Thinking of earning from photography?

[janshim]

I've been shooting for sometime. One of my friend loved what she saw in my portfolio. Asked me to shoot her engagement. I took the trouble to wake up early, skipped breakfast as I was late, took a long journey to her place. Spent 8hrs at her place, shooting the guests, bride and groom to be etc, poses the usual stuffs. I told her I'd charge her discounted rate as she's my friend. She knows darn well my full rate. So after 8hrs wasted and 1 1/2 months afterwards, I was given SGD 100. I have captured a lot of precious candid moments and took a lot of effort standing for the entire 8hrs! carrying the heavy nikon f2.8 17-55 and 70-200 lens (you should know how heavy those are!).
It seems everyone loved the pics. She kept showing it off and printed multiple copies for her relatives and friends, geez even her printouts cost more than my crap sgd 100!
Now she's asking me to shoot her wedding, I know what my answer would be.

It's good to be reminded of my inaugural blog article and timely too after a year since it was first published

http://shimworld.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/pro-for-nothing-and-insults-for-free/

 

[eow]

I've been shooting for sometime. One of my friend loved what she saw in my portfolio. Asked me to shoot her engagement. I took the trouble to wake up early, skipped breakfast as I was late, took a long journey to her place. Spent 8hrs at her place, shooting the guests, bride and groom to be etc, poses the usual stuffs. I told her I'd charge her discounted rate as she's my friend. She knows darn well my full rate. So after 8hrs wasted and 1 1/2 months afterwards, I was given SGD 100. I have captured a lot of precious candid moments and took a lot of effort standing for the entire 8hrs! carrying the heavy nikon f2.8 17-55 and 70-200 lens (you should know how heavy those are!).
It seems everyone loved the pics. She kept showing it off and printed multiple copies for her relatives and friends, geez even her printouts cost more than my crap sgd 100!
Now she's asking me to shoot her wedding, I know what my answer would be.

i'm curious, yr discounted rate to her is $100? or she give u that sum even u had told her otherwise?

 

[snowspeeder]

I've been shooting for sometime. One of my friend loved what she saw in my portfolio. Asked me to shoot her engagement. I took the trouble to wake up early, skipped breakfast as I was late, took a long journey to her place. Spent 8hrs at her place, shooting the guests, bride and groom to be etc, poses the usual stuffs. I told her I'd charge her discounted rate as she's my friend. She knows darn well my full rate. So after 8hrs wasted and 1 1/2 months afterwards, I was given SGD 100. I have captured a lot of precious candid moments and took a lot of effort standing for the entire 8hrs! carrying the heavy nikon f2.8 17-55 and 70-200 lens (you should know how heavy those are!).
It seems everyone loved the pics. She kept showing it off and printed multiple copies for her relatives and friends, geez even her printouts cost more than my crap sgd 100!
Now she's asking me to shoot her wedding, I know what my answer would be.

If $100 is your discounted rate, then that's what you asked for rite? Or did she short change you by simply giving u the ang pow of $100 less the special rate you gave her?

 

[Verticoastro]

I wish I had this to read Its a good thing my chosen area of speciality is pretty quiet. I have no intentions of going into this full time but more like one of those part itme students =p. Still what you have mentioned about the extra costs of having backups and devlivering the goods is true. I had a lens fail on me the night before an event and had to make emergency arrangements to get a rental, very nightmarish...

Me too, having a equipment failure...I had an Olympus DSLR as the main camera and a CF card die on me halfway during the actually wedding dinner shoot.. worst still during cutting of cake...luckily I have a film rangefinder with me and I sling back the digital SLR and bring up my ranger finder to shoot nearly half a roll before the CF card in my digital camera correct itself... I think a mechnical film camera might serve as a good backup... just in case your digital fails...

I had similar case too with a canon DSLR from my department, the battery indicator stated full but halfway thru the shoot it went dead... Luckily, I got a batt grip backup with 06 AA batt in it... load it and continue shooting... I got a Holga with me at that time... but it was not a back up camera... I use it to shoot a few frame while the CF card still reading....

