Singapore a Great Nation....

[CYRN]

I did!!! I lived and worked in China for 4 years... so what's you point??

Then again, I would like to qualify.. I love my country.. just not the govt, and especially not the political party called ***. Mind you, many of you might think that they are one and the same. But they are not!!! Country, government and *** are separate entities. They just want you to think it is the same.

So when they use the people's money to buy vote, that is plain wrong!!!

So did your 4 years tell you Sg is "better"?

 

[CYRN]

Many years ago, people used to complaint that contributing CPF was taking away money from them. So they prefer to have cash and asked for cash from the company where they worked. However when they reach 55, they wish they have more.

The policy forces people to save. Eventually it allows people to buy houses, buy share(many got burnt etc etc...)

Many Ah Peks took the opportunity and went overseas and set up a short-lived second home. But when they game is over, they come back and complaint that they have no money. In the end they depend on their family or social service to support them...(I don't know whether we should help them as they are also Singaporean)

The CPF table showed that when you get older, your contribution get lesser? So why the complaint? Initially, they were against CPF and now they want more as people could see the benefit they reap from have the policy. Have they not forgotten or are some of them are too young to know the history?

It was clearly explained that inorder to attract bosses to employ the aged people, some measures had to be taken to reduce the cost of business. It is a win-win situation. Our Ah Gong and Ah Mah can continue to work at Food court, join the cleaning industry and have some income while having some exercise to past time.

The trouble with people is they are never satisfy(me included) with what they have and often are very ungrateful.

To me, if you are rich, everywhere is 'Heaven'.

The idea of CPF is really good.... but really, how many middle-income earners can achieve the minimum sum literally when not taking flat into consideration.

 

[Wibblo]

The idea of CPF is really good.... but really, how many middle-income earners can achieve the minimum sum literally when not taking flat into consideration.

true...especially before the last change in CPF policies capping the amount one could buy...most if not all....(since we talking about middle income)....will not have enuf in their CPF when minimum sum is calculated..

 

[CYRN]

on another note, i don't really understand your point in the last paragraph quoted.. the last i recalled, most pension schemes had the pension based on salaries drawn, scaled down significantly. this will be similarly, affected by inflation.

I tot we all the while have "pension" scheme called CPF... our salary gets docked now... and we pray hard that the interest paid overcomes inflation when we actually see the $$$.

And doesn't need to get stuck in a single company to enjoy it benefits.

 

[CYRN]

It also says,

"Rice feeds all of people as long as they can afford it."

mabbe it's time to start planting rice in HDB corridors... it seems perfect substitute for those rice farms, excellent for literally "green" building too. ;p

 

[Sion]

Singapore is a Great Nation.............

and i feel so small..........................

The demons in us always want to kill the greatness of our nation.

 

[Yappy]

Singapore is a Great Nation.............

and i feel so small..........................

Don't feel small. Feel great as we survive among the nations of big land.

Sometimes we loose sometimes we win and sometimes we have to compromise.

We are firm when we hang the.... and we are flexible enough to pay respect when we were there.

This is what survival all about.

Just want to know why do you feel SMALL

 

[Yappy]

The idea of CPF is really good.... but really, how many middle-income earners can achieve the minimum sum literally when not taking flat into consideration.

I am not an expert in money matter.

But i think spending within your mean maybe one of the solution.

I know of a Middle-income earner who save more than 50% of his monthly salary.

It is the life style that you choose and it decides your spending pattern/habit. if you want 'quality' than you got to spend 'quality' money including contributing to GST.

U can have a meal for $6 including drink and also having a meal at $500/person.

I cut my hair at a shop at $10 or I can choose to give it to David Gan at $2000/hour.

This may work:

Earn 'middle' income and spend at 'Lower' income. But but but..... it may not be good for the economy.

 

[CYRN]

I am not an expert in money matter.

But i think spending within your mean maybe one of the solution.

I know of a Middle-income earner who save more than 50% of his monthly salary.

It is the life style that you choose and it decides your spending pattern/habit. if you want 'quality' than you got to spend 'quality' money including contributing to GST.

U can have a meal for $6 including drink and also having a meal at $500/person.

I cut my hair at a shop at $10 or I can choose to give it to David Gan at $2000/hour.

This may work:

Earn 'middle' income and spend at 'Lower' income. But but but..... it may not be good for the economy.

ya... this is what everyone needs to do on top of the CPF.

What I meant was that the CPF, while intent is good, the execution isn't. Before, flats can be seen as an asset, but since the asian financial crisis, it seems more a liability rather. coupled with the increasing minimum sum, what is the actual value one gets in return for the monthly "contributions" of 45 years of work (assuming working form 20 - 65 years).

 

[sORe-EyEz]

is this possible? :dunno:

if from the get go got this mindset, of course not possible. but den the job is not even urs to begin with. :sweatsm:

 

[Yappy]

ya... this is what everyone needs to do on top of the CPF.

What I meant was that the CPF, while intent is good, the execution isn't. Before, flats can be seen as an asset, but since the asian financial crisis, it seems more a liability rather. coupled with the increasing minimum sum, what is the actual value one gets in return for the monthly "contributions" of 45 years of work (assuming working form 20 - 65 years).

