Thinking of earning from photography?

[phazed1]

I agree with ckuang, but just out of curiosity. How many creative (i mean with an unusual concept and not just a pretty image) campaigns are actually "created" in Singapore and for how many is a unique photographers style needed or looked for. Most of the campaigns I have seen here, all what is needed is a photographer who is able to deliver a very clean, technical perfect lit and polished image.
...
Often its not only the style of the photographer that is the deciding factor, but also his or her celebrity status in the particular market. Similar to world class models, many photographers overseas get chosen for their xfactor and fame, rather then their unusual photography. eg. Helmut Newto shoots Pirelli calendar or Peter Lindbergh shoots such and such. However the case they had to get to that point, so I'm sure they are very good in what they do.
Just a thought.

I would like to say that creative directors do not simply pull their ideas out of thin air, and they often need to have a very good sense of reality of what is achievable in sg. Local photographers do have their own way of seeing the world that is different, maybe cos we're Singaporeans. There's no comparison with photographers from other countries unless you consider yourself an international freelancer. I think that once a local talent is spotted for his/ her style, there is a chance that a campaign or a project might be tailored to fit that specific style. Perhaps that is how i look at 'x-factor'. There's a great deal of PR involved. Or at least a lot of luck.

If we didn't get hired specifically for the way that we shoot then i suppose its just a normal chore where everything from the concept to the cropping and perspective has already been decided upon. Sort of like how a woman brings a Chanel catalog to a tailor and gets him to 'make this for me'.

I tend to fall into the later category since i'm a newbie and a nobie (nobody : P) and i gotta live in the meantime. But I'm hopeful that maybe one day I'll shoot something nice! Just maaybeee... : P

I loved this thread, it's so sad, realistic and informative all at once. :thumbsup:

 

[bresson]

I recently picked up my camera and decided to do commerical/wedding photography, wherever the money is. Like what this forum says I might sound like a naive newbie but after so many years working as a senior designer/art director and running my own business I seriously think dat in this creative market, judgements are always subjective. It depends on how you are gonna swallow it and move on.

Let it be a logo I did, i say nice, clean. Client says no....must have multi-color...I give my professional advice, once, twice, thrice. Ok I give up, hes the client. bo bian.

Same goes when i started out working as a junior art director, I say photo nice, creative director say not nice. Ok fine, hes the boss. LL, I swallow and learn.

After being an art director, with a few stints as a photographer's assistant back den, I know what they are talking about and what they are doing, plus the creative eye and experience. I always try to get them to do the perfect shot...i might sound hard to please, but as a art director, my client is behind my back, and i can't have double standard which makes me responsible of how the picture is gonna look like and i wanna immortalize my ideas.

And running my own show...god, I need to manage everyone, clients who dont pay up, insist dat things are not right, want big discounts. Or ridiculous demands and attitude. Of coz im just only sharing the negative side.

My bottomline is, in this industry, you gotta learn how to manage and be prepared for every single situation: file corrupted, missing links, CMYK/RGB, model being late, bad weather, laptop not working, clients kaobeh at you, refuse to pay...etc etc

Also learn more from different perspective, clients' side, creative side. Write good contracts, learn how to market your business, r/s with clients, suppliers, cashflow, etc etc.

My equipment is pretty much supplied by the design business, like Macs and cameras...so im still breathing.

 

[ktay07]

I sensed deep frustration :nono:

My last wedding job was 10 yrs ago, got introduced by a friend to take up this job... met the couple at a 2rm flat in Bt Batok to quote & show portfolio.I quoted S$ 600/- which later, preached/begged by them to lower to $350/-.

They negotiated in such manner that I took a 'pity' & accepted the price...what more could U asked from a 2roomer ?

On the big day, I was totally hurt for what I encountered:- The man came in big Merc that I realised was his ! Shockwaves struck again when I reached a big house packed with posh cars in Katong & that was their nest:bheart: He later showed his studio ablum around to relatives which I figured would cost 5 digits.

This incident had me rethink what kind of photography I really wanted. It would not be the last time if I stayed on.NO NO No give chance anymore, I gave up wedding photography.

I'm happy shooting advertising & other high value assignments now than to get involve in wedding photography.

See the forum, U would notice the amount of cameramen & women in this **** trade, face it, U can't steer away from the variety of characters emerging from this lot whose many, would resort to anything- goes- attitude.

