LFC II - You'll never Walk Alone

[MichaelLee]

Morientes is probably one of the most cunning strikers in game at the moment. He's also a very big game player that can be relied on to score the crucial goals. Remember his performances for Monaco? It's a pity he was cup-tied last season else I think Liverpool would have done better in the Euro tourney

why just mention his performance with Monaco ? WHy not also mention his performance with Real ? But the most important was that what his performace since joining LFC ?

If his performance with Monaco is good, I am sure Rush performance with Liverpool is even better. But why not we ask Rush to play for us ?

Every player has their prime times....I am afraid that Morientes prime time had gone and his class had started to drop...

 

[nemesis32]

remember what did I say..many times liao...

If u want to screw up a team..appoint Souness as your manager.

Dalglish pass onto Souness...the darkiest day of Liverpool under Souness.

Sir Robson pass onto Souness..(newcastle finish 3th and then 5th of the last 2 previous season)...then Souness is capable to finish Newcastle at 15th ..or was it 16th last season ?

I won't blame their last season's performance squarely on Souness lah... When Sir Bobby left, they are already struggling.

Also, who would expect Bellamy to kick up a fuss and got sent to Celtic and for Bowyer and Dyer to fight on pitch..

Judge him at end of this season and see how they fare.

However, like what kahheng mentioned, Newcastle is kinda overrated... they are good but at most can finish 5th... so Sir Bobby did reasonably well...give the players he had.. but i feel he started the Youth movement too soon and did not give Shearer a final chance...

 

[nemesis32]

why just mention his performance with Monaco ? WHy not also mention his performance with Real ? But the most important was that what his performace since joining LFC ?

If his performance with Monaco is good, I am sure Rush performance with Liverpool is even better. But why not we ask Rush to play for us ?

Every player has their prime times....I am afraid that Morientes prime time had gone and his class had started to drop...

His performance at REAL is actually very good... it's only after the arrival of Ronaldo that he did not get to play esp since RAUL is considered untouchable...

I think he's prob passed his prime as well... but you neevr know since his best season is only 1 year ago at Monaco...

 

[MichaelLee]

dunno about a more recent assist from Morientes, but Stevie G's first goal against TNS at Anfield was because of a lovely lay-off from Nando right inthe penalty box for Stevie to blast in past the keeper.

he did noy touch the ball, rite ? so not counted as assist in goal .

ok..fine..even if it is counted.. it is supposed a 7m striker can and should be doing.

That alone could not justify him as a good Liverpool player.

Did u read I quoted here a link from thetimesonline 2-3 weeks ago ? .....a football journal analyst rated every single performance in that match.

Morientes had the lowest score among all. Miss lot of chances..and did not look sharp at all.

if that goal..(he did not even touch a ball) is sufficient to justify him a good player..then the world would have also rated heskey a superb striker...didn't u see him sprint pass 2 defenders and score against Bayer Munich in the Super Cup ??

 

[afbug]

I won't blame their last season's performance squarely on Souness lah... When Sir Bobby left, they are already struggling.

Also, who would expect Bellamy to kick up a fuss and got sent to Celtic and for Bowyer and Dyer to fight on pitch..

Judge him at end of this season and see how they fare.

However, like what kahheng mentioned, Newcastle is kinda overrated... they are good but at most can finish 5th... so Sir Bobby did reasonably well...give the players he had.. but i feel he started the Youth movement too soon and did not give Shearer a final chance...

Disagree. Sourness is one of the worst manager in EPL. He almost got Blackburn down. Lucky they save themselves by sacking him. He got lousy man management skills. Shearer should have retired a season ago. He has too much influence in the team and squad selection.

Newcastle under Sir Bobby is a CL spot contender. Look where Sourness got them into although its his 1st season in charge. Newcastle is not a overrated team. They've got a huge fan base and support. Plus a magnificent stadium.

 

[zhapchit]

Don't forget that Nando only joined us in Jan. Lacking match practice, in between there were breaks for International competitions and friendlies. Then there was Euro competitions which he couldnt play because he was cup tied. And also he is playing in a new league, new environment. Is he past his prime?

 

[MichaelLee]

Also, who would expect Bellamy to kick up a fuss and got sent to Celtic and for Bowyer and Dyer to fight on pitch..