Everybody is unfortunate due some smart Alex who decided to play with money. You are not alone, the whole world is behind you bros.

But at least we still have the CPF locked and secured earning interest above the market rate. Many have none. Many also have negative ?????

Inflation, higher cost of living etc are artifically created by man. Man created the problem, man must learn to solve the problem.

Everybody tells everybody that he spent e.g. $50,000 renovating his flat(He actually spent $10,000). Eventually $50,000 becomes a norm. Who is winner? The renovation contractor. Who is the suckers? We.. We we We create the inflation!!!

I was told that renovation contractor made 100% profit(correct me if I am wrong), if not they will not do the job..

When in Australia, we tell the people there.. your product is cheap cheap and cheap! So I increase to add value to my goods. So cost of living goes up.

You started to adjust, i also must do so as if do not, my earning becomes less. :sweat::sweat::sweat:

 

[kzone]

This may work:
Earn 'middle' income and spend at 'Lower' income. But but but..... it may not be good for the economy.

Best is earn middle income here & spend middle income in JB/Batam/Bkk... or in CS tradition earn middle income here & spend middle income in Hkg! The world is our economy now...

Everybody tells everybody that he spent e.g. $50,000 renovating his flat(He actually spent $10,000). Eventually $50,000 becomes a norm. Who is winner? The renovation contractor. Who is the suckers? We.. We we We create the inflation!!!

Who in the right mind would believe a 10K job to be 50k? u're exagerating but I get ur point... but actually the reno thing is not inflation.. its the higher standard of living.. u still can spend 10k on reno now. just dont hack any walls, no fancy fake ceilings, customised furniture everywhere...

 

[Sion]

Don't feel small. Feel great as we survive among the nations of big land.

We can't be a great nation without having great men.

 

[Sion]

I cut my hair at a shop at $10 or I can choose to give it to David Gan at $2000/hour.

Or you can cut your own hair and save the $10. :bsmilie:

 

[night86mare]

I tot we all the while have "pension" scheme called CPF... our salary gets docked now... and we pray hard that the interest paid overcomes inflation when we actually see the $$$.

And doesn't need to get stuck in a single company to enjoy it benefits.

ah.. i get what you mean; i thought alteredvision was talking about literal pension schemes, not cpf.

well inflation is a much less scarier monster than it is often painted out to be ; the media uses CPI (consumer price index) much of the time. like it or not, this is often an overestimation of inflation; since it does not take into account that people can shift their preferences in response to price increases, since the market's goods do not increase uniformly in price. nonetheless, i do think that interest paid in relation to inflation is of course a valid concern.

 

[night86mare]

if from the get go got this mindset, of course not possible. but den the job is not even urs to begin with. :sweatsm:

do you think it is even humanly possible to allocate resources efficiently such that the ones who need help get what they need? i already envision a scenario where everyone is fighting to be the ones who need help, you already see it happening.. people in mercedes going for free textbooks.. the list of examples about how ugly human nature is can go on - the point is that to filter the real "poor" from the fake "poor" or the nonsensical "self perceived poor" is literally impossible, unless you turn every single human into a saint.

if you insist that it is possible, just a matter of mindset, then pardon me while i call you overly idealistic; that or just playing devil's advocate for the sake of doing so.

 

[Canonised]

Where on earth could you owe a bank $x,xxx,xxx to live in a place that belongs to the bank for 25 years? Of course, Singapore is a Great Nation!:think:

 

[AlteredVision]

From all the confusion, I can see that I really need to work on making myself clear.

unfortunately, most people hardly get to enjoy a fun-filled, royalty-emulating lifestyle when they retire. the same is true for the past, the same applies now.

I dunno night86mare. I've admired your photographs for a long time, and don't really want to bash you over this. *must resist bashing... must resist... must...* Still, you really sound like certain people who are rich and can't see what it is like for the poor. :sticktong Such as in this excerpt from a parliament session. "..." indicates parts where I cut out stuff. Full transcript and argument can be read here http://www.parliament.gov.sg/reports/public/hansard/title/20070309/20070309_S0004_T0001.html#1

Dr Lily Neo (Jalan Besar): Sir, my single constituents told me that they needed to skip one meal a day to live on the $260 per month. And now, MCYS is going to give them $1 more a day. But, Sir, $1 a day will not be able to buy them one meal a day in any hawker centre
...
Am I correct to say that, out of $260 per month for PA recipients, $100 goes to rental, power supply and S&C, and leaving them with only $5 a day to live on? Am I correct to say that any basic meal in any hawker centre is already $2.50 to $3.00 per meal? Therefore, is it too much to ask for just three meals a day as an entitlement for the PA recipients?
...
Dr Vivian Balakrishnan: How much do you want? Do you want three meals in a hawker centre, food court or restaurant?

This is the type of safety net that you get here in Singapore.

i suppose it depends on what sort of idea you have about "basic needs" - all things considered, i certainly wish we could save everyone in the world, including the starving people in africa.. but how we go about doing that , how it can even be done, the work and time involved is simply too daunting.