Some out there really dun mind rotting the apple many many times.

And beware of Well heeled Beggars !

Wow... that's super unethical.... My heart goes out to u....
I'm thinking of starting out my freelance photography business too... Hopefully won't get too deterred by all the sad stories out there!

 

[krissears]

Very materialistic world.... everything about money... :cry: no wonder pple commiting sucide or turn to terrorism... :bsmilie:

I have to say this is a very interesting thread but I really laughed at this comment for some bizarre reasons... it's just so random. :bsmilie:

 

[Demitry]

of course you can earn from it if you will make it a business....

simulation emprunt immobilier​

 

[minzy]

I believe this to be my very 1st post in CS. Have been reading silently ever since I laid hands on my DSLR my uncle bought me.

Truth be told, I am suffering from the syndrome of "newbie thinks that if I have the right techniques I can progress to doing wedding shoots for friends for free/cheap to build my portfolio and hopefully move on to paying assignments in future".

Read: I am really a complete newbie in that I have only started to grasp the meaning of aperture/ shutter speed/ iso/ composition not more than 2 months ago.

However after reading through this entire thread, I am more enlightened yet confused.

I am intending to polish up my skills by playing with my precious camera more and then will beg/ask for opportunities when my friends get married.

However, this thread has made me think twice about covering friends/relatives' weddings for fear of being overwork and underpaid, or in my case work for free. Of course, I'm not in the best of positions to be picky now because I'm still a green amateur.

Basically, I"ve managed to completely confuse myself.
I will continue to get my basics right before I think so far ahead.

Words of thanks to shinken for starting this thread.

 

[tjana]

haha, every time i get tempted to start advertising wedding photog services i go back to read this thing, then cease and desist.

it's getting more and more tempting tho' as the years go by and equipment and experience grow (although bery slowly). what's the use of having nice stuff if don't use it more often (*), and better, earn money while doing it? haiz... how?

* got tired of taking pics of buildings, squirrels and random strangers.

 

[tausar]

i think need to apply wideangle to the possibilities...it is not always just wedding, event, advertising...there's a lot of other areas such as industrial, aerial, medical, etc

 

[rockmastez]

Good to attach as sticky..

 

[joehani]

Kudos to the TS for this thread! I think this is a great initiative to highlight the cost of running a business in photography in Singapore. This is a high risk business while it may seems like easy money to many who knows very little about this trade, let alone to run a profitable business.

I have a friend who shot a budget wedding without getting paid a cent when the photos were delivered! There was nothing much he could do since there was no contract being signed. I would also like to add that bad debts is another overlooked area for many budding entrepreneurs for photography. There is nothing one can do to recover the money unless he has some spare cash to sue the customer and, hope against hope, get him to pay up the dues.

Allow me to link a series of video by Rick Rickman. I think he explained this business just as well, too.

http://www.sportsshooter.com/special_feature/2002_luau_video/rickman_biz/index.html


Cheers and blessed journey to all!

tHank you for this link

 

[hori]

I believe this to be my very 1st post in CS. Have been reading silently ever since I laid hands on my DSLR my uncle bought me.

Truth be told, I am suffering from the syndrome of "newbie thinks that if I have the right techniques I can progress to doing wedding shoots for friends for free/cheap to build my portfolio and hopefully move on to paying assignments in future".

Read: I am really a complete newbie in that I have only started to grasp the meaning of aperture/ shutter speed/ iso/ composition not more than 2 months ago.

However after reading through this entire thread, I am more enlightened yet confused.

I am intending to polish up my skills by playing with my precious camera more and then will beg/ask for opportunities when my friends get married.

However, this thread has made me think twice about covering friends/relatives' weddings for fear of being overwork and underpaid, or in my case work for free. Of course, I'm not in the best of positions to be picky now because I'm still a green amateur.

Basically, I"ve managed to completely confuse myself.
I will continue to get my basics right before I think so far ahead.

Words of thanks to shinken for starting this thread.

We all start somewhere. So keep shooting

I do know of some people who just picked up photography for a couple of months and they progress quickly to shooting events and weddings or other photography jobs. How fast you learn and improve will determine how fast you are ready for a paid job. Or even a token pay job (just for the experience of shooting for money).