 

[Verticoastro]

I've been shooting for sometime. One of my friend loved what she saw in my portfolio. Asked me to shoot her engagement. I took the trouble to wake up early, skipped breakfast as I was late, took a long journey to her place. Spent 8hrs at her place, shooting the guests, bride and groom to be etc, poses the usual stuffs. I told her I'd charge her discounted rate as she's my friend. She knows darn well my full rate. So after 8hrs wasted and 1 1/2 months afterwards, I was given SGD 100. I have captured a lot of precious candid moments and took a lot of effort standing for the entire 8hrs! carrying the heavy nikon f2.8 17-55 and 70-200 lens (you should know how heavy those are!).
It seems everyone loved the pics. She kept showing it off and printed multiple copies for her relatives and friends, geez even her printouts cost more than my crap sgd 100!
Now she's asking me to shoot her wedding, I know what my answer would be.

Hey, not to mention your time spent in front of your computer processing all the images of that day... those time also cost money... I also don't shoot for free anymore...

 

[DeSwitch]

I've been shooting for sometime. One of my friend loved what she saw in my portfolio. Asked me to shoot her engagement. I took the trouble to wake up early, skipped breakfast as I was late, took a long journey to her place. Spent 8hrs at her place, shooting the guests, bride and groom to be etc, poses the usual stuffs. I told her I'd charge her discounted rate as she's my friend. She knows darn well my full rate. So after 8hrs wasted and 1 1/2 months afterwards, I was given SGD 100. I have captured a lot of precious candid moments and took a lot of effort standing for the entire 8hrs! carrying the heavy nikon f2.8 17-55 and 70-200 lens (you should know how heavy those are!).
It seems everyone loved the pics. She kept showing it off and printed multiple copies for her relatives and friends, geez even her printouts cost more than my crap sgd 100!
Now she's asking me to shoot her wedding, I know what my answer would be.

At least you still gets SG100. I stood in for my wife's nephew's AD wedding and tea ceremony and I didnt even get a thank you note. Their Photographer MIA. However I only pass then a DVD of 500+ simple processed photos.

 

[canonG9]

not sure about commercial photography, but personally, i always thought the reason we chose the wedding pg was because of their style?

For commercial photography, you would have to listen to the artistic director as to how they want you the capture the 'essense' of the product.. whereas for wedding photographers, unless the couple are some kind of artistic people who wants to be in charge of every single shot and knows how the outcome is like (without blaming the photog for not being to produce what they want) , free reign should be given to the photographer to capture the wedding and express his style..

 

[ckuang]

not sure about commercial photography, but personally, i always thought the reason we chose the wedding pg was because of their style?

For commercial photography, you would have to listen to the artistic director as to how they want you the capture the 'essense' of the product.. whereas for wedding photographers, unless the couple are some kind of artistic people who wants to be in charge of every single shot and knows how the outcome is like (without blaming the photog for not being to produce what they want) , free reign should be given to the photographer to capture the wedding and express his style..

Actually in more developed markets, commercial photographers tend to be chosen for their specific style and the creativity they bring to the table. I've always found it interesting that it is quite common in Singapore for photographers to be left out of the creative loop, which seems quite strange and perhaps a little unproductive.

 

[canonG9]

well ... artistic directors dont want to be contradicted by the photogs mah...

personally, i find that photography is an artform, and the photog should be allowed to express his creativity freely, rather than be suppressed.. you wont go telling the artist Yue Minjun that his Noah's ark looks wierd because of the smiling face, which is his trademark (i believe?)

i was watching cable some time back.. they had a product photog who did print ads for pringles.. his style was not conventional, having big eyed, big headed real life models (digital manipulation) with exagerrated poses... but it was catchy and it was his style.. if would be wierd to hire him and expect him to provide conventional shots of the product..

 

[felix hug]

I agree with ckuang, but just out of curiosity. How many creative (i mean with an unusual concept and not just a pretty image) campaigns are actually "created" in Singapore and for how many is a unique photographers style needed or looked for. Most of the campaigns I have seen here, all what is needed is a photographer who is able to deliver a very clean, technical perfect lit and polished image.

The campaigns, who use more of the edgy, unusual photography are not as common as overseas. Its just the way things are here, but it does not mean that it will not change over time. Once in a while you see a campaign that has more juice to it and some gritty photography... As if those are just overseas campaigns and adapted to the local market??... I have no idea. I'm sure there are some good production houses here too.

