How much Nudity can CS accept?

[Deadpoet]

It is a MOST reasonable suggestion from those who could not do better.

:thumbsup:

I am often confronted with the statement, " ... you don't like it here .... you complain too much ... why don't you leave ..." Well, since I am not from here, yes I can.

But, right now, I am here, because of work, and I am part of this society, like it or not, I like to see it change for the better.

According to someone like streetshooter, and I quote, "I happen to enjoy living in a society where standards of decency (as broadly accepted by the majority) are upheld, amidst the clamour for liberality and "freedom". I also think that the silent majority is with me on this one, but perhaps not the vocal minority."

What is this standard? This is a arbitrary. This standary has been changing through out history. If so, does it means that our forefather did not uphold any standard of decency? I say no, because this standard does not exist, does not need to exist, rather it was created by the ruling minority to control the masses, to control thinking and expression. Streetshooter is the perfect example, he buys it lock stock and barrell ... being controlled is a good thing.

This is a very sad state of affair.

 

[+evenstar]

From ST today:

In maintaining the balance between loosening up and maintaining order, he said, 'we should bear in mind that the ultimate interest must be that of Singapore's and not just specific groups of individuals'.
----------------------------------------------

 

[Benign]

狗嘴裡不長象牙

 

[StreetShooter]

What is this standard? This is a arbitrary. This standary has been changing through out history. If so, does it means that our forefather did not uphold any standard of decency? I say no, because this standard does not exist, does not need to exist, rather it was created by the ruling minority to control the masses, to control thinking and expression. Streetshooter is the perfect example, he buys it lock stock and barrell ... being controlled is a good thing.

Indeed, the standards do change throughout history. At the moment, the standard of decency in Singapore is largely "No Nudity". Is this not obvious? It's what we've been talking about isn't it?

Is the standard arbitrary? Yes it is, depending on the time and place. I don't disagree.

Where we differ is the source of the standard. I think it is arrived at by the will of the majority, and you think it is "created by the ruling minority to control the masses, to control thinking and expression". Begging your pardon, but that seems like an unnecessarily paranoid and cynical outlook on life. I honestly don't believe my thinking is being controlled (you don't see me wearing any aluminum foil helmets). Nor do I have any trouble expressing myself, as I am doing now.

So let's see, if I happen to agree with what I think is the majority opinion, which is that nudity should not be allowed, then my mind is being controlled by the ruling minority? And if I think that nudity is not a problem, then I am thinking independently? Is clear thinking the exclusive province of liberals?

 

[photobum]

Says who? Only those who think they are arty will say that, but actually they are not.

I attended such a debate between two US universities in 2001 (I was living there then). This debate was partially organized by the Photography and Imaging Sciences Department of my college. I was just merely quoting from some of the contestants. Please don't point your gun at me.:sweat:

 

[Bobman]

I attended such a debate between two US universities in 2001 (I was living there then). This quote was merely what most of the contestants suggested. Please don't point your gun at me.:sweat:

Aiya, I din point the gun at you la. I am just asking who said so ma. As what you said liao, suggested by contestants.

 

[photobum]

anyone knows why the nude body is appreciated as an art? and how it started? just some OT questions

If you had taken art history in school before, you will know that such artistic appreciation started in Europe during the late 14th century, the period of Renaissance. Initially, only male bodies were used to present as an artform, but female bodies were included later. Paintings, drawings and sculptures began to show symmetrical resemblances of the human body.

In terms of time, prehistoric sculptures such as the Venus of Willendorf are among the oldest to show the nude female figure. Such works are generally dated to middle palaeolithic times (300,000 BCE - 30,000 BCE, approx.). The relief carvings such as the Venus of Laussel may also be mentioned. Originally deriving from a rock shelter, it is now in a museum at Bordeaux. The figure was originally carved on a block overhanging a sanctuary, and is probably Solutrian in date.

 

[photobum]

Aiya, I din point the gun at you la. I am just asking who said so ma. As what you said liao, suggested by contestants.

Oh.... good. I almost peed in my pants.

 

[Jason Ho]

I think, contrary to your assertion, we are all aware of the strong hand of the authority.

And I do not at all dispute the necessity not to run foul of the law.

But when I looked at the link you provided, regarding nudity, it appears to me that the important thing is that the images should not "calculate to titillate". Now I am more than aware of the subjective nature of this statement, and I am not at all surprised that the admin should take a conservative approach and do not allow any nudity at all.