I'm a firm believer that the 'market' and 'norms' are around as guidelines, not rules. What is important is that you know your level of competence and behave accordingly (charge lower if you think you are still new, gradually increase your rates as your skills, experience and equipment improve).

 

[kriegsketten]

My second day in this forum, and I started it off with an interesting read. Very thoughtful and deep indeed (a very recommended reading to those who wish to pursue in this industry).

Frankly, besides the photography profession there are many creative professions here and everywhere suffering the same consequences with only a few who really succeeded in making it to the top. Hence the saying: "it's lonely at the top"... Needless to say, for all who made it, all have gone through barrages of woes, painful shedding of blood, sweat and tears. Patience, perseverance, determination, willing to take challenges and extreme criticisms, getting into pitfalls and learning to stand up from it, etc, etc... Lets face it... this is no different from any other profession in the world that we lived in. We just keep saying: "the grass is always greener on the other side..."

Some people say, you cannot take passion as bread and butter. While there is much ink in its truth, it certainly does NOT apply to every single soul. For some, their passion is SO strong that it will pull them through and oversee that they will survive every pitfall they encounter. Whilst for others, they ended up killing their passion (many reasons do apply)... Those who wants to succeed may do it dirty and gritty (spoiling market and so forth), and there others who will not compromise their principles and might still succeed (benevolence is a virtue afterall, and those around you will notice it, or might not). It is really about your WILL to succeed - survival of the fittest. Plain and simple.

For newbies getting into this profession, don't be discouraged by what has been said. Instead, learn from it all and arm yourself with this knowledge, for they meant well and may help you succeed in the endeavour. It may deter those who think they are too weak hearted to go into it - well, it might as well be now than later. YOU have to ask yourself this, are you ready to take up the challenge and face all those pitfalls suffered by others, and maybe new cases never encountered before? Give yourself many moons to think it over, calculate the risks, costs, etc (if you can afford the time) - heck, it is your life you're talking about! OR, like most extreme swimming coaches recommend to newbie swimmers, just jump into the deep end of the pool and see if you can swim to the surface and stay afloat!... Whatever it is, there is no straight answer to all your questions and doubts. Survival is already a gamble with life itself! And many have to discover it the hard way anyway, so might as well bite the bullet and get on with it...

Pretty profound eh? Sounds like a page ripped from a self-help bestseller... LOL - I hate to read those and never did bother with them! Well, just for your info, I came from many years of experience in the creative industry and understand very well what many of you have encountered and that everyone wants the best and not willing to pay for it (well, not everyone I'm sure, and there will be those who are fair - maybe because they've been through it themselves or for some other reasons...).

As a newbie about to enter a new horizon, if you are still confused after hearing all this, well good! That means you are human after all! You are strictly on your own - whether you have people (even loved ones) or means to back you up or not. Just stay strong and persevere. Live long and prosper (Spock's famous line) and there is truth in it! :sweatsm:

:thumbsup: Good read and good thread!

 

[Astroboy77]

everyone wants the best and not willing to pay for it (well, not everyone I'm sure, and there will be those who are fair - maybe because they've been through it themselves or for some other reasons...).QUOTE]

wat u say is freaking truth... totally well written...:thumbsup:

 

[liveevil]

hi all, just to share what i do to earn from photography.. click my blog link below. It is about microstock.. i don't have a big porfolio yet.. but i am able to earn US$500 in few months.

What's on the blog link that you want to show us? I dont see much info on microstock and how to earn from photography, just a bunch of referral codes...:think:

 

[DarkPa1adin]

In every business, one have to survey the ground on which he/she offers.
Identify customers and consumers,
-In sg ppl don't appreciate much about art, cuz many ppl are not well educated in this area enough to spend $$$ on it, maybe due to pragmatic and practical nurturing culture.
-What do these consumers think of photography? a sentimental valued time reference memory or just a piece of documented images?