Often its not only the style of the photographer that is the deciding factor, but also his or her celebrity status in the particular market. Similar to world class models, many photographers overseas get chosen for their xfactor and fame, rather then their unusual photography. eg. Helmut Newto shoots Pirelli calendar or Peter Lindbergh shoots such and such. However the case they had to get to that point, so I'm sure they are very good in what they do.

Just a thought.

 

[canonG9]

got to agree on the status part...

personally i hate abstract art as i find that it does not make sense.. i assume that abstract art became popular because some of the talented artists, somewhere along their life, switched over to abstract art.. and because of their status as an artist in the standard artforms (either after death or during their life), abstract art began to sell...

i always found art critics who analysed abstract art to understand the mood of the artist or whatever, to be very 'fake'...

ps : not OT, just stating example of status playing a part in marketabiity..

 

[godzilla60]

From my little experience in business, there are a couple of reasons why business (oh yeah, including photography) fails that have not been discussed so far :

- business owner invests in equipment on a huge scale, expecting handsome payouts only to realise that his/her equipments are way way under-utilised...

- business owner not getting a good contract drawn up to cover potential pitfalls and assigning liabilities because either they have a "it won't happen to me" mentality or they are naive. (The laws are biased on the consumer side, by the way...)

- business owner neglecting the cashflow management issue and may end up with lots of accounts receivable but not due til some time after their accounts payable are due...

The list is not exhaustive but some suggested remedies:
1. Do your market research and profile your target market segment, thus deriving the expectations and demands of the segment. Then you get the equipment/resource that is NECESSARY for majority of the potential jobs, renting the remaining few expensive equipments/resources for those few odd jobs. Then invest in those few expensive equipments/resources when those few odd jobs become way too frequent for renting to be economical. (Of course, this does not apply when you have guaranteed pre-booking of multiple high-paying jobs)

2. Get a good generic contract drawn up according to your business needs and liabilities. A good lawyer specialising in consumer laws should be able to advise you on the potential liabilites and pitfalls and what is fair to both you and the consumer. However, this option is not cheap (can cost almost 1K upwards) but you can modify the contract accordingly or use it for all your assignments, so the more jobs you take, the cheaper the rate of contract price per job becomes. (Of course, you can draft your own contract but take note that even an invalid condition of your contract may invalidate the entire contract).

3. Plan your cash flow. Cash is king. Delay as long as possible accounts payable, but collect payments as soon as possible. Collect payments according to milestones in the job: (e.g. 40% deposit, 20% upon choosing of photos, 40% upon delivery of photos). This will spread your collections and give you more cash to play around then when you collect one balloon payment at the end. Also prevent your collection from being tied up due to dispute just at the last stage.

Hope these advice is relevant to anyone when considering a business out of photography.

 

[m3lv1nh0]

Oh man.. I wished I have this article earlier... I have just started doing freelancing for ROM and weddings and I think I am seriously under charging based on what I read here. I have no idea how to charge as I feel I am a just beginner and I got not much portfolio to show.

Can anyone tell me what to do as now I have about 13 confirm jobs from Mar till next yr. All is peanuts charges..

Mel

 

[airmj]

From my little experience in business, there are a couple of reasons why business (oh yeah, including photography) fails that have not been discussed so far :

- business owner invests in equipment on a huge scale, expecting handsome payouts only to realise that his/her equipments are way way under-utilised...

- business owner not getting a good contract drawn up to cover potential pitfalls and assigning liabilities because either they have a "it won't happen to me" mentality or they are naive. (The laws are biased on the consumer side, by the way...)

- business owner neglecting the cashflow management issue and may end up with lots of accounts receivable but not due til some time after their accounts payable are due...

The list is not exhaustive but some suggested remedies:
1. Do your market research and profile your target market segment, thus deriving the expectations and demands of the segment. Then you get the equipment/resource that is NECESSARY for majority of the potential jobs, renting the remaining few expensive equipments/resources for those few odd jobs. Then invest in those few expensive equipments/resources when those few odd jobs become way too frequent for renting to be economical. (Of course, this does not apply when you have guaranteed pre-booking of multiple high-paying jobs)

2. Get a good generic contract drawn up according to your business needs and liabilities. A good lawyer specialising in consumer laws should be able to advise you on the potential liabilites and pitfalls and what is fair to both you and the consumer. However, this option is not cheap (can cost almost 1K upwards) but you can modify the contract accordingly or use it for all your assignments, so the more jobs you take, the cheaper the rate of contract price per job becomes. (Of course, you can draft your own contract but take note that even an invalid condition of your contract may invalidate the entire contract).

