PMA 2003: Nikon AF-S VR 24-120mm f/3.5-5.6G IE-ED

[Orion_Hunter]

I seen many of the post above debating abt nikon technology... Feel tt it is very subjective and well up to individual to agree or trust the technology. lol The debating make this thread seems like it is trying to convert ppl from manual or af to afs or vr and... which I feel tt it is weird because all of them are still from nikon...

 

[YSLee]

Originally posted by Knighthunter

ED/IF/VR/AFS are not gimmicks.

From the way the buzz is over an average lens with these technologies I think that it's quite the opposite.

Case in point: Canon released a 24-85 USM meant for the IX EOS (APS SLR). If you take a good look at the Nikon AF-S 24-85 and the Canon 24-85 USM they're quite similar lenses (maybe even identical), yet the Nikon has had a lot more buzz generated when it was announced. For Canon it was just "another" lens, for Nikon it was such a big deal. Why so, for such average lenses? Because the AF-S 24-85 was the first consumer grade lens with AF-S, despite it clearly a lens that's in the consumer catergory and would be expected to perform as such.

AFS is big factor for Nikon user, is a big improvement from screw driven AF. AFS definetely is a major factor in deciding lens, ED or non ED is also a major factor, IF is is the best design for AF lens since the barell not rotating or extending/retracting during AF.

I'm sorry, but I beg to differ; since when has all these become major factors in lens purchase decisions? AF-S is not needed by most of us, in fact with a skilled photographer your standard screwdriver lens is plenty enough, even for some sports. ED or no ED doesn't always mean a good or bad lens, and IF while having advantages, isn't the be all end all in AF design, especially if it introduces a ton of aberrations.

For example which one you chose Nikkor AF 28-105 or AFS 24-85 giving that you have limited budget? FYI AFS 24-85 is cheaper than AF 28-105.

28-105 without a doubt. Less distortions, better build quality, slightly better image quality, for a difference of extra $50. I'll take it.

Nikon moves to introduce AFS and VR technology to consumer grade lenses is a benefit to user, especially for ppl like me who can't always afford to get f2.8/pro lenses.

What in the world does AF-S and VR have to do with f/2.8 lenses? I don't see the connection.

You can always depend to the 3rd party review when buying lens but at the end you will stuck with what you can afford.

And for what one can afford there're many good options out there. Don't forget the 3rd party lenses as well.

 

[YSLee]

Originally posted by Avatar

Though many said it may not be good, nobody can ascertain anything out of these numbers. Well, who knows that this may be a darkhorse that can ultimately be a good choice for serious amateurs, just like the earlier AF-S 24-85?

Firstly I don't see any numbers, so I'm not sure what you're refering to. Secondly the 24-85 isn't what I'd call a good choice.. a decent choice, perhaps, but it isn't a stellar lens to begin with.

My take is, tt doesn't have to have stellar performance like the professional level AF-S 28-70, what it need is to be a good performer priced correctly to intercept the market. It seems to me that Nikon is finally waking up to its idea after a long sleep.

That's right, so we have wonderful consumer optics like the Nikkor 28-105/3.5-4.5. Or the older 28-85/3.5-4.5. Or if you're willing to spend more there's the 24-85/2.8-4 (which has a mixed reputation; I never got down to trying this lens).

As for the AF-S or VR tag, well, to me, they are proven technologies that works to provide swift AF and reliable handheld operation, something that is missing from the Nikon cohort for far too long, IMHO that is.

Once again, AF-S and VR are moot if you cannot get your basic techniques right.

Don't get me wrong, I know that these are not sure signs of a good lens but they are surely positive strides in the right directionfor Nikon, as a company, in time to come. With improved sales and more money for R&D, I reckon there will be even more implementations for even better lenses in the future, ain't it?

You're moving away from the subject; the original discussion stemmed from my remark on it being an unspectacular lens, not on whether it'll be good news for Nikon's camera division's financial statement.

