To Moderators-- Y close my Poll Thread: Remove WTB/WTS ads in Kopitiam?

[nudi]

Hi Moderators

This is my last post with regards to this issue.
The reason being it really looks bad on the clubsnap moderators if you continue to close my thread time and again without actually answering my questions.

I doubt I can ever convince u of my real intentions cos perhaps u think that i am just a troublemaker, trying to stir some spice into clubsnap.

Since clubsnap (seemed like to me at this point of time) is not too receptive of feedback and comments pertaining to their management, I do not see the need of explaining my intentions/feedback any further.

In case, some of the moderators have yet to realise, some of the terms that they have used to describe me in their so-called "explanation" are demeaning and provocative. MAybe this is one of the areas that the moderators can consider to look into when you decide to reduce the amount of hostility (in exchange of views) in the forum.

Just a word of advice, you do not really have to prick just to show that you have thorns.

With that, I rest my case.

 

[espn]

I think it's you who didn't realise, I find that Edmund and Jason has already very clearly and taken pain and effort to time and time to reply and tell you WHY.

If you choose not to accept the reason, there's no need to carry on asking. Because now the ball is in your court, you chose not to accept it. Nothing they can do right?

Btw, this thread is another one to get locked

 

[Stylus C34]

hi stylus

since my thread is closed once again, i have no other choice by to reply u via pm.

hmmm... i sounded very singaporean?!
haha... well, i can sure be considered the typical complaint-king singaporean.

I used to think that clubsnap is a public forum & the information published are going to be unbiased in the sense that the moderators will not manipulate/discard any data that might pose a potential query to the actions taken by CLubsnap system.
I think I am wrong in my judgement.

The forum is not public property. If you are not in line with the clubsnap moderators, sorry, bye, ur thread will be closed.

So similar to our political situation.

Thanks for replying.

Sounds quite right, you are indeed one typical complain-king which is boring, demanding, grumpy, egostic and getting things very personal. More then just a singaporean actually.

Just another question, do you pay tax?

 

[Darren]

Hi Moderators

This is my last post with regards to this issue.
The reason being it really looks bad on the clubsnap moderators if you continue to close my thread time and again without actually answering my questions.

We certainly do not "look bad" (speaking on behalf of the Admins/Mods) as we have attempted to reply to your thread in a civil and gentlemanly manner in both of your threads (here and here).

I doubt I can ever convince u of my real intentions cos perhaps u think that i am just a troublemaker, trying to stir some spice into clubsnap.

I don't recall seeing any information that purports to try convince any of us of your real intentions behind the poll/thread, other than that you were curious to see what other members thought, and that you miss the WTS/WTB ads in Kopitiam.

Since clubsnap (seemed like to me at this point of time) is not too receptive of feedback and comments pertaining to their management, I do not see the need of explaining my intentions/feedback any further.

We are generally very receptive of feedback and suggestions (members who joined us from our very beginning would be able to vouch for us), and it is precisely this feedback from members and moderators alike that the decision to remove WTS/WTB ads was made. Let me assure you that it was not an overnight decision, this was debated long and hard for several weeks before we decided on the final arrangement.

In case, some of the moderators have yet to realise, some of the terms that they have used to describe me in their so-called "explanation" are demeaning and provocative. MAybe this is one of the areas that the moderators can consider to look into when you decide to reduce the amount of hostility (in exchange of views) in the forum.

I do not see any terms used in the replies that are demeaning and provocative - please share with us what you personally feel is demeaning and provocative.

Just a word of advice, you do not really have to prick just to show that you have thorns.

To paraphrase your quote, "You don't need a thorn to be a prick." - please note that I am not referrring to you personally nor attacking you specifically, just quoting.

 

[limhousen]

From the sidelines, these are my observations:

Nudi seems to be angry with the poll being closed without having a chance to run its course rather than with the WTS/WTB ban.

The answer to Nudi's question is not to explain why WTS/WTB is banned. It is rather to explain why the moderators do not want to see any mention of the issue.

Maybe the moderators are concerned that a new round of discussion may stir up resentment or displeasure with the decision or decision maker(possibly taking up unnecessary bandwidth). Therefore the prompt and decisive closure of the original and subsequent threads.

I dun think it is the intention of the original thread to muster votes to overturn the ruling. It is implicit that forum owners have final say. Its just that polls are so widespread a tool to collect grassroots sentiment that when it is abruptly ended, some may view it as an affront to a democratic process (which this forum and most other forums obviously are not).