3. Plan your cash flow. Cash is king. Delay as long as possible accounts payable, but collect payments as soon as possible. Collect payments according to milestones in the job: (e.g. 40% deposit, 20% upon choosing of photos, 40% upon delivery of photos). This will spread your collections and give you more cash to play around then when you collect one balloon payment at the end. Also prevent your collection from being tied up due to dispute just at the last stage.

Hope these advice is relevant to anyone when considering a business out of photography.

Your point number 3 is bad advice. If you yourself delay payment, how do you expect to collect payment promptly from others? What comes around goes around. And we all hate clients that delay payment for all sorts of minuscule reasons.

 

[godzilla60]

Your point number 3 is bad advice. If you yourself delay payment, how do you expect to collect payment promptly from others? What comes around goes around. And we all hate clients that delay payment for all sorts of minuscule reasons.

Haha.... let's be realistic.... everyone wants to collect payments promptly but pay as late as possible.

Point number 3 is not a bad advice, it is probably ambiguous. Let me clarify:

It is widely recognised as the principle behind good cash management. However, it depends on the extremity that this is practised. When I say delay payments, I don't mean go around avoiding phone calls and your creditors. What I meant is try to AGREE with your creditors on a payment date that is as far back in the future as you can. Doing so not only lets you manage your cash flow well but also to use the available funds to jump on any opportunity that may arise and also to have a reputation for paying on time (as agreed with the creditors), leading them to trust you with longer repayment periods.

However, on the other extreme, if you promise prompt payment or fail to request for a payment period acceptable to your business cash flow cycle but have to delay payments to your creditor even due to genuine reasons, you will be blacklisted for poor cash management and be labelled as a possible credit risk, earning you shorter repayment periods...

Hence, the key to point 3 is to agree with your creditor on a payment date as far into the future as possible from the start and once the payment date is fixed, keep to the date.

Hope this clarifies point 3.

 

[airmj]

Yes that's much better way to put it.

 

[snowspeeder]

Oh man.. I wished I have this article earlier... I have just started doing freelancing for ROM and weddings and I think I am seriously under charging based on what I read here. I have no idea how to charge as I feel I am a just beginner and I got not much portfolio to show.

Can anyone tell me what to do as now I have about 13 confirm jobs from Mar till next yr. All is peanuts charges..

Mel

Since you've already made an agreement with 13 couples for their AD photography, you've gotta honor it regardless how cheap or expensive your rates are. If you feel your rates are too low, then start charging higher the next couple that walks thru the door.

 

[snowspeeder]

From my little experience in business, there are a couple of reasons why business (oh yeah, including photography) fails that have not been discussed so far :

- business owner invests in equipment on a huge scale, expecting handsome payouts only to realise that his/her equipments are way way under-utilised...

- business owner not getting a good contract drawn up to cover potential pitfalls and assigning liabilities because either they have a "it won't happen to me" mentality or they are naive. (The laws are biased on the consumer side, by the way...)

- business owner neglecting the cashflow management issue and may end up with lots of accounts receivable but not due til some time after their accounts payable are due...

The list is not exhaustive but some suggested remedies:
1. Do your market research and profile your target market segment, thus deriving the expectations and demands of the segment. Then you get the equipment/resource that is NECESSARY for majority of the potential jobs, renting the remaining few expensive equipments/resources for those few odd jobs. Then invest in those few expensive equipments/resources when those few odd jobs become way too frequent for renting to be economical. (Of course, this does not apply when you have guaranteed pre-booking of multiple high-paying jobs)

2. Get a good generic contract drawn up according to your business needs and liabilities. A good lawyer specialising in consumer laws should be able to advise you on the potential liabilites and pitfalls and what is fair to both you and the consumer. However, this option is not cheap (can cost almost 1K upwards) but you can modify the contract accordingly or use it for all your assignments, so the more jobs you take, the cheaper the rate of contract price per job becomes. (Of course, you can draft your own contract but take note that even an invalid condition of your contract may invalidate the entire contract).

