FRIEND, I will say the truth. What kind of a friend are you, if you continue to lead your friend in his delusion? Yes, you do try to encourage hism to get better, but keeping him in his delusion? For what purpose? So that he can pat you on your back?

So your real purpose for misleading your friend and leading him into greater depths of delusion is really for yourself?

What kind of a friend are you?

Sheesh! Get you away from me! I will avoid you like the plague!

"Friends" like you are worse than enemies!

 

[Clockunder]

Your whole concept has one major fault ..... you don't need to be the best to be a better judge. :think:
Even if you have no driving licence, you can tell who is a good taxi driver.
You dont have to know anything about gardening to tell which gardener is capable.
You dont need to know how to cook to tell a good cook, “Show me your cooking and prove that you’re a good cook before you rant!!!”.

Lessons should be:
1. One can always open one's mouth if one has an opinion on something but the INTENTION must be good and should be make in an appropriate moment/situation. It's a God's gift to human to be able to improve others thru our comments - good or bad, right or wrong. I can't think of any other living thing able to do this. :think:
2. One should always be honest to our friends .... its sad if you think you should not!

That's my hidden messages.

The story and lesson learnt were purposely made up in such a way to make people see how ludicrous the world will be like if it is what was depicted in the story.

 

[Deadpoet]

elkin, I think those of us who saw the light, had always agreed that one does not have to be an expert to criticise, or hold an opinion. Clockunder's parable really hit the nail on the head, and pablo's real life expereince is also right on the money.

I really hope there is never going to be a general concensus. If everyone agrees on the same thing, how boring. Beside, without dissension, there will be no challenges to the prevailing viewpoint, there ill be no progress, worse, no correction even if the prevailing view point is incorrect.

We had been OT for a while, steering things back, I still cannot stand wannabe professional photographers, whose ony claim to fame is a big professional looking DSLR, and maybe did a paid shoot or 2, and know nothing about the craft nor the business.

 

[eikin]

I still cannot stand wannabe professional photographers, whose ony claim to fame is a big professional looking DSLR, and maybe did a paid shoot or 2, and know nothing about the craft nor the business.

for me it's an inevitable 'by-product' of full-fledged capitalism. other crafts have suffered such fate. we can only seek to educate those we know (like what this thread is doing) but will never be able to eradicate the 'problem'

 

[Clockunder]

Many other professions have set up institutions to uphold standards through exams and/or certifications and setting guidelines and codes of conduct etc., thereby building up public confidence in their professions.

Although this will not guarantee that everyone who has obtained the certification will be good in the profession, it ensures that those who have been certified have at least a certain minimum level of professional knowledge and experience. E.g. those who have obtained the Chartered Financial Analyst (i.e. CFA) designation from CFA Institute (an institution in the US) have at least a college degree, have passed through 3 levels of difficult CFA exams (each level held once a year and the passing rate is low every year) and have at least 3 years of relevant experience. They may or may not be good in their profession but at least they would have a certain minimum level of relevant knowledge and experience. Moreover, the CFA Institute set guidelines and codes of conduct so that those who contravene them would be suspended or stripped off their CFA designations. In this way, public confidence in the CFA designation has been built up and the CFA designation has been recognised worldwide in this profession.

Of course this does not mean that those without the CFA designation are precluded from working in the industry. It's entirely up to the employers to decide.

As a result, professionalism has improved over the years although it's not perfect.

 

[eikin]

Many other professions have set up institutions to uphold standards through exams and/or certifications and setting guidelines and codes of conduct etc., thereby building up public confidence in their professions.

Although this will not guarantee that everyone who has obtained the certification will be good in the profession, it ensures that those who have been certified have at least a certain minimum level of professional knowledge and experience. E.g. those who have obtained the Chartered Financial Analyst (i.e. CFA) designation from CFA Institute (an institution in the US) have at least a college degree, have passed through 3 levels of difficult CFA exams (each level held once a year and the passing rate is low every year) and have at least 3 years of relevant experience. They may or may not be good in their profession but at least they would have a certain minimum level of relevant knowledge and experience. Moreover, the CFA Institute set guidelines and codes of conduct so that those who contravene them would be suspended or stripped off their CFA designations. In this way, public confidence in the CFA designation has been built up and the CFA designation has been recognised worldwide in this profession.

Of course this does not mean that those without the CFA designation are precluded from working in the industry. It's entirely up to the employers to decide.

As a result, professionalism has improved over the years although it's not perfect.

that'll probably require a photography institution that can command such an authority, which i haven't seen any capable enough in Singapore. also if those really in the profession themselves cannot come to an agreement, there's nothing us hobbyists and amateurs can do.

 

[Canonised]

I still cannot stand wannabe professional photographers, whose ony claim to fame is a big professional looking DSLR, and maybe did a paid shoot or 2, and know nothing about the craft nor the business.

There is a world of difference between someone who calls himself a professional and someone whom you call a professional ..... :think:
How do you differentiate a professional doctor who makes millions from applying botox to young, beautiful women and another professional doctor who sleep in a tent and helping hundreds of poor people in some corners of the earth. They are both right if they call themselves as professional doctors.
Learn to treat this type of claim as minor statement from ppl who has not seen a bigger world.... :bigeyes: The more a person sees, the more a person appreciates "Humility".

 

[ParkertR]

been reading the 11 pages since abt an hour ago and slowly digesting the whole thing that DP started. i've come across various people who've claimed to be professionals in their own right, in photography... hell, i sell camera stuff like pablo too, but im not a professional - others might call me a 'pro' but to call myself a professional in camera accessories or in taking pictures is like shooting myself in the foot.

Canonised just posted that *i quote* "There is a world of a difference between someone who calls himself a professional and someone whom you call a professional". I think that the people we're mad at would be the ones who call themselves professionals. It probably is an ego-boosting thing to be called a "professional" in whatever you're in, in this case, a photographer... I know a few guys who are earning their bread n butter doing photography, but they don't call themselves professionals at all, in fact... the words "still learning la... not pro yet" are so very oftenly repeated by these few individuals. Perhaps for someone like me who's definitely a dead amateur in photography doesn't have the stature to be saying this, but i think that if there are people we can't stand who call themselves professionals in whatever areas they're in, they're not worth our time brooding over real professionals are acknowledged without having to say a word.

 

[vince123123]

Would you call him a professional doctor if he only treats like 1 or 2 patients a year, and on top of that, half his "patients' are his mother/father etc? But he has the top of the line MRI/CAD whatever machines. Perhaps you've misunderstood Deadpoet's intentions.

There is a world of difference between someone who calls himself a professional and someone whom you call a professional ..... :think:
How do you differentiate a professional doctor who makes millions from applying botox to young, beautiful women and another professional doctor who sleep in a tent and helping hundreds of poor people in some corners of the earth. They are both right if they call themselves as professional doctors.
Learn to treat this type of claim as minor statement from ppl who has not seen a bigger world.... :bigeyes: The more a person sees, the more a person appreciates "Humility".