When Robson in charge..Bellamy did not really kick up a fus...indeed he did kick in many goals.

When Robson in charge, Bowyer did not fight with Dyer.

So..u are the manager..u are paid to manage people and achieve performance.

If u are fail..not your fault ?

Wah...I want that kinda job ley.....I dun mind being paid peanuts of 600,000 a year..

 

[MichaelLee]

His performance at REAL is actually very good... it's only after the arrival of Ronaldo that he did not get to play esp since RAUL is considered untouchable...

I think he's prob passed his prime as well... but you neevr know since his best season is only 1 year ago at Monaco...

i know he had very good days with Real and Monaco. But that dun add up on LFC at all.

Shall not we we look at how much he had done for us ??


he is already 28 liao. Seldom player get improve after 28. Either u are maintaing your form or u start to drop.

if current form is the best he can give us..I could not imagine what he could do for us in the next 2 years.

To judge a striker..it is simple. Either u score and u assist on goal.

U can be smart, cunning, handsome looking, help to boost the sales of JC....that is not the purpose we buy a striker, rite ?

 

[MichaelLee]

Disagree. Sourness is one of the worst manager in EPL. He almost got Blackburn down. Lucky they save themselves by sacking him. He got lousy man management skills. Shearer should have retired a season ago. He has too much influence in the team and squad selection.

Newcastle under Sir Bobby is a CL spot contender. Look where Sourness got them into although its his 1st season in charge. Newcastle is not a overrated team. They've got a huge fan base and support. Plus a magnificent stadium.

sack Fergi and appoint Souness. MU will be damn scary man..Imagine Keane fight with Rooney....wah sai...I want to buy ticket to see the match at Old trafford.

 

[nemesis32]

Disagree. Sourness is one of the worst manager in EPL. He almost got Blackburn down. Lucky they save themselves by sacking him. He got lousy man management skills. Shearer should have retired a season ago. He has too much influence in the team and squad selection.

Newcastle under Sir Bobby is a CL spot contender. Look where Sourness got them into although its his 1st season in charge. Newcastle is not a overrated team. They've got a huge fan base and support. Plus a magnificent stadium.

I know what you mean....

I say Newcastle was overrated becos the team is overrated. I know they have a huge supporter base and a great stadium.. but that does mean it gives them a birth right to be one of the top team.... look at sunderland, their fierce rival, they also suffered because the team isn't good enough but they have a great stadium in STadium of Light.

As for Souness, as i say, i wouldn't judge him on last season, wait till this season started.. We have to be fair. Just like i do not like to judge Rafa on last season esp in EPL, as consistency is needed. For cup matches, yes, you can pull an upset or surprise along the way etc but difficult for league as everyone knows each other so well...

 

[nemesis32]

i know he had very good days with Real and Monaco. But that dun add up on LFC at all.

Shall not we we look at how much he had done for us ??


he is already 28 liao. Seldom player get improve after 28. Either u are maintaing your form or u start to drop.

if current form is the best he can give us..I could not imagine what he could do for us in the next 2 years.

To judge a striker..it is simple. Either u score and u assist on goal.

U can be smart, cunning, handsome looking, help to boost the sales of JC....that is not the purpose we buy a striker, rite ?

Shearer prob only hitting his prime after he's about 28... i think he won his first england cap when he was 27? So it's possibly but i agreed, unlikely.

If he can reproduce his form at REAL/Monaco, it's good enough for me..

 

[kahheng]

why just mention his performance with Monaco ? WHy not also mention his performance with Real ? But the most important was that what his performace since joining LFC ?

If his performance with Monaco is good, I am sure Rush performance with Liverpool is even better. But why not we ask Rush to play for us ?

Every player has their prime times....I am afraid that Morientes prime time had gone and his class had started to drop...

It's certainly true that every player has his prime (er but then there's the odd example of Teddy Sheringham who had seemed to get better with age ;-)), but I think with Morientes, he isn't a high scoring striker like the Ian Rush type. I think if Morientes can get 20 goals a season in all competitions, he's reached his limit. But he's the kind of striker who creates room by drawing defenders and creating space for everyone else. When he was playing for Monaco in Europe, you could see that he was very very hard to handle and makes opposing defenders work really hard. And quite importantly, he does score at the crucial moments. The other sad reality is that he may not be the type of striker that's suitable for the run here run there run everywhere Premier League.

