Larger Format Photography
- Thread starter Shadowleong
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Shadowleong
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oh yes! Thanks for reminding me, but its just so crazily priced! For a student siao eh! My LF kit is so much cheaper! See how lo! If i use roll film backs more than 4x5 why nt just the 8800f.
LLkang, do the photographic community a service by providing scanning service.
Or open house your room for self service 4"x5" scanning.
Force Fotohub to offer self service 4"x5" scanning too, drum or CCD I don't care.
I talked to someone who do servicing/CLA, he say it is just not practical and feasible to charge $50 for a scan that takes up so much time
wootsk
Deregistered
I talked to someone who do servicing/CLA, he say it is just not practical and feasible to charge $50 for a scan that takes up so much time
I quite agree with you on this. Quite sometime ago, I have a friend who did drum scanning for me. It is raw output and we have done any profiling or PP yet, so color and image isn't really good.
http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/threads/759853-E-6-Process?p=7331954#post7331954
There are a few issue to consider.
1. If you look at the image scanned, he uses a dry mounting and the some part of the image is a bit OOF. The tape for dry mounting are not cheap. Normal tape cannot be used as the drum spin so fast that the film will come out. Higher chance for big sheet films to have slight tape loosing as compared to 135 format.
2. Wet mounting fluid is a bit pain to bring into Singapore. Uncle Roger also mentioned unless you are like the newspaper's "dedicated drum scanner mounting man" (I am surprised they have such job in the past
), you will be quite slow in wet mounting.3. Mounting Fluid cost $$$.
3. Due to file size restriction, he has issue outputing the file at 5000 dpi scan and has to do it in 4000dpi. I presume the only way for 5000dpi is by stitching. (But considering that I am using a Copal #0 lens and took this photo at around F45, the resolution of this photo isn't really that big.)
4. He is using a high end home consumer system. Anything higher will be server system using AMD opteron or Intel Zeon system already. Total estimated time taken for the whole process from mounting to output into a DVD took around 1hr 30mins++.
5. The effort to set up the system is quite tiring. Unless a non macro glass flatbed. Knowledge on setting the focusing in nm and many other knowledge is required.
6. There are more, but I think ending it here is enough. I'm a vege bird
wootsk
Deregistered
The friend who scanned for me is quite a decent helpful nice guy who is scanning to cover cost for the purchase of all his high end scanner. (Coolscan and Drum scanner arn't cheap) As such, do support him if he starts offering drum scan service (Haven't contacted him for sometime liao)
Nikkornos
Senior Member
Business cannot just look at dollars and cents with time for the short term.
I agree people doing CLA/servicing would look at $80 per job as a basis.
But if you are in the trade, often they have many work around that don't need much time at all, still they charge over $100.
Scanning is a service. Good service builds customers and relationships. Good relationships bring wealth.
Now LF scanning is a void in terms of services.
One shop supported me on MF scanning 12 years ago, when it was a service not many bothers giving, or cost a lot.
Now MF scanning is so common, and the shop still remembers me, and I get more than 50% percent discount on scans.
I goto Foto hub recently because that shop is overloaded with pro's work.
I hope as we gather more for LF, slowly we build a small community. Previously mostly worked alone or in small groups.
Once a community is recognized, I believe the supply and demand can meet. Then life will be a lot easier to shoot 4X5 slides.
I agree people doing CLA/servicing would look at $80 per job as a basis.
But if you are in the trade, often they have many work around that don't need much time at all, still they charge over $100.
Scanning is a service. Good service builds customers and relationships. Good relationships bring wealth.
Now LF scanning is a void in terms of services.
One shop supported me on MF scanning 12 years ago, when it was a service not many bothers giving, or cost a lot.
Now MF scanning is so common, and the shop still remembers me, and I get more than 50% percent discount on scans.
I goto Foto hub recently because that shop is overloaded with pro's work.
I hope as we gather more for LF, slowly we build a small community. Previously mostly worked alone or in small groups.
Once a community is recognized, I believe the supply and demand can meet. Then life will be a lot easier to shoot 4X5 slides.
TIFF output from SAFRA Nikon Coolscan 9000 @ 4000dpi is 67MB for 35mm frame. a 4x5 frame is about 15 times bigger in size. Hence 4x5 scanned at 4000dpi is about 1GB and 5000dpi is about 1.5GB on estimation.