While some old time Nikon users may not feel it, one can see that Canon is leeching away quite a lot of market share from it just because they are able to provide USM and IS in many of their consumer grade lenses. I seen and use a handful of these, they are not excellent lenses IMO but in a way, they do sometimes feel more "worth-the-moola", this is something that may be of utmost importance to a first time buyer of either system. For me, I choose Nikon because I like their optics and system ergonomics better, but I cannot say the same for all.

It might feel value for money, in terms of overall features, but overall if optical quality isn't good, then what's the point? You're basically advocating that one should spend more on gimmicks then optical quality? Maybe for the average consumer yes, but then I don't think this forum's target group is them. If it's targeting the average consumer, then I wonder why the large proportion of the population here are touting L lenses, f/2.8 zooms, Leicas and what not. For a serious amatuer, it would be more worth to buy the best lens optically and make up for other deficiencies via improving his technique. That after all is the whole point of learning photography, to understand and improve on techniques used in photography.

 

[YSLee]

Originally posted by Knighthunter

I understand that you will choose the ol' trusty AF 28-105, in my case I still suck up to AFS/VR/ED. Those AFS/VR/ED are not marketing insignia to a technical guy like my, I believe the technology behind it.

Technology will not compensate for inadequte technique. No matter what. However superior technique can be limited by optical quality. And as for marketing, case in point: The Nikon 70-300 ED vs the no ED 70-210/4 between 70 and 210mm. The 70-210/4 is the better lens. In fact it's so good I used a borrowed one in lieu of getting my 80-200/2.8.

Anyway, I will follow the advancement in tech and design. At the end what is important is the marketing and innovation in technology for a company to thrive in the today's market.

Like I've said above, it might be good for the company, but it does yourself as a photographer little good by continually chasing technologies.

 

[Knighthunter]

I am not trying to say that AFS 24-120 VR will be a stellar performance, I just want to point out FACTS:
1. AFS is speed is faster than screw driven AF.
2. VR will allow 3stops slower speed than 1/focal length. The analogy is at f5.6 with 3 stops slower is similar to shoot at f2.8 with faster speed handheld. The trade off is the slower speed will be a disadvantage for action shoots.
3. ED glass is better than normal glass due to low dispersion property.
Those point facts are technology not gimmick!

I knew someone in CS upgrade from AIS to AFS, if AIS still can serve him better why bother upgrade to AFS and spend more money. Technology also a selling point and of course ease of use.

If person want the best optics then go for pro classes f2.8 lenses, no need argument about it. The consumer lenses always have to compromise due to its price.

Frankly speaking, and no offense, but if you are as you said: " believe the technology behind it", why didn't you buy into Canon in the beginning?

I was a Canon user user for about 4 years, I sold all my gears due personnal problem 2 years ago. Late last year I start my photography again with Nikon, without any particular reason just want to venturing new equipment. I had bigger Canon gears last time compared to my current Nikon gears.
I am not earning money from photography, I just use my pocket money to have some fun.

 

[Sin]

Originally posted by Knighthunter
I am not trying to say that AFS 24-120 VR will be a stellar performance, I just want to point out FACTS:
1. AFS is speed is faster than screw driven AF.
2. VR will allow 3stops slower speed than 1/focal length. The analogy is at f5.6 with 3 stops slower is similar to shoot at f2.8 with faster speed handheld. The trade off is the slower speed will be a disadvantage for action shoots.
3. ED glass is better than normal glass due to low dispersion property.
Those point facts are technology not gimmick!

I also not dissing the technology. In fact, if the technology makes things better all the much better.
But don't be blinded by the technology that you dont see the lens for what it is, a whole lens. Consumer lenses also got good ones and poor ones. specific technology no make it good if it really a "terok" one...

I dont think we're dissing any of Nikon's technology here. I'm a Nikon user too and I'd love to see those techs on my lenses. But I wont buy a lens if it's poor performance, regardless what tech is on it. So let's wait for the lens is see how it performs for its price.

Originally posted by Knighthunter
I was a Canon user user for about 4 years, I sold all my gears due personnal problem 2 years ago. Late last year I start my photography again with Nikon, without any particular reason just want to venturing new equipment. I had bigger Canon gears last time compared to my current Nikon gears.
I am not earning money from photography, I just use my pocket money to have some fun.