Learn from BUSINESS GIANTS
-Dell = cost leader for pc (Sell super many plates of chicken rice just to survive)
-Apple = Premium price, Designed and repackage product w/o best of specs, as for its price, a pc laptop offer way better specs. (sell 20 plates of chicken rice a day may cover rent + salary for a month)

What have you to offer them?
-Apart from "mere photos"? (as they may see it that way)
-How about making a few styles/packages for them to choose

~more artistic style pay more?​

~Per Photo Billing at varied price? (something like commission apart from your hourly service)​

~Publication instead of just a photo album​

~Enlarge size framed photo of their choice​

The list is inexhaustible.
-TRADEMARK shot (maybe IR photography? it is definitely unique to see some IR wedding shots)
*Remember to add terms and conditions applied, 1.177% tax (Service Charge + compounded GST)

I think more often than not, i find that businessman must make the customer feel that they are important, can be trusted and not some fly by night company.

Pricing can be tricky.
-Don't lower price = no deal
-Lower price = question of professionalism

Depend on customer, signature shot is important. Sometimes skills is not just about shooting, but soft-skills in PR, the way u work.

Starting small?
-Hook up with a few bridal shops and ask them if u can incorporate your service to their gowns/make up.
-Learn some design skills and company to do publication/advertisement other than just taking photos?

And lastly, Business is to solve problem. Demand of the consumer

my 1 cent as a RP freshgrad in Art's faculty.

 

[DarkPa1adin]

And of course, after reading this thread, I will remain as a hobbyist
Not because of its difficulty, but because i hope to pursue animation or at least manga

 

[MusicME]

Thanks to all Seniors and contributors ... this thread is unique with a large dose of realism. Life's like that ... plenty of obstacle before you can even smell any success or reward.

I guess many times a beginner like me, relies on goodwill and friendships from seniors who have been around for sometime, to guide me one step at a time. Outside of photography, kind-souls had helped me to progress and learn from mistakes over the years and I appreciate what little things or thoughts they had done for me. I work on the principle of being humble and be prepared to listen.

Anyone who's willing to share more details into the day of a pro-photograhper, do pm me. Many thanks!

 

[Agetan]

Thought sharing what I know...

Here is life as a professional photographer (in 1 month breakdown) for Dec 2010...

Cost per month : $5000-$15000 to run the business.... here this is the bad news!!

Here is the days...
Dec 1 - Day off
Dec 2 - Shoot
Dec 3 - Shoot
Dec 4 - Shoot - shoot - shoot
Dec 5 - Day off
Dec 6 - Shoot - meeting clients, post processing
Dec 7/8 - Day off
Dec 9 - Shoot, business course
Dec 10 - shoot, post processing
Dec 11 Shoot, shoot, shoot, meeting, meeting
Dec 12 - Shoot, shoot, shoot
Dec 13 - Shoot, post processing
Dec 14-16 - Day off
Dec 17 - Shoot
Dec 18 - shoot
Dec 19 - Shoot, shoot, shoot, meeting, meeting, meeting...
Dec 20 - Shoot, post processing
Dec 21 - Shoot, shoot, post processing
Dec 22 - Day off
Dec 23 - shoot
Dec 24 - shoot, shoot, shoot, post processing
Dec 25 - Shoots
Dec 26 - post processing
Dec 27 - Shoot
Dec 28 - shoot, post processing, meeting
Dec 29 - shoot, post processing
Dec 30 - Day off
Dec 31 - shoots, shoots, post processing

The above is pretty much typical of every month and this is just cover the "Photography part"

Generally, on average, just add 3-6 hours a day running the company...

Here is how I spend 5-6 hours "business hours" everyday...
1. Emails
2. Phone calls
3. Processing orders
4. Creating new products/ideas
5. Reading books
6. Delivery/ servicing clients
7. Streamlining the business

and of course, I spend 1 hour every day... as "sanity hour"... watching movie, visiting CS...

One thing is... I do enjoy both parts, Business and Photography... you don't want to start a Photography business if you don't enjoy both parts.

Actually, the whole month working, the $$$ is seldom an equation.... I just make sure everything is done correctly, planning for the next 6 months and the money will come in when everything you do and plan match....

If you run a business in photography, make sure you make it "Personal"... and if you make the company as your "personal business", it will work.

Here is the value equation:
Value < Price = little to no business
Value = price = sufficient job
Value > price = too much business

So learn how to increase your "value" to alter the number of jobs you have each month...

oh last thing... stop complicate the matter... try to see things in the simplest way to tackle it...

Hope this give you some insight on monthly "business" of mine - just my typical month and nothing more than that... so stop interpret the wrong way...

Regards,

Hart

 

[NedKelly]

Thought sharing what I know...