Moreover, last time system used to have much less RAM to work on. Ain't we glad to have technology advancement? ^_^
Moreover, last time system used to have much less RAM to work on. Ain't we glad to have technology advancement? ^_^
I quite agree with you on this. Quite sometime ago, I have a friend who did drum scanning for me. It is raw output and we have done any profiling or PP yet, so color and image isn't really good.
http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/threads/759853-E-6-Process?p=7331954#post7331954
There are a few issue to consider.
1. If you look at the image scanned, he uses a dry mounting and the some part of the image is a bit OOF. The tape for dry mounting are not cheap. Normal tape cannot be used as the drum spin so fast that the film will come out. Higher chance for big sheet films to have slight tape loosing as compared to 135 format.
2. Wet mounting fluid is a bit pain to bring into Singapore. Uncle Roger also mentioned unless you are like the newspaper's "dedicated drum scanner mounting man" (I am surprised they have such job in the past
3. Mounting Fluid cost $$$.
3. Due to file size restriction, he has issue outputing the file at 5000 dpi scan and has to do it in 4000dpi. I presume the only way for 5000dpi is by stitching. (But considering that I am using a Copal #0 lens and took this photo at around F45, the resolution of this photo isn't really that big.)
4. He is using a high end home consumer system. Anything higher will be server system using AMD opteron or Intel Zeon system already. Total estimated time taken for the whole process from mounting to output into a DVD took around 1hr 30mins++.
5. The effort to set up the system is quite tiring. Unless a non macro glass flatbed. Knowledge on setting the focusing in nm and many other knowledge is required.
6. There are more, but I think ending it here is enough. I'm a vege bird
Most of the time we do not shoot a lot of 4x5 and if we shoot 100 a year, we should just scan using a V700 or highend flatbed for all 100 ($800/100 = $8 per scan).
Out of 100, maybe 2 or 3 is worth to scan using drum scan for blown up printing (say 4 by 5 feet or 1.2m x 1.5m) for display purpose. Smaller prints does not really warrant drum scan. Hence even if they charges $150 per scan is worth it for great output that comes maybe that 1 or 2 pieces a year.
This is my personal opinion
Out of 100, maybe 2 or 3 is worth to scan using drum scan for blown up printing (say 4 by 5 feet or 1.2m x 1.5m) for display purpose. Smaller prints does not really warrant drum scan. Hence even if they charges $150 per scan is worth it for great output that comes maybe that 1 or 2 pieces a year.
This is my personal opinion
else go to the Schmidt store at Ngee Ann City level 5. they carry the Berlebach wooden tripods. bet the price will match the rental rates there hahah
see the tripods on the left?
if you have not drop by for a look there, the published price for the bigger wooden tripods ranges from $300 to 500+
interesting showroom...it showcases things Lenspen cleaning kits, Minox bino to Mertz TV.
wootsk
Deregistered
if you have not drop by for a look there, the published price for the bigger wooden tripods ranges from $300 to 500+
I drop by liao. They are clearing wooden tripod for now, all wooden tripod going at 40% off. I am planning to get 1 after I came back from HK. Hopefully no spoiler clear the shop before I go get mine
wootsk
Deregistered
Petty bad mistake. The machine we used for it is I7 with (How much ram in your PC, Kgston?). If you want the original Tiff, I can pass you the disk for test test. Not really interested in digital archive nowadays due to the display platform.
Hummmm, you gotten me started counting. Nowdays, I am shooting around 0 - 4 sheets per week. (Brought camera out for photowalk, but never shoot, so sometime ends up with 0 exposed) Rarely do I shoot 5 or 6 sheets. Base on a year of 54 weeks, I can quite safely say that I shoot around 50 weeks. So an average of 0 to 4 is 2, I can say around 100 sheets per year.
Now the issue I am interested in is whether the value spent on a V700 is worth the difference in pricing from a much cheaper Canoscan?
Some may argue that the Canoscan cannot scan 4*5. But thinking again, you do can stitch 2 image from a scan in a few minutes time.
Some may argue that the V700 is of better spec. How much different can you find between 2 CCD flatbed with no dedicated macro glass?
Some may argue saying better software. But most in the end get better dedicated third party software in the end.
Some may say better color and other stuff. But aren't color and contrast depending on scanner profiling more than the processor?
Vege bird isn't really good, so he is having doubts like this where he thinks the few hundreds different for a underpaid and overwork employee means a big difference for a new lens, some films and chemical
Maybe, when I free to chat with uncle Roger over a few cup of tiger can discuss about this issue. Hope he doesn't shake his head over the V700 and tell me, "Haiz, I just do a darkroom printing and scan with 3 in 1 office scanner even better!":bsmilie:
bro,
I contribute some points here about stitching ( I do this process quite often )
You will get the best result if you scan both the film together ( as a single pass ) , then use photoshop software to separate them into individual files and then merge them into a single picture. By doing so, you can have the same or identical image curve profile and adjustment that applies to both the picture.