And yes. It is true that moderators sometimes get overzealous in housekeeping, even adopting a taunting or 'talk-down' tone when bringing threads back into line.

The poll, in its short life, has interestingly shown results in favour of the decision to ban WTS/WTB postings in kopitiam (3 YES and 3 mild NO). Irregardless of the final outcome, it is obvious that the poll will eventually just be a statistic that may be of interest to forumers. Nothing conclusive can be derived.

 

[lavenderlilz]

I think it's you who didn't realise, I find that Edmund and Jason has already very clearly and taken pain and effort to time and time to reply and tell you WHY.

If you choose not to accept the reason, there's no need to carry on asking. Because now the ball is in your court, you chose not to accept it. Nothing they can do right?

Btw, this thread is another one to get locked

heh sekali kena banned & I dun mean u ;p

 

[Winston]

"I used to think that clubsnap is a public forum & the information published are going to be unbiased in the sense that the moderators will not manipulate/discard any data that might pose a potential query to the actions taken by CLubsnap system.
I think I am wrong in my judgement."
responding to nudi and others who think like him

The problem with the net nowadays, is that many people (though the tendency is immature young kids or teenages) treat it like some "hong lim speakers corner" (even that has rules and regulation on what not to talk)

They let loose their unhappy feelings and bad comments abt this shop and that company, thinking the net is one big public toilet for them to walk in, do whatever they need and walk out.

Every forum has rules and regulations (in case, like thousands of others, you choose to scroll down and click 'Yes' or 'OK' or 'I agree' without reading)

If you can't follow the rules to post 'WTB and WTS' in the right forum instead of the Kopitiam then I think you are just an inconsiderate person who has no concern to the moderators who are trying to maintain the messy forums.

Anyway, I am really glad the moderators are doing their roles and hence Clubsnap is free from another inconsiderate member.

IF you want a forum that allows anyone to come in and say what they want, try setting up one yourself and you be the admin.

 

[chngpe01]

"I used to think that clubsnap is a public forum & the information published are going to be unbiased in the sense that the moderators will not manipulate/discard any data that might pose a potential query to the actions taken by CLubsnap system.
I think I am wrong in my judgement."
responding to nudi and others who think like him

The problem with the net nowadays, is that many people (though the tendency is immature young kids or teenages) treat it like some "hong lim speakers corner" (even that has rules and regulation on what not to talk)

They let loose their unhappy feelings and bad comments abt this shop and that company, thinking the net is one big public toilet for them to walk in, do whatever they need and walk out.

Every forum has rules and regulations (in case, like thousands of others, you choose to scroll down and click 'Yes' or 'OK' or 'I agree' without reading)

If you can't follow the rules to post 'WTB and WTS' in the right forum instead of the Kopitiam then I think you are just an inconsiderate person who has no concern to the moderators who are trying to maintain the messy forums.

Anyway, I am really glad the moderators are doing their roles and hence Clubsnap is free from another inconsiderate member.

IF you want a forum that allows anyone to come in and say what they want, try setting up one yourself and you be the admin.

Same sentiment here :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[hori]

I am stating my views and opinions strictly on an observer's position

In the first thread that contains the Poll, the replies were civil and informative. The quickness of closing of the poll prompt Nudi to query about the action, in a polite but firm way I must add. The manner in the message was such because of the civil replies from the 2 moderators: BlueStrike and Edmund.

However, the reply to the second thread started by Nudi was somewhat abit insulting, from my point of view. Perhaps demeaning and provocative are too strong a adjective to use. However the reply from Admin Jason is not in the civil manner that the previous 2 mods had displayed.

For example:

The thread was closed for a good reason. In case, you didnt realise, our decision was made FINAL with alot of considerations and thoughts.

The second sentence does suggest that the receiver for the post is of puerile behaviour and do not understand the rules, either because of legitimate reasons (new member) or simply don't give a damn.

I will say that whatever decision made, the non decision-makers will not know whether it was made with alot of considerations and thoughts or not. Simply because they are not there when it was made.

And fyi I normally dont respond to similar posts like yours over at Kopitiam. Since you sound pretty new to this forum, let me give you a hint. If you start to scroll down the main forum index and realise theres a Feedback & Suggestions , maybe you will understand what I am talking about.

It seems to me that the admin is sounding high and mighty. The first sentence suggest that he don't have time for these unimportant complaints even if it was posted in the wrong subforum.