His extensive European experience is good for his team. Personally speaking, I think if he can do well in their European games, he's already good value since the typical Premier League team has to play so many games in their own league and cups. The Intertoto, whilst crucial to Liverpool's qualification for the Champion's League, isn't a big time tournament to judge this fella's pedigree.

Anyway with the inevitable rotational system, it's good to have various styles of strikers in the team so that the manager has different options with different opponents.

 

[afbug]

I know what you mean....

I say Newcastle was overrated becos the team is overrated. I know they have a huge supporter base and a great stadium.. but that does mean it gives them a birth right to be one of the top team.... look at sunderland, their fierce rival, they also suffered because the team isn't good enough but they have a great stadium in STadium of Light.

As for Souness, as i say, i wouldn't judge him on last season, wait till this season started.. We have to be fair. Just like i do not like to judge Rafa on last season esp in EPL, as consistency is needed. For cup matches, yes, you can pull an upset or surprise along the way etc but difficult for league as everyone knows each other so well...

Overrated meh? Under Sir Bobby, they're challenging for a CL spot. The team is good enough to end up in the top 5 but ........ lets see where they end up this season. If 2 managers managed the same team and one end up 5th, the other 15th, what when wrong?

Just a thought, if Benitaz came in and Liverpool end up 15th instead of 5th in his 1st season, will you sing the same tune? :angel:

I pity the Newcastle fans. They must be seething with anger and disappointment. Freddy Shepperd screwed up big time by sacking Sir Bobby and appointing Souness. Plus, they gotta spend more $$$.

 

[XPeriment626]

Souness is a moron who messed up at Liverpool and pretty much defined the "let's break other people's legs" style of play at Blackburn (Baros, Carragher, Cisse... all got legs broken in Blackburn games). I'm not surprised Newcastle are dying now under him... he's probably the worst manager in EPL now that Glenn Hoddle is gone.

As for Morientes, his European experience and skill will be important for the defence of the trophy this season. It's almost as if there are players clearly meant to be employed in two separate teams in LFC now - the CL squad (Nando, Sissoko, Garcia, Gonzales etc) and the EPL squad (Crouch, Zenden, Hamann, etc).

People underestimate the importance of holding targetmen and deep-lying strikers. Nando's contributions cannot be measured in goals alone, otherwise you might as well sell Xabi Alonso too. His creativity and the way he ghosts in space to create options for teammates helps break down defences. Very often his unselfish play in dragging defenders wide or playing intelligent flick-ons is what leads to a goal, but the credit goes to the goalscorer instead.

And Wong Se, he DID touch the ball before Gerrard scored. That's what a lay-off is in case you don't understand my english.

 

[kahheng]

Souness is a moron who messed up at Liverpool and pretty much defined the "let's break other people's legs" style of play at Blackburn (Baros, Carragher, Cisse... all got legs broken in Blackburn games). I'm not surprised Newcastle are dying now under him... he's probably the worst manager in EPL now that Glenn Hoddle is gone.

I have to agree. Souness is crap as a manager (great as a hardman player). Same kinda manager as Mark Hughes..... (though I did like Mr Hughes very much as the classic center forward in his playing days). I think good managers need a different kind of mental finesse.

The only previous 'hard-man' that's excelled with good wits in the current game that I know of (and really I don't know too much) is Carlo Ancellotti at Milan. But then, he's a 'continental' if you know what I mean ;-) Italians tend to have more tactical nous (though it's hard to explain why their national team keeps cocking up at the WC!)

Hoddle, well, I think he'll do a lot better if he went to coach a French or Dutch team and then don't talk about his less mainstream spiritual beliefs in the press! His kind of soccer philosophy not suitable for EPL but probably better in those two leagues.

As for Morientes, his European experience and skill will be important for the defence of the trophy this season. It's almost as if there are players clearly meant to be employed in two separate teams in LFC now - the CL squad (Nando, Sissoko, Garcia, Gonzales etc) and the EPL squad (Crouch, Zenden, Hamann, etc).

Hey that's an interesting perspective.

People underestimate the importance of holding targetmen and deep-lying strikers. Nando's contributions cannot be measured in goals alone, otherwise you might as well sell Xabi Alonso too. His creativity and the way he ghosts in space to create options for teammates helps break down defences. Very often his unselfish play in dragging defenders wide or playing intelligent flick-ons is what leads to a goal, but the credit goes to the goalscorer instead.