No need to save the world from the get go. Starting with fellow Singaporeans is enough. Why worry about the rest of the world when you can't even help yourself? My idea of basic needs: 3 square meals and a roof over your head. If possible, enough money to buy a concessionary pass for transport too, so those who are still able to travel are able to get around some and hopefully don't sit there to "tan si" (waiting to die) like what a lot of the elderly are doing now.

but more to raise awareness that welfare ain't a bed of roses either.. it's more of a grass is greener on the other side syndrome.

You probably have a point. I do not understand other things that you have seen but I have not either.

i think it's noteworthy to take note that the pension system has another problem - loyalty to one company. how often do you find a person sticking to one company these days, all the way? it is a thing of the past - which is why i can see why it is a dying trend.

on another note, i don't really understand your point in the last paragraph quoted.. the last i recalled, most pension schemes had the pension based on salaries drawn, scaled down significantly. this will be similarly, affected by inflation.

well inflation is a much less scarier monster than it is often painted out to be ; the media uses CPI (consumer price index) much of the time. like it or not, this is often an overestimation of inflation; since it does not take into account that people can shift their preferences in response to price increases, since the market's goods do not increase uniformly in price. nonetheless, i do think that interest paid in relation to inflation is of course a valid concern.

ah.. i get what you mean; i thought alteredvision was talking about literal pension schemes, not cpf.

There are other forms of pensions. Besides, when the company cares only about profits, only an idiot would stay loyal.

The last stated inflation for the past year was 6.7%, as of Sept 2008. http://www.singstat.gov.sg/news/news/cpisep2008.pdf I don't know just what CPI is indexed to here, but it is definitely understating the inflation as far as I can see. Just about everything I usually spend on went up around 20% on average.

For example, lots of hawkers raised their prices from $2.50 to $3 (20%) or $3 to $3.50 (16.7%), and / or the portions also got smaller, and / or the quality gets worse, so in effect, the price actually went up more than the stated 16.7% or 20%. My family buys tiepan tofu from a particular stall pretty often. The amount of egg has been getting lesser and lesser (and they sometimes "forget" to put egg in the dish also), until today, when there was suddenly one big piece. This big piece of "egg" looked and tasted like they added flour and water (think soggy pancake in gravy *gag*).

And actually, you were right. I was talking about literal pension schemes - preferably ones where the payouts are indexed to inflation. Sure I can switch to cheaper stuff, but how many times can you do that before there aren't any cheaper stuff to switch to?

And for a final note, some figures to think about:

Assuming average annual inflation of 5%, interest rates of 1%, original amount of $10,000:

No. of years, How much $10000 is worth x years from now
1, 10000
2, 9619
3, 9253
4, 8900
5, 8561
6, 8235
7, 7921
8, 7619
9, 7329
10, 7050
11, 6781
12, 6523
13, 6275
14, 6036
15, 5806
16, 5584
17, 5372
18, 5167
19, 4970
20, 4781

 

[AlteredVision]

The CPF table showed that when you get older, your contribution get lesser? So why the complaint? Initially, they were against CPF and now they want more as people could see the benefit they reap from have the policy. Have they not forgotten or are some of them are too young to know the history?

My point was, CPF is just a tax by any other name, except that it doesn't even re-distribute income to reduce the income gap. Here's a very simple example with 10% to 40% tax:

Person A - $10000 salary, $4000 tax (40%) = $6000 after tax
Person B - $1000 salary, $250 tax (25%) = $750 after tax
Person C - $500 salary, $50 tax (10%) = $450 after tax

Total tax collected: $4300.
Amount left for benefits after costs and other uses etc: $1000 (assumption only)

With a normal progressive tax / benefit system, the poor get taxed less, and the rich get less benefits. With some arbitary numbers for illustration purposes:

Person A - $6000 + 10% of benefits = $6100
Person B - $750 + 40% of benefits = $1150
Person C - $450 + 50% of benefits = $950


That we have very little in the way of benefits is a point that I think no one will argue.

With CPF and lower taxes that only A has to pay however, A's salary may be lowered, but by less. B and C aren't much better off.
Person A - $10000 salary = $8000 after 20% tax
Person B - $1000 salary = $1000 = $1050 after random ad hoc bonuses
Person C - $500 salary = $500 = $650 after random ad hoc bonuses


Now for the arguable points:

1) CPF is supposed to be used in place of the benefits
2) The reason why CPF contribution for low wage workers is lower because they don't have enough take-home salary every month to live on if a full 20% deduction is made

If they have barely enough to live on every month, do you think they will be able to save? With lower CPF contributions, and next to nothing for benefits, who are they going to turn to when they are in need? What are they going to use for a pension when they're old? Minimum wage may be a possible answer. Throwing away their future is not.

 

[AlteredVision]

A Chinese saying "Rice feeds all of people; rich or poor"
Conservative, in-between and non-conservative(Dont know what word to use)

Phew... after the two long posts, must speak a bit of nonsense to lighten up. The word to use is "bankrupt" :angel: