Regarding Render III

[Zhiliang]

Wont happen unless he has nicks like Wills, joHo, imasaint, or even Sion ....:bsmilie: :sweatsm:

so will Zhiliang opens a new thread like, Regarding Render III ? :think:

Dear all,

There are always 2 sides of a coin and faces of people we dont see and hope not to see. There are times when we think a reply to an accusation is not necessary, and a utter waste of time. There are times when we feel that holding our silence and peace is more precious than going to the gallows. "Regarding Render III"??? Were there "Regarding Render I or II"? Well, certainly a bait to start my own thread to at least say my own story out?

Well, before i begin, i will have to set my own side of my story out in a way which happened to me on my side. Have you watched Flags Of Our Fathers and Letters From Iwo Jima? I am recreating something along that sense but perhaps in this instance, its 2 movies made from 2 different directors.

1. First of all as i noticed a clubsnapper mentioning that there is no signing of black and white between the client and the agent / agency (was there a registered one?).

2. Days before the actual shoot, we agreed over MSN with a 50% deposit and a 50% upfront payment to the model on the day of that shoot. From some advices also from clubsnappers which i will decline to name, i am adviced from their past bad experiences to ask the agency whether we can agree on a 25% deposit and a 75% upfront payment to the model on that actual shoot. And i did just that, reminding everyone that i asked the agent politely. What i had in return was a scolding and a nasty advice about testing her patience. A nasty advice that contains explicit words that i believed should not be uttered in these dealings between clients and agency.

3. Some cooling down done after i reminded her that all i did was ask politely. And credit given to Render, she cooled down. We stick by the 50/50 arrangement. At that point of time, fellow clubsnappers were saying that i should drop this shoot as it would not make sense with the relationships already strained. And besides that, no agency, regardless how big should be that hostile in their business discussions. Render went on to make a very valid point on how the model has already agreed and set aside the time and its going to be very unfair to her. Thinking of all that, i agreed and feel that that is only the right thing i can do.

4. Instead of the agreed friday deposit payment, due to my goodwill, i decided to deposit the money into her account on Thursday night. It was done via UOB cash deposit and the deposit was not a fund transfer, but rather cash transferred in thru her account number. From experiences, transfer done this way, usually gets through immediately without any hassle. Instead, Render checked her account and told me that her bank amount stays the same. I was shocked, what now???? I was asked to produce an image of the receipt that comes together with the transaction which i duly obliged. Still her general conviction was that i did not pay up. I had to tell her later on that i am going to go straight to the bank to check (in fact i made a call to the bank operators at 2 am. just to clear up the problem with assurances that the amount is definitely in her account), for her to actually realise.....

5. Credit to Render again, on Friday she came back to me to clear that she has gotten the money. So good... Wow, the money is all of a sudden "in the account" again. Was it a misunderstanding or something else...? I leave it to your imagination...

6. Shoot on actual day went well and i paid up the other 50%. Model asked for her pictures to be sent to her and i agreed. We exchanged MSN addresses. I asked too, if there are future opportunities, should i contact the agency straight or to the model herself. Her answer was as vague because she mentioned that both alternatives are fine for her. Well thinking back, that was politically correct.

7. Repeated requests from both agency and model to send them the pictures taken. Communications with the model through MSN is because of this arrangement. A question raised during this time to the model was whether she would be free for shoots the next month. A reminder that this is not even an arrangement for an actual shoot bypassing the agency. Scenario being model is currently at the agent's house and agent chanced upon the MSN messages. Model tells me immediately that her agent is reading this message and she feels that anything, i should go through the agent, again very politically correct. I being honest said something along this line, "No offence intended, but i am not thinking of going through Render again due to the bad experiences i have encountered, and if that is so, i would rather not shoot at all." This was my choice.

8. Agent turned nasty immediately and threatened me with violation of her laws which we didnt even sign. Words like F*** you were uttered immediately and it even went personal. Personal things like "you photo shoot sucks" were mentioned. So pray tell me Render, why were you begging for me to send you "sucky photos"? I am a amateur in photography. And i pay for shoots without having the need for agency to tell me how sucky i am. Perhaps all of you out there can imagine going to Sakae Sushi to buy yourself a dinner, and having the manager over there tell you, that the way you eat sushis is plain sucky and disgusting.