Good points. (er, do you mean Luis Garcia when you say Xabi Alonso?)

 

[nemesis32]

Overrated meh? Under Sir Bobby, they're challenging for a CL spot. The team is good enough to end up in the top 5 but ........ lets see where they end up this season. If 2 managers managed the same team and one end up 5th, the other 15th, what when wrong?

Just a thought, if Benitaz came in and Liverpool end up 15th instead of 5th in his 1st season, will you sing the same tune? :angel:

I pity the Newcastle fans. They must be seething with anger and disappointment. Freddy Shepperd screwed up big time by sacking Sir Bobby and appointing Souness. Plus, they gotta spend more $$$.

In terms of the team that Sir Bobby have, i am sure they are top 5... They are quite a fair bit ahead of teams like Boro, Bolton and spurs... So they should finish 5th or higher (if they overachieve), hence, anything less than 5th (after Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U, hopefully finish in this order!) can be consider underachieve.

True to say if Rafa finish 15th i mightbe asking to kill him but given the injuries, i was pleasantly surprised that we did not finish any lower than 5th...So, in fact, i would rate Rafa as over achieve base on our team last season (factor in all the injuries, departures and new signings.) Of course, the biggest over achievement is in winning the CL.

 

[nemesis32]

I have to agree. Souness is crap as a manager (great as a hardman player). Same kinda manager as Mark Hughes..... (though I did like Mr Hughes very much as the classic center forward in his playing days). I think good managers need a different kind of mental finesse.

The only previous 'hard-man' that's excelled with good wits in the current game that I know of (and really I don't know too much) is Carlo Ancellotti at Milan. But then, he's a 'continental' if you know what I mean ;-) Italians tend to have more tactical nous (though it's hard to explain why their national team keeps cocking up at the WC!)

Hoddle, well, I think he'll do a lot better if he went to coach a French or Dutch team and then don't talk about his less mainstream spiritual beliefs in the press! His kind of soccer philosophy not suitable for EPL but probably better in those two leagues.



Hey that's an interesting perspective.



Good points. (er, do you mean Luis Garcia when you say Xabi Alonso?)

Yes... Souness sucks as a manager in Liverpool... As for his time at blackburn, they were no longer the side that won the premiership with the SAS (in case you guys forget, that's Shearer And Sutton), so i dun expect they to qualify for Europe anyway...

I am not trying to defend him but sometimes you gotta be fair. Judge him by his performance, with his signings, in his reign....

As for Liverpool, it is clear that Rafa knows that to succeed in both EPL and CL, he needs different team and approach. In fact, this is not new. You rem how Houllier can win the cups when we played boring defensive counter attack in Europe? It doesn't work in EPL as points or rather wins are more valuable and there are more teams that's inferior to us. You cannot clam up and expect the lousy teams like WBA to attack us and we counter them! Even if they go 1-0, they will defend like mad and the best you get maybe is a draw since all your focus is in defence and neglected the build up play.

Thats also why Arsenal and Man U tends to perform better in EPL as they are more free-scoring... Chelsea winning the EPL is considered an oddity considered how few goals they scored.. In fact, someone did point out that despite they having the most points, the impt thing is they have the most wins... more than Arsenal when they went on the undefeated run. Most impt, Chelsea win a lot of games on 1-0 when other teams go defensive.

My guess is Rafa intend to play like Arsenal or Man U when we play against most teams. When teams go defensive, Crouch will be called in to unsettle the team as we will prob win a lot of corners (which go wasted in the past... i am sure we are one of the worst team in set pieces). Then we may sneak a goal and win, ala Chelsea, when they won with a Lampard shot or a Terry header in the dying minutes..

IN Europe, we dun need to change much, obvious since we can win with our team last year. But we need to strengthen and Morientes prob need to score a few goals. The reason is now every team will be gunning for us... We will have difficulty in surprising team this season, esp in CL.

My guess is this season, we will prob finish 2nd or 3rd if lucky and maybe only reach Q or S-final in CL....A cup win may be possible.

 

[MichaelLee]

Shearer prob only hitting his prime after he's about 28... i think he won his first england cap when he was 27? So it's possibly but i agreed, unlikely.

how many player start to improve after 28..how many start to drop after 28 ??