The third sentence again suggest that the poster is of extreme stupidity and needs a little shove to get the idea into his head. Perhaps a sentence such as "There is a Feedback & Suggestions subforum for you to post any complaints or content of similar nature" rather than "Since you sound pretty new to this forum, let me give you a hint. If you start to scroll down the main forum index and realise theres a Feedback & Suggestions , maybe you will understand what I am talking about."

However, Admin Jason try to reduce the intensity of his reply by suggest a meet up and a herbal tea treat. I think if Nudi was already pissed at Jason's reply, he will not give a damn about the treat.

I applaude the people administering this forum and their effort in maintaining this community. This forum has help me much in photography. Serving as a moderator and admin of sort at other forums, I do know of the nit picks of moderating and the "trauma" that it brings. However I do not agree that you have to resort to messages with a hint of insult to beat the "offender" over the head.

Bystanders will know who supposed to be condemn without the admin and moderators joining in the fray.

Cheers, have fun moderating!

 

[toasty]

I agree with much of what hori wrote above. I do not think that because a decision has been made on an issue (in this case disallowing WTB/WTS in kopitiam) means that a poll on the issue should also be disallowed. The reason given, was that there is no need for the poll as the decision has already been made. But perhaps the poller wants to know the forum sentiments, on the issue? No doubt the mods and admin in clubsnap spent considerable amount of time and effort to come to their decision, and we all respect their decision and will abide by it. However, this is not a reason to close the thread as Nudi would like to see for his own interest, what is the general sentiment of the forum to this decision.

It did seem to me a little heavy-handed in the action for what seemed like a benign and non-threatening poll. If it was for one's own interest in what the statistics of the forum were, I also did not see the necessity for closing the thread. It is a little bit like squishing out any possible signs of dissent.

I also agree with the sentiment that the users should try to see from the mods point of view to understand why a decision was made (in this case I am not clear if "the decision" was the decision to disallow WTB/WTS which no one is contending, or if "the decision" was the decision to close Nudi's thread which Nudi is contending). At the same time, I would encourage mods to try to see from the user's point of view, and how a user might feel if a seemingly harmless thread is closed without a good reason. I think it was Jason who said that "The thread was closed for a good reason. In case, you didnt realise, our decision was made FINAL with alot of considerations and thoughts. Since thats the case, theres no reason for the poll anymore."

We do appreciate what the admin and mods do for CS and I do think the reasons given _for disallowing WTB and WTS_ are valid. But I do not feel that closing of Nudi's thread was valid, as there are many many polls which are taken "without good reason", but simply for the interest of the poller. The reason that "there's no reason for the poll anymore" is not, IMO, strong enough to have it closed. Otherwise, there are a lot of polls out there that need to be closed.

If there have been other threads I have not read and stating my opinion without having seen the full picture, I apologize and will retract my statements and modify my opinion appropriately after having read them.

I will do a little bit of guess-work now as to the "real reason" that Nudi's thread was closed. My impression is that the topic was hotly and strongly argued among the admin and the mods, and perhaps certain users on the issue of allowing or banning WTB/WTS in kopitiam. The conclusion may in fact not have been agreed on unanimously and the discussion may have terminated with an unpleasant feeling of things left unresolved, even though the final vote was to ban WTB and WTS. These feelings of conflict and dissent have carried over into Nudi's thread/poll and caused the mods to react more strongly than they otherwise would have, because they feel the poll is threatening and could lead to a rehash of the same trouble that occured during their own debate on the issue. Thus the reason for closing the poll.

Disclaimer: The above paragraph is a guess and may be completely inaccurate. It is in no way implying the the mods and admin are irresponsible or shirking their duty, as they are human, and their reaction in the scenario I painted above has been a very human one.

 

[Edmund]

I agree with much of what hori wrote above. I do not think that because a decision has been made on an issue (in this case disallowing WTB/WTS in kopitiam) means that a poll on the issue should also be disallowed. The reason given, was that there is no need for the poll as the decision has already been made. But perhaps the poller wants to know the forum sentiments, on the issue? No doubt the mods and admin in clubsnap spent considerable amount of time and effort to come to their decision, and we all respect their decision and will abide by it. However, this is not a reason to close the thread as Nudi would like to see for his own interest, what is the general sentiment of the forum to this decision.

It did seem to me a little heavy-handed in the action for what seemed like a benign and non-threatening poll. If it was for one's own interest in what the statistics of the forum were, I also did not see the necessity for closing the thread. It is a little bit like squishing out any possible signs of dissent.