9. I always feel (again they are my own opinions) that no one or agent or agency can think themselves too high up, too untouchables that they can blast anyone they like. Yes i mentioned that i have nothing to lose. Because for me, if there are no Azure Modelling, there are always countless others out there. I made my choice never to go through them again, and these are my opinions that i am entittled to.

I rest my case.

 

[zekai]

round three! FIGHT.

 

[hongsien]

I think the main point is that you should never take pics of the model outside of the agent, no matter whether there is a written contract or not (in fact verbal agreements (if proven) are binding too), it is about integrity, that's why there is an agent.......

The fact that you asked the model if you should go through the agent or not is I think not a good thing. I understand that you didn't want to go through that agent again, but you could have gone to another agent and all this would have not have happened.

Whether she is a bitch or not, is not relevant here.....

HS

 

[AhV]

I usually dun like to read long posts..but in short, as long as it is a paid shoot, you are NOT REQUIRED/ OBLIGED to give/ send any photos to any agencies ...... it's not market practice..so, dun spoil it le :sweat:

 

[eikin]

... Have you watched Flags Of Our Fathers and Letters From Iwo Jima? I am recreating something along that sense but perhaps in this instance, its 2 movies made from 2 different directors.
...

wait, before i continue reading your very long post, Flags Of Our Fathers and Letters From Iwo Jima are directed by the SAME director! :sticktong

anyhow quote :nono:

ok, i'll go back to read the post ...

 

[Cheesecake]

zhiliang, u paid for the model's services and u still gotta gif them the fotos????


incredible! it shouldn't happen at all.

 

[Cheesecake]

wait, before i continue reading your very long post, Flags Of Our Fathers and Letters From Iwo Jima are directed by the SAME director! :sticktong

anyhow quote :nono:

ok, i'll go back to read the post ...

he knows la. wat he is saying is that this time round, his own movie and render's are by two different 'director' and not the flags and love letters. :bsmilie:

 

[eikin]

he knows la. wat he is saying is that this time round, his own movie and render's are by two different 'director' and not the flags and love letters. :bsmilie:

yawn ... what movie? CS box office ah? :sticktong

 

[Cheesecake]

yawn ... what movie? CS box office ah? :sticktong

:bsmilie:

 

[Caspere]

<shaking my head>

 

[night86mare]

Quick, settle it 1v1 street fighter style. Chun Li versus er.. What are all the male street fighter names ar. :bsmilie:

Just settle it amiably la. Life so short, make more friends better than make more enemies. Both say sorry both happy la!

 

[yqt]

Just my 2 cts worth:

1) to give or not to give the model/agency any images from the shoot is depandent on what was agreeded before the shoot. Don't matter if it was a paid shoot or not, if you agreed to pay and still give images, than it's something agreeded upon and should be done.

2) to ask model if you should go through her or the agency for jobs, is normal as some models are not contracted to the agency, so they can freelance on their own. Maybe the way it should be done is to ask if the model is contracted to the agency and under what terms to see if it may be possible to shoot the model through another agency ( lower rates? ) or just direct. But if it was already agreeded that this photographer who got to know the model through this agency can't contact her directly, before the shoot, than the photographer should not approch her directly.
If the photographer do approched her directly, he have to prove that the model is just freelancing for this agency and he got to shoot/meet the model through another agency/source and that agency/source allow him to contact this model directly. This is debatable but not uncommon in the market practise.

Just my thoughs on what is the common practise.

 

[kyo86sg]

Quick, settle it 1v1 street fighter style. Chun Li versus er.. What are all the male street fighter names ar. :bsmilie:

Just settle it amiably la. Life so short, make more friends better than make more enemies. Both say sorry both happy la!

Chun Li VS EE honda~ ;p

CS photographer VS CS Agent(organizer)

 

[jeff49er]

I usually dun like to read long posts..but in short, as long as it is a paid shoot, you are NOT REQUIRED/ OBLIGED to give/ send any photos to any agencies ...... it's not market practice..so, dun spoil it le :sweat:

Yes there is no obligation :thumbsup:

 

[render]

Big yawns! Holla all! Render back in action!
Damn, just woke up. so tired!
And i guess the zhiliang have prolly been slapped to wake up and face the reality.

Look.