If he can reproduce his form at REAL/Monaco, it's good enough for me..

If he can reproduce 80% of his form at REAL/Monaco, it's good enough for me. I am not that greedy.

As for Souness, as i say, i wouldn't judge him on last season, wait till this season started.. We have to be fair. Just like i do not like to judge Rafa on last season esp in EPL, as consistency is needed.

In football, performance & result is judged every season.

think with Morientes, he isn't a high scoring striker like the Ian Rush type. I think if Morientes can get 20 goals a season in all competitions, he's reached his limit. But he's the kind of striker who creates room by drawing defenders and creating space for everyone else. When he was playing for Monaco in Europe, you could see that he was very very hard to handle and makes opposing defenders work really hard. And quite importantly, he does score at the crucial moments. The other sad reality is that he may not be the type of striker that's suitable for the run here run there run everywhere Premier League.

His extensive European experience is good for his team. Personally speaking, I think if he can do well in their European games, he's already good value since the typical Premier League team has to play so many games in their own league and cups. The Intertoto, whilst crucial to Liverpool's qualification for the Champion's League, isn't a big time tournament to judge this fella's pedigree.

What u write..is all true. But only true when he was with Real and Monaco. I did not see him doing as what u described him when he is on LFC jersey.

And Wong Se, he DID touch the ball before Gerrard scored. That's what a lay-off is in case you don't understand my english.

I know what u are trying to say. I question because I am not sure it was a lay-off. I only see the highlight from the news...at blink I tot he played a dummy..did not touch the ball at all..

Ok fine...a lay off, 1 assist-on-goal. U had summed it all for me..

How many assist on goal he had produced ???

If he is a good striker for LFC (so far in the last 6 months) based on the numbers of goal scored and assist on goal......then heskey would be the world best striker liao...

People underestimate the importance of holding targetmen and deep-lying strikers. Nando's contributions cannot be measured in goals alone, otherwise you might as well sell Xabi Alonso too. His creativity and the way he ghosts in space to create options for teammates helps break down defences. Very often his unselfish play in dragging defenders wide or playing intelligent flick-ons is what leads to a goal, but the credit goes to the goalscorer instead.

Good point u had made there. As people underestimate the importance of heskey ability of holding targetmen and deep-lying strikers.

heskey's contributions cannot be measured in goals alone (even it is to be measured in goals alone, he scored 60goals for 4 years), the way he ghosts in space to create options for Owen helps break down defences. Very often his unselfish play in dragging defenders wide or playing intelligent flick-ons is what leads to a goal, but the credit goes to the goalscorer instead...

heskey had done what u had mentioned , and yet scored 60 goals 4 years or 15 goals a season.....but still a flop to many people.

Morientes who has yet to do what u had mentioned, but could not scored 15 goals a season...u tell me what shall we call him ? "Flopper" ?

 

[XPeriment626]

I totally agree about the stupid GH couter-attacking style. We always cannot beat the weak teams but can beat Arsenal, Man U etc in those days. Cos the weak teams play for a draw (which they get) whereas the strong teams try to win but often get caught out by a Liverpool fast break. Will not work anymore and we have to have an open attacking style to prise open defensive teams. To me, Chelsea's style is a bit fluke, won't be as effective this season. Arsenal (and Man U a few years ago) to me are the prime examples of classy attacking sides that are hard to stop.

And yes, we are the most useless team in terms of corners, cos our strikers are all short :bsmilie: When your top header of the ball is your centre-half you know you have a striking issue. That being said, our free-kicks have been decent (Gerrard, Alonso, Riise, Danny Murphy). I think Crouch (and Morientes with more EPL experience this season) will change the situation in terms of goals from headers.

KahHeng: Sorry for the confusion. My reference to Xabi was one-off. I meant that Nando is good at ghosting into space and playing intelligent flick-ons.

 

[nemesis32]

Gerrard and Riise not very good at corners and free kicks unless it's direct shot on goals.. Same goes for Hamann... The one with real finesse in the past is Murphy, rem how he scores curling freekicks against Man U? Alonso is pretty handy...

I still think we can improved much.. Both in terms of delivery and finishes.. not just from freekick and corners but crosses as well. I think Zenden will definitely improve things as well as Kewell, if he's fit.