If you scan them separately , you might get 2 different sets of picture intensity, color, white balance etc.... and the after merge result might not be as ideal.
hope that helps for your analysis.
Billy
I contribute some points here about stitching ( I do this process quite often )
You will get the best result if you scan both the film together ( as a single pass ) , then use photoshop software to separate them into individual files and then merge them into a single picture. By doing so, you can have the same or identical image curve profile and adjustment that applies to both the picture.
If you scan them separately , you might get 2 different sets of picture intensity, color, white balance etc.... and the after merge result might not be as ideal.
hope that helps for your analysis.
Billy
wootsk
Deregistered
Yup, this is definite. If you open the cover after first scan is done, I think you can prepare to re scan again liao. ;p Holder can be DIY from a big piece of cupboard.
Nikkornos
Senior Member
Hmmm... this problem still exist in today's scanner? I thought it was solved many years ago.
Pneuscan right?
Also, in the older days, we used to cover the scanner with a big blanket for better results.
But that was in the 2000 era. Things might had gotten better today.
Not too sure about 4"x5" slides, but I do run 120 rolls pretty regularly.
I have the Toyo 6X9 back and would expect to run a lot of 120 as well.
If 4"x5" is ready, I suppose B&W would be more.
I know of a few other L F shooters who are non web savvy and don't go on line at all.
will explain in person when I meet you next time... else I will be writing essay here. .. haha..
wootsk
Deregistered
You reminded me that most of my post here are like essay. I guess that it is best that I post lesser or once in a blue moon here ba.
Nikkornos
Senior Member
提灯龙 晒月亮
一年又一年
吃月饼 喝好茶
一杯又一杯
拍中副 玩全副
一照胜一照
祝你和家人过一个美好的中秋
so how? Anyone want to shoot Chinese garden lantern?
Erm.. Not sure if I'm reading you correctly, but your point is that you find current scanning prices too expensive?
I would say maybe your analogy of comparing camera repair with scanning service is not very accurate. The reason why you pay so much for camera servicing is because you are paying for the technician's skill and experience. He can do it very fast, but to be good at it and to be able to learn it, is not easy. Compared to a scanning technician, the job is actually time consuming. Yes, you pay for the technician's knowledge and experience, but for most part, you are also paying for his time. So for example I charge $14/roll and each roll takes 2 hrs to scan and process; I only earn $7/hr. Not inclusive of my paid up capital, time invested in R&D and transport & meeting costs. Honestly, I could earn more in a month with a normal job that what I earned scanning for the last FY. So you could say what I charge now is the bare minimum, compared to camera technicians who charge what is their skill's worth.
This will then bring me to another point that low prices devalues your trade. Similar to how new freelance photographers lowball established photographers so I shall not explain in detail.. But like you, once upon a time, I also felt that scanning prices should be more reasonable.. or at least, for the same price, offer better quality. And that is where I am today.
I agree with you that "Good service builds customers and relationships. Good relationships bring wealth." But considering I'm already charging minimum, how to discount some more? Does that mean if I give discount, my clients will give me more films to scan? You might this what I'm saying is very short sighted, but the issue is that I don't see any potential long term benefits; hence the short term view.
18Gb. But more importantly is to have a fast disk system because opening and saving is the most time consuming. RAM only helps when you open multiple files together, like 36x 135mb TIFF files at once
Have to agree with lkkang that scanning in one pass is always better as pointed out by his reasons. But its really a matter of cost vs effort.
I was the one who help wootsk do a drum scan of his 4x5 slide.. If you all curious and wanna see, you can get the DVD from wootsk.. the file is abt 2ish Gb I think.. and as he pointed out, its dry mounted and not colour calibrated. If I am going to offer drum scanning commercially, that kind of standard, I find it hard to sell.. so I will need to bring in mounting fluid and IT8 targets for calibration.. but now no money to pay up for these items, so have to wait.. I estimate about $60 per 4x5 frame but I'm quite skeptical about the response though.. as Nikkornos and theITguy pointed out, $60 per frame is considered by hobbyists to be extremely expensive, especially so when comparing relatively to their LF equipment. Also, scan 15 frames can already buy V700 and makes it seem like a no brainer to just buy a flatbed scanner. But of course, the quality is a different story, but for most hobbyists, quality is not exactly very high up on the priority list.