If u are speaking about ridiculous craps that is irrelevant and pointless,
trying all means to ruin my reputation while i'm merely quoting facts about u,

Here goes:

1. u said there was no signing of black and white right? Yea! I totally agree with u.
So i should do that from today onwards ya? Bullshits.
Look here. Clubsnap practices credibility and reliability. And normally between the photographers, models or even myself, we trust one another.
Cuz i've been here for 2 years odd already. But where were u?
People noe me & vice versa. I do not see it necessary to practice that.
Cuz it never did happened regarding about this kinda nonsensical case of photographers trying to leech models from me. In fact I thought it would never happen.
Until you came along.
CUZ OF THE WORD TRUST i did not ask for a black and white.
And to think u AGREED that you would not leech.
WHAT HAPPENED ABOUT THE TRUST?

2. Again, Render has got render's policy.
People have got theirs.
It doesnt bother about me how people work. I love the way i work.
And yet, people still chose to work with me.
So it's really up to u whether u choose to work with me or not.
But once u have approached to work with me,
confirmed my model, made her keep herself free on a sunday and all.
It's extremely IRRESPONSIBLE to ask to cancel the shoot.
Who are u to ask a model keep herself free on that day and she had prolly declined or her other assignments just for u? Hello, as much as u are very busy,
look at the events, shows & shoots etc. who are doing them?
MODELS. They are as busy too!
And having the agreement of 50%, it's u who have agreed to it.
When I asked, how much u wanna deposit? U said, it's really up to me.
So when we both agreed,
the very next day u said the policy gonna change with no other reasons?
I'm afraid Render doesn't accept that sort of crap.

4 & 5.
Wake up please. Would anybody be so retarded to actually claim that she have yet to receive the money on the very day u transferred just because she wanna "eat: your money. But crazily, the very next day she would admit that she have already received the money?
This must be the best joke I've ever seen. Look again,
U transferred to me in the midnight, I did look into my account.
And the very fact that I did not receive is a fact indeed.
I too panicked, cuz i didnt noe what happened.
And If u were doubting me,
Who noes if u were the one who did not transfer
and waited till the next day to transfer so that U could place the fault on me?
Of cuz I asked for evidence. Luckily I did received the next day. *phew*
And u noe about credibility?
I havent been told about "eating" anybody's money since 2 yrs ago. What say u?
Since u love to ask around clubsnappers. Then ask if i did


6. U noe what? If u have agreed to have the pics sent,
whether is it a paid shoot or not, it's about an agreement again.
That's really up to u whether to show that u are reliable or not.
And something I can let u know, if u were to send the pictures to the models,
they would definitely do even better as the pics would be theirs as well!
Also, they could look at their faults and try to improve on it.
So what do u lose?
U prolly gain a better model for your next shoot!

Also, why my model have agreed to exchange msn, is because she is only keen in the pictures. And if u think that she is keen in you, or keen to betray me by shooting with u directly without me, again, WAKE UP!

Please make it clear. What when u asked if u could go through her directly for shoots,
she replied in vague?

Wake up again.

This what i heard from my model personally, and it seemed like it is.
Since it did really happen.

Zhiliang: "Eh winnie can i shoot u next time and don't go through Render?"
Winnie: "huh, why lehs. Cannot la.
Must go though her. I'm her model ma. She would be angry."
Zhiliang: "Huh, dun wan la. Render very fierce lehs. And she commissions."
Winnie: "Orh, then nevermind lo, U shoot me then I pass her the commission.
I will still let her know."
Zhiliang:" Huh, see how lo.."

And the next conversation was:
Zhiliang: "Eh can you charge me cheaper for the next shoot?"

See? it is obvious that the fact that he don't wanna go through me,
Is that he don't wan me to commission, so that he can pay the model lesser.
And as seen, many clubsnappers have agreed that commissioning of the model,
is between the model and the agent. It does not concern the client.
Cuz they are asked to pay an agreeable amount of sum,
then it's left up to the agent and the model already.
With your sum of money, i commissioned.
But i still provided u with a perfect model.
Not like as if, after i commissioned, the model is left with only a leg or a hand short?