I also agree with the sentiment that the users should try to see from the mods point of view to understand why a decision was made (in this case I am not clear if "the decision" was the decision to disallow WTB/WTS which no one is contending, or if "the decision" was the decision to close Nudi's thread which Nudi is contending). At the same time, I would encourage mods to try to see from the user's point of view, and how a user might feel if a seemingly harmless thread is closed without a good reason. I think it was Jason who said that "The thread was closed for a good reason. In case, you didnt realise, our decision was made FINAL with alot of considerations and thoughts. Since thats the case, theres no reason for the poll anymore."

We do appreciate what the admin and mods do for CS and I do think the reasons given _for disallowing WTB and WTS_ are valid. But I do not feel that closing of Nudi's thread was valid, as there are many many polls which are taken "without good reason", but simply for the interest of the poller. The reason that "there's no reason for the poll anymore" is not, IMO, strong enough to have it closed. Otherwise, there are a lot of polls out there that need to be closed.

If there have been other threads I have not read and stating my opinion without having seen the full picture, I apologize and will retract my statements and modify my opinion appropriately after having read them.

Well, everyone's entitled to their own opinions of whats right or wrong. In ClubSNAP, it is the responsibility of the Admin and Mod team to set the precedence on what's acceptable in this community. No matter what one does, one can never hope to gain 100% acceptance.

In nudi's case,
1) the thread title was misleading since, for some pple, a poll entitled "Remove WTB/WTS Ads from Kopitiam?" could sound like one is trying to garner enough votes to change the decision OR make the decision. This is of course, until one reads his first post clearly and digests it.
2) from past experiences, a thread like this tends to get really long and over-discussed, making it extremely difficult for newer members to catch up with no benefits.
3) I had attempted to post an explanation for why the Admin and Mods team have collectively decided to disallow WTB/WTS ads in Kopitiam for the knowledge of CSsers who wonder why the decision was made.
4) these reasons IMHO definitely outweighs leaving the poll just to satisfy the curiosity of some (who wanted the poll to remain for the former and not for getting votes to change the decision)
So, in the interest of
- not stirring up another "hornets" nest
- making sure ClubSNAP continues on track as a Photography Community
I closed the thread.

I will do a little bit of guess-work now as to the "real reason" that Nudi's thread was closed. My impression is that the topic was hotly and strongly argued among the admin and the mods, and perhaps certain users on the issue of allowing or banning WTB/WTS in kopitiam. The conclusion may in fact not have been agreed on unanimously and the discussion may have terminated with an unpleasant feeling of things left unresolved, even though the final vote was to ban WTB and WTS. These feelings of conflict and dissent have carried over into Nudi's thread/poll and caused the mods to react more strongly than they otherwise would have, because they feel the poll is threatening and could lead to a rehash of the same trouble that occured during their own debate on the issue. Thus the reason for closing the poll.

Disclaimer: The above paragraph is a guess and may be completely inaccurate. It is in no way implying the the mods and admin are irresponsible or shirking their duty, as they are human, and their reaction in the scenario I painted above has been a very human one.

You certainly paint a very negative picture with your "guesswork". Fortunately for us, that is completely incorrect and you'll be surprised, how popular a move it was amongst us Admins & Mods.

Well, enough of conspiracy theories.. lets leave this behind (its already been a month!!) and get on with the things to come.. like..
HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR OUR BIRTHDAY BASH ???

 

[goering]

I agree with much of what hori wrote above. I do not think that because a decision has been made on an issue (in this case disallowing WTB/WTS in kopitiam) means that a poll on the issue should also be disallowed.........

I think we should learn to respect the decision of moderators and admins. It is their prerogative to set the rules as they deem fit. It will be very difficult to moderate or to administer a forum if the admin has to justify every single move.

In this particular case, the admins have already gone to great lengths to explain their rationale

 

[toasty]

I think we should learn to respect the decision of moderators and admins. It is their prerogative to set the rules as they deem fit. It will be very difficult to moderate or to administer a forum if the admin has to justify every single move.

In this particular case, the admins have already gone to great lengths to explain their rationale

While I agree that the admin do not need to justify every single move they make, if a decision they have made does not agree well with some of those members that are constrained by it, I do believe asking for an explanation is not inappropriate.

I also agree that the admin have gone to some lengths to explain their reasoning on this matter, and even though I don't fully agree with their explanation, as Edmund said, you can't please everyone. So anyway, am quite willing to let this just drop. However, I do not believe that quiet acceptance of the rules is beneficial for the community at large. In fact, that is the purpose of having a feedback system.