(NO sarcasm, ill malice whatsoever) Then I think you got into the wrong brand without doing the right research. With your outlook and/or thinking in terms of your photography hobby, Canon would have been better for you...
:dunno:

 

[ckiang]

Originally posted by Knighthunter
I am not trying to say that AFS 24-120 VR will be a stellar performance, I just want to point out FACTS:
1. AFS is speed is faster than screw driven AF.
2. VR will allow 3stops slower speed than 1/focal length. The analogy is at f5.6 with 3 stops slower is similar to shoot at f2.8 with faster speed handheld. The trade off is the slower speed will be a disadvantage for action shoots.
3. ED glass is better than normal glass due to low dispersion property.
Those point facts are technology not gimmick!

I knew someone in CS upgrade from AIS to AFS, if AIS still can serve him better why bother upgrade to AFS and spend more money. Technology also a selling point and of course ease of use.

If person want the best optics then go for pro classes f2.8 lenses, no need argument about it. The consumer lenses always have to compromise due to its price.

Technology when used properly is beneficial, otherwise it's not. The pro people upgrade from AI-S to AF to AF-S because it helps them get the job done in a better way, not because it will make their output better. If you are already very good with AI-S, then AF-S will give you a bit more edge. If you can't even hold a lens properly, then no AF-S, VR, ED, IF, DO, USM, is going to help. And putting technology onto a piece of mediocre lens isn't helping much. It's just like putting a $20k car radio into a cheap car, it ain't going to drive better. Or putting a $20k speaker system at the end of a mini compo. It ain't going to sound better.

Best optics doesn't necessarily come from the pro f/2.8 zooms. The primes give the best optical quality. Most of Nikon's prime lenses below 105mm doesn't even have the ED, VR and AF-S nomemclature on it. Yet they are the best optically.

Consumer zooms don't necessarily have to compromise in quality. The no-frills 28-105 f/3.5-4.5, 28-85 f/3.5-4.5 are both very very good performers. In fact the older 28-85 is supposedly even better optically.

Even for the pro zooms. AF-S is not necessarily better. The old AF 20-35/2.8 is optically better than the newer, more expensive AF-S 17-35/2.8 ED-IF. And the comparitively cheaper AF 35-70/2.8 is no slouch compared to the AF-S 28-70/2.8ED-IF either.

Don't lust after technology. Work on your technique, and you can get good pictures even without all those frills.

Regards
CK

 

[taker]

Originally posted by xmen1977


Arrghhh...
Y the nikon package always comes wi lens hood, hah?
:cry:


Lens contents:
AFS 24-85 IF ED - wi lens hood
AFS 12-24IF ED- wi lens hood
AFS 24-120 IF ED - wi lens hood
AF 28-200 ED - wi lens hood again !

Better to have lenshood then not. If u have too many, can spare me 1? I don't mind collecting them. ;p :bsmilie:

 

[Knighthunter]

Originally posted by Sin
(NO sarcasm, ill malice whatsoever) Then I think you got into the wrong brand without doing the right research. With your outlook and/or thinking in terms of your photography hobby, Canon would have been better for you...
:dunno:

What is this means? :angry:
Check your PM!

 

[Larry]

guys guys guys... relax

this is a discussion about the new VR-G lenses that Nikon is announcing at PMA. let's not get drawn (again) into another heated discussion about which lenses or technologies is crap or not. all lenses have their own target markets and user segments, so let the users and buyers make up their own minds. if it suits them, then why not. if it doesn't, then move along...

not targetting at any1, but i'd just hate to see an interesting Nikon discussion thread degenerate into flame-bait.

 

[Tupi Guy]

Originally posted by Larry
guys guys guys... relax

this is a discussion about the new VR-G lenses that Nikon is announcing at PMA. let's not get drawn (again) into another heated discussion about which lenses or technologies is crap or not. all lenses have their own target markets and user segments, so let the users and buyers make up their own minds. if it suits them, then why not. if it doesn't, then move along...

not targetting at any1, but i'd just hate to see an interesting Nikon discussion thread degenerate into flame-bait.