Just my 2 cents
Shadowleong
New Member
Erm.. Not sure if I'm reading you correctly, but your point is that you find current scanning prices too expensive?
I would say maybe your analogy of comparing camera repair with scanning service is not very accurate. The reason why you pay so much for camera servicing is because you are paying for the technician's skill and experience. He can do it very fast, but to be good at it and to be able to learn it, is not easy. Compared to a scanning technician, the job is actually time consuming. Yes, you pay for the technician's knowledge and experience, but for most part, you are also paying for his time. So for example I charge $14/roll and each roll takes 2 hrs to scan and process; I only earn $7/hr. Not inclusive of my paid up capital, time invested in R&D and transport & meeting costs. Honestly, I could earn more in a month with a normal job that what I earned scanning for the last FY. So you could say what I charge now is the bare minimum, compared to camera technicians who charge what is their skill's worth.
This will then bring me to another point that low prices devalues your trade. Similar to how new freelance photographers lowball established photographers so I shall not explain in detail.. But like you, once upon a time, I also felt that scanning prices should be more reasonable.. or at least, for the same price, offer better quality. And that is where I am today.
I agree with you that "Good service builds customers and relationships. Good relationships bring wealth." But considering I'm already charging minimum, how to discount some more? Does that mean if I give discount, my clients will give me more films to scan? You might this what I'm saying is very short sighted, but the issue is that I don't see any potential long term benefits; hence the short term view.
18Gb. But more importantly is to have a fast disk system because opening and saving is the most time consuming. RAM only helps when you open multiple files together, like 36x 135mb TIFF files at once
Have to agree with lkkang that scanning in one pass is always better as pointed out by his reasons. But its really a matter of cost vs effort.
I was the one who help wootsk do a drum scan of his 4x5 slide.. If you all curious and wanna see, you can get the DVD from wootsk.. the file is abt 2ish Gb I think.. and as he pointed out, its dry mounted and not colour calibrated. If I am going to offer drum scanning commercially, that kind of standard, I find it hard to sell.. so I will need to bring in mounting fluid and IT8 targets for calibration.. but now no money to pay up for these items, so have to wait.. I estimate about $60 per 4x5 frame but I'm quite skeptical about the response though.. as Nikkornos and theITguy pointed out, $60 per frame is considered by hobbyists to be extremely expensive, especially so when comparing relatively to their LF equipment. Also, scan 15 frames can already buy V700 and makes it seem like a no brainer to just buy a flatbed scanner. But of course, the quality is a different story, but for most hobbyists, quality is not exactly very high up on the priority list.
Just my 2 cents
True that
For someone like me who's a student or as a hobby its quite a big deal since it directly cuts into my living expenses.
I don't know for sure but in the past LF are more or less kinda for pros who factored in the cost of scanning then, charge it tor their clients.
Most of the LF users nowadays are mostly enthusiasts (At least in singapore) As far as I've heard, LF is not really done commecially. Most clients are bargian hunters that look
Content rather than the quailty, which is kinda of why DSLR is the benchmark and giving them images from DSLR, MF, OR LF to compare would be stupid as they are already desensitized. Which is also a reason why so many people stop me in the streets just to ask why the heck am I using film. But that's another story
Most of us are pretty content with just shooting for ourselves which is why we turn to a flatbed.
We have other things to worry about such as actually getting film, processing, equipment, repair and etc that leads into scanning in the first place
I started on film so i reailsed with every step that i make into photography its an entire world. self development, printing, composition, your eye are skills to be forged and fine-tuned
over a long period of time. If you can even master self B&W development in just 135mm is a big deal in itself and its a craft (At least to me. I'll look up to anyone who can do what I can't)
Ultimatly we should just chillax, get out to make pictures and dont sweat the small stuff
To each their own and find your own way around things. Look for what fits you best and you will never look for alternatives
Nikkornos
Senior Member
Not too expensive. Its no one doing for 4"x5" color. That means I can't play my hobby.
$30/LF fotohub scan is something I don't mind paying to keep them going.
I didn't bring out the analogy of cam repair. Pls read previous posts.
I am a hobbyist. I am not interested in the photographic business and how to run it.
I have seen many succeeded and also seen a lot failed. Singapore is a very small market.
"most hobbyists, quality is not exactly very high up on the priority list." well, there are many hobbyists who are very concerned about quality.
Of course, not every customer will want a 2G scan because it is not really needed.
If you can strike a balance on quality, price (say about $15/ fast scan), I like to be your customer.
Anyway, hopefully by October we can have more gathering and discuss on scanning.
If scanning is not that easy, light box viewing is fine.
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