7. The fact as seen is that u were bypassing me for another shoot
that u would be organizing with MY MODEL. Who wouldn't I be angry? Tell me? Who won't?
If i get all my models to work under me, but I allow people to leech my models THROUGH THE ASSIGNMENTS THAT I'VE GIVEN. look, why don't i be a charity organization instead?
"FREE MODELS TO TAKE"

8. Hohoho.. I was pissed, and wanted to call the MR ZHILIANG up to talk about this dispute.
But the fact that I was already extremely boiling, and that he was too guilty to answer the phone, I'm sure u noe what happened? Yea lo, volcanic mountain. hohoho.
Look, i wouldn't have been asking for the pics, if the model dint ask me to ask from u.
The pics sucks, and that is the fact. But my model still look good, and she loves it.
So whats wrong with asking for more? And it's u who asked for my opinion.
Each time u sent, u asked how is it? So it sucked. I said. Whats wrong?
If u cant take criticisms, then don't ask. As simple as that.

9. Azure models is set up, to provide u freelance models which many photographers are yearning to shoot. And the reason why I'm here is to help them to arrange a shoot with these models, with MUCH LOWER RATES.
My agency works with flexibility. Instead of going for organized group shoots, which most might not like the idea of shooting with strangers, They can now go to me for individual shoot with their FAVOURITE model or even organise a group shoot within themselves.
I'm very very sure even if u do go to other model agencies,
THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PROVIDE U WITH SUCH QUALITY MODELS WITH MY RATE.
And that's why mine is a freelance agency. AND STILL, ITS NOT SET UP WITH SO MUCH EFFORT GATHERING HOT MODELS, JUST FOR U TO LEECH THEM.

Well, I forgive him for coming up with such ridiculous crap post.
Because of his failure in english as he couldn't understand what I was explaining.
And also, Him being still asleep. I guess he never does wake up.
Even when he is shooting


I THANK ALL OF U FOR AGREEING WITH ME. :heart:

I'm off for a shoot later~ Damn, i wasted half an hour on this post.
I just woke up, and i thought my post is much better than his. MUHAHAHAHA.

 

[render]

Lalala.. i duno why my thread got moved to the consumer section.
But tadah, here's the link for u noe better

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=263354

 

[render]

Yes there is no obligation :thumbsup:

Yes i never did said it's an obligation.
But he agreed. And he wanted to send.
He could have rejected
Most photographers are nice and they do send so that models can improve on themselves!

 

[CanonUser]

this result u get when 17-18 yr old kiddies try to act as wannabe agency - got register or just play play?

people can just get 10 girlfriends together and say "im now modell agency"

so uncouth and vulgarities - lousy image for both herself and her "agency"

A nasty advice that contains explicit words that i believed should not be uttered in these dealings between clients and agency.

8. Agent turned nasty immediately and threatened me with violation of her laws which we didnt even sign. Words like F*** you were uttered immediately and it even went personal.

9. I always feel (again they are my own opinions) that no one or agent or agency can think themselves too high up, too untouchables that they can blast anyone they like.

agree, becuase they want to chee hong model thats why.

I usually dun like to read long posts..but in short, as long as it is a paid shoot, you are NOT REQUIRED/ OBLIGED to give/ send any photos to any agencies ...... it's not market practice..so, dun spoil it le :sweat:

since peggy say no obligation, then no need to give photos anymore

 

[CanonUser]

bravo. also means if before shoot never agree to give picture, after shoot no need to give.

some 'freelance' agency try to pretend that the models are contracted to them and you cannot backdoor, but actually, they tell their model that they are not exclusive or contracted to attract them to join their 'freelance' agency. two face!

Just my 2 cts worth:

1) to give or not to give the model/agency any images from the shoot is depandent on what was agreeded before the shoot. Don't matter if it was a paid shoot or not, if you agreed to pay and still give images, than it's something agreeded upon and should be done.

2) to ask model if you should go through her or the agency for jobs, is normal as some models are not contracted to the agency, so they can freelance on their own. Maybe the way it should be done is to ask if the model is contracted to the agency and under what terms to see if it may be possible to shoot the model through another agency ( lower rates? ) or just direct. But if it was already agreeded that this photographer who got to know the model through this agency can't contact her directly, before the shoot, than the photographer should not approch her directly.
If the photographer do approched her directly, he have to prove that the model is just freelancing for this agency and he got to shoot/meet the model through another agency/source and that agency/source allow him to contact this model directly. This is debatable but not uncommon in the market practise.

Just my thoughs on what is the common practise.

 

[ortega]

got face to face meet or not?
for kopi or other activities....

let me know OK
I do TFCD for both of you