Totally Agree with you.

As for me, I'm a newbie and i always come in here to pick up some knowledge

and pls dun fight over tis and oso make me confuse.....:embrass:

 

[james m]

Originally posted by Orion_Hunter
Sianz haha F75 has vertical shutter release whereas F80 does not have... kinda irritate me a little... but can live without it. :bsmilie:

That would be nice on the F80/MB-16

So with the F75 having a shutter release on the battery pack, infra-red remote, 25 segment 3D metering and automatic pop up speedlight in low light.

Are Nikon planning a replacemnt for the F80?

 

[Sin]

Originally posted by Knighthunter


What is this means? :angry:
Check your PM!

Why this always happen to me? :dunno:

innocent remarks and then everyone say I lambast them....

One of the reason I don't like to post on this forum. People bery sensitive (not pointing to anyone, ok?). Next time don't dare to post anything unless I know the person personally liao....

 

[Avatar]

I agree with Larry. My intention is to let everyone know what I had read, it is not a post to say AF-S or VR lenses are the almighty ones. This lens may not be the cup of tea for all but in some way, it may be a decent choice as a startup lens for would be/amateur SLR photographers.

Ckiang: I agree with your POV. That said, I certainly hope they can introduce more lenses with these features in the future, especially for the legendary ones in the Nikon stable. As I had stated earlier , they are moving forward as a company that needs to stay in shape to survive the competition, and not one that still think they are best of them all. To me, I still think Nikon is a better choice for my photographic jobs, not merely because of brandname but rather, its expertise in photographic equipments.

Sin: Glad you agree, yup, I do not mean to say it is going to be the best, just that I am asking everyone to give it a chance to prove itself in the field before we pass our judgements.

 

[Larry]

Originally posted by Sin
Next time don't dare to post anything unless I know the person personally liao....

then come SEED lah... put a face to the name!!!

 

[Avatar]

Originally posted by Sin
Why this always happen to me? :dunno:

innocent remarks and then everyone say I lambast them....

One of the reason I don't like to post on this forum. People bery sensitive (not pointing to anyone, ok?). Next time don't dare to post anything unless I know the person personally liao....

Sin, please don't feel this way. The beauty of these forums is that you are entitled to your own point of view, if there are solid facts behind your opinions, you need not fear anything.

Hey, at least I don't feel that you are "lambasting" me, IMO, you made some good points with your POV but I can't say the same towards someone else here who is still arguing for the sake of arguing (*not you, Knight or Ckiang, etc). It is quite obvious actually ... *sighz* and has always like this regardless of where I go, not that I care but well, I think it is a complete waste of time answering to such "replies" from such personalities.

Cheers!

 

[Sin]

Originally posted by Larry
then come SEED lah... put a face to the name!!!

I was there even before you knew about this forum
(Just tongue-in-cheek OK? Nowadays must qualify every statement I make...very tedious leh)

 

[binbeto]

I am following this thread for quite a while.

Quite informative... Just two group of people who strongly stand to what they belive.

I am not sure if I am allow to give my conclusion on this saga.

But, here it goes,

Those looking for Pro lens are disappointed that there is not much new lens in the pro section.

Those working on a tight budgetare glad that Nikon have put some newer technology on consumer lens, letting them have a chance to make use of this technology.

Those looking for the present DSLR to drop price is disappointed becos no new DSLR is announced yet. Thus, older model price won't defer much. (Pray fro Canon to come out a cheap one and give nikon some pressure)

Just remember, at the end of the day, it is just the picture that matters, not the equipment.

P.s. Personal attack to a photographer's work and equipments can be dangerous. All artists stronly belive in himself. Else, he won't even bother practising that art.

 

[Larry]

Originally posted by Sin
I was there even before you knew about this forum

oops just noticed your join date. :embrass:

then must come more often mah... i treat you lim kopi and talk Nikon (my fave subject) ok?

 

[Sin]

Originally posted by Larry
oops just noticed your join date. :embrass:

then must come more often mah... i treat you lim kopi and talk Nikon (my fave subject) ok?

BTW: remember DnD back in Secondary School?