Here is life as a professional photographer (in 1 month breakdown) for Dec 2010...

Cost per month : $5000-$15000 to run the business.... here this is the bad news!!

Here is the days...
Dec 1 - Day off
Dec 2 - Shoot
Dec 3 - Shoot
Dec 4 - Shoot - shoot - shoot
Dec 5 - Day off
Dec 6 - Shoot - meeting clients, post processing
Dec 7/8 - Day off
Dec 9 - Shoot, business course
Dec 10 - shoot, post processing
Dec 11 Shoot, shoot, shoot, meeting, meeting
Dec 12 - Shoot, shoot, shoot
Dec 13 - Shoot, post processing
Dec 14-16 - Day off
Dec 17 - Shoot
Dec 18 - shoot
Dec 19 - Shoot, shoot, shoot, meeting, meeting, meeting...
Dec 20 - Shoot, post processing
Dec 21 - Shoot, shoot, post processing
Dec 22 - Day off
Dec 23 - shoot
Dec 24 - shoot, shoot, shoot, post processing
Dec 25 - Shoots
Dec 26 - post processing
Dec 27 - Shoot
Dec 28 - shoot, post processing, meeting
Dec 29 - shoot, post processing
Dec 30 - Day off
Dec 31 - shoots, shoots, post processing

The above is pretty much typical of every month and this is just cover the "Photography part"

Generally, on average, just add 3-6 hours a day running the company...

Here is how I spend 5-6 hours "business hours" everyday...
1. Emails
2. Phone calls
3. Processing orders
4. Creating new products/ideas
5. Reading books
6. Delivery/ servicing clients
7. Streamlining the business

and of course, I spend 1 hour every day... as "sanity hour"... watching movie, visiting CS...

One thing is... I do enjoy both parts, Business and Photography... you don't want to start a Photography business if you don't enjoy both parts.

Actually, the whole month working, the $$$ is seldom an equation.... I just make sure everything is done correctly, planning for the next 6 months and the money will come in when everything you do and plan match....

If you run a business in photography, make sure you make it "Personal"... and if you make the company as your "personal business", it will work.

Here is the value equation:
Value < Price = little to no business
Value = price = sufficient job
Value > price = too much business

So learn how to increase your "value" to alter the number of jobs you have each month...

oh last thing... stop complicate the matter... try to see things in the simplest way to tackle it...

Hope this give you some insight on monthly "business" of mine - just my typical month and nothing more than that... so stop interpret the wrong way...

Regards,

Hart

Thanks for sharing.
Though I am not sure if that is how you might work yourself out. Perhaps this is more of a seasonal period + way to cover those more quiet months.
And as I understand it may also be a requirement due to the market.

I assume each shoot you typed, meant 1x client/ 1x business.
So say you need 10K to run the business per month (including tax, usage, fuel, travel, meal, rental, livelyhood, prints, products, maintenance and all costs factored in) and you charge 1K per customer, you are looking at 25K for this month.
So 15K profit that month.
If this is kept up, you are earning 150K++ a year, but working your butt off.

But if there is that number of jobs for every month, and you are up in your game (ie having really good eye for good photos, creating art from a shoot, and not just shoot and burn style), then it might be better to up the price and decrease the number of jobs.
2K a job now, will cut down 2x the number of shoots, freeing up more time for family, self improvement, ideas, better processing etc.
You may actually earn more depending on what situation you are in now.
1) if you are already providing decent quality prints/albums then it means you are producing less prints/albums per month = save more/ reduce business cost
2) however if you are providing none existant or low quality prints/album, then you may need to up the quality to be able to command that level of pricing. = earning the same (2x less album to produce, but each album can cost 2x more), or less as each album now might cost more overall.

Of course as mentioned, during certain months, there maybe less customers for certain type of business. eg weddings during the 7th month of the year may be non existant.
This is probably also when if you have alternatives style of photography to branch out to. eg sports/commercial/products.

 

[Agetan]

Thx for your pointers.

In my experience, at least from portrait business, every rise of 30% of pricing will result in 50% less in volume. Doubling the pricing generally will see 70-80% drop in the actual volume. Of course this assuming the value stay constant.

Price is still a sensitive part of equation.

By raising value could change the volume too and quality product is just a small part of value equation. Hope I make sense.

Regards,

Hart