3. Plan your cash flow. Cash is king. Delay as long as possible accounts payable, but collect payments as soon as possible. Collect payments according to milestones in the job: (e.g. 40% deposit, 20% upon choosing of photos, 40% upon delivery of photos). This will spread your collections and give you more cash to play around then when you collect one balloon payment at the end. Also prevent your collection from being tied up due to dispute just at the last stage.

Hope these advice is relevant to anyone when considering a business out of photography.

Great advice. Thanks for sharing with all.

 

[krissuba]

I've to start off with a disclaimer. I'm probably the least qualified to be making this thread to give advice on commercial photography. But this is my 2 cents I can afford to give back to the community I had benefitted from. This is a feeble attempt to "educate" those who need advice on making money. Hopefully, a more consolidated one where other professionals and experienced part-timers can correct me where I am wrong, and add on to what I have to say.

Another disclaimer is, the intended audience of this thread is for the uninitiated. If you are experienced professional, part-time photographer who have already established your own business practices, feel free to correct me, or add on. It's not meant to dispute your practices.

The intention of this thread is for those who want to gain more experience, more exposure by going into commercial photography. Here, I loosely define commercial photography as paid photography.

Introduction
You have your nifty DSLR and some assorted of lens you are pretty happy with. You got a few keeper shots at your cousin/friend's wedding. You bought a light tent and some basic lighting setups and did some product shots you're happy with. You had been shooting runways and Junction 8 and pleased with what you saw. In a nutshell, you feel ready to take on the world of commercial photography. Hey, I enjoy doing it, why not make some money while doing it right?

Obligation:
As with all paid services, the payer has certain demands and expectations. These expectations could be straightforward and explicit. But some demands could be tacit and only surface when 'things go wrong'. I'll go into this list of 'things gone wrong' later. The demands can be in terms of the number of shots. The angles of shots, the colours, digital enhancements, prints, print sizes, form of presentation, punctuality, time-extension, change in dates. It would be good to come up with an exhaustive list as far as possible on what is expected of the deal, as well as agreed clauses to defend your interests, and allow your client to add on. Please add on the list of obligation from here.

Consequences of not fulfilling obligation:
I'll let 'pros' like vince fill in the legal obligations, or the lack of here. One of the other consequence is reputation. This is applicable to those who are more serious who want to consistently take on more assignments. For not fulfilling the obligation or expectation of the payer, the degree of hurt can vary. It can hurt very badly for wedding photography. The word gets circulated amongst brides faster than an expensive ad in the magazine. And the bad reputation can last for a long time. It wouldn't bother you if you're just in for a quick thrill and quick buck. But if you're serious about making it your part time job, or even full time career, it is extremely difficult to rebuild a hurt reputation. At least for wedding photography. Feel free to add on other consequences from here.

What can go wrong?
It could be as simple as your flash not working. Or your CF card failed you. Or you don't have enough CF cards. Or your lens is not long enough. Or your 3 weeks old DSLR suddenly stop working. Or the CF card you brought home after the shoot doesn't have any images in there. Or you don't have enough batteries for the flash or the body. Or the lens AF mechanism failed, and you are lousy with MF. It can be other people interfering with your shoot. People in the way doesn't mean you don't need to deliver. What happens when people get in your way? What happens if you cannot tell this people off or push them away? Predict and pre-empt this situations. Talk to other people with experience. Please add on potential screw ups from here.

Hi,

What our brother is articulating is absolutely correct. I have done digital photography for the past 10yrs. I have been using cameras since I was 10 and today I am still continue freelance photography for various events. I do not receive regular projects or assignments.
most of the events I covered so far is thru recommendations this include F1 Grand prix, IR ground breaking,elections, APEC, national Day, various RC,CC events. may a times the CF card fails, lens not working e.t.c. I am presently performing as part time to supplement income. I am having difficulty making ends meet thought I still hold a full time job. Photography cannot provide enough income unless you have a very strong customer base. If you have any events to cover be it private or corporate I will be available. my photos are all here in this website www.krissubaphotography.blogspot.com

initially when I embarked on photography as an income Imy photos were not goood and customers were complaining. At present I receive only compliments. and some of the customers do recommend others.

 

[ipsum34]

Great advice. Thanks for sharing with all.

Yup that was indeed good advice ;p