But as what I wrote earlier, images such as those shown by digitalbuff and Bobman had been in public viewing for a while, signalling a "opening" attitude of the authorities. Yes, of course the authorities still would like to have the final say in such things.

I am not asking the admin to open the "floodgate" to allow all formss of nudity. But perhaps it might be time to review the rules, consult the MDA, and see what is reasonable, appropriate and feasible.

I do not think that there is anything to lose by asking the MDA for a updated position, even thought he links you provided might be the "latest".

Ah, let me then clarify a bit . Please understand this following response is not solely for student suggestion only.

1) The link and information is definitely of the latest. In fact, we consulted again last year and we were advised theres no change to that document.

I know people will read and focus on the point a) . But I do suggest a re-read of the whole section. The whole section information (point a-g) must be taken into consideration and not just that point a)

2) As to your suggestion on whats reasonable, appropriate or feasible, I can only say if you read the whole section and especially the last sentence, you should understand why are we reacting with such conservative approach. :bsmilie:

Of course one of the things I can do is
- Setup a moderated forum where postings are only approved AFTER we verify with MDA.
- For every posting, we can email MDA and ask for approval.
- Ask everyone for their IC and make sure we verify that before letting people view.

Can anyone imagine how much work is that? Maybe I can start charging members ?

3) Leaving images online doesnt necessarily mean opening attitude of the authorities. Please take note that I am neither saying the authorities dont have a opening attitude .

Let me quote you one example. There was a case (one of the few cases in fact) not too long ago that happened on ClubSNAP. Yes you heard me right. Its ClubSNAP. The image/picture in the related was in public viewing for a few days. Does that its ok from the authorities?

Nope. A few days after the posting, what actually happened is one of us (admins) got a call from the relevant authorities (of course its a verified call) during working hours in regard to the post on our forum. And the rest of the admin team was immediately "activated" in the midst of our work to assist the relevant authorities in providing relevant information etc. None of you can imagine how this affected us admin. All of us (admin) were like ants on a hot pan. And I wont want to go into further details.

I must say I am not asking for any sympathy here. I only want to reiterate, please spare a thought for us who gone thru so much to get ClubSNAP to where it is today. Call it comfort zone, non-risk taking or kiasi or whatever comment anyone of you may have for us, I can only say it takes years to build and establish a forum like ClubSNAP. But I am sure most of you know that it wont take that long to destroy or bring down one.

We are indeed protective of ClubSNAP because we are the legal owners of this website but everyone of you here are part of ClubSNAP too. In the process of improving CS, there are times when we will like to take lead in doing things, and there are times we just take things as it is and wait for things to happen. Whatever decision we have made in the end, please have more confidence and trust in us that whatever it is, we did it for the benefit of the majority if not for all members here.

Like that can?

 

[LittleWolf]

If you had taken art history in school before, you will know that such artistic appreciation started in Europe during the late 14th century, the period of Renaissance.

The renaissance is ... well, renaissance. It means literally "rebirth", so it's a rehash of what has been there before. One can still view naked sculptures from ancient Greece these days ...

 

[melnjes]

Deadpoet, I like the way you think you are fighting for the rights of the majority of the CS population. Why do I say "you think"? Because no one really knows at this point in time what the silent majority thinks, because they are too busy keeping silent.

There is one way to find out though.

(i) We more or less know that the CS mods/admins won't change their current stance on this issue. Judging from your past experience, a brute-force clash of opinions obviously doesn't work very well. This whole debate is pointless - I'm amazed we are still at it.

(ii) The next best thing is to provide an alternative forum. Fight the smart fight, take the fight elsewhere, where we have flowing milk and honey and all the nudity we want, plus the other issues you have previously fought for.

(iii) The silent majority will silently shift their loyalties to this new alternative forum. We will accept these refugees with open arms.

(iv) The Clubsnap admin/mods, on seeing a drastic drop in the number of postings/viewership, will learn the error of their ways and change their rules. And we will achieve our aim of changing Clubsnap (and by the transitive property, Singapore, judging by all the conspiracy theories so far) for the better.

This plan is flawless, no?

Btw, I think Bobman never intended this thread to turn out this way. :bsmilie:

 

[Bobman]

No problem Melnjes, I think it is good to clarify certain things rather than cursing/swearing when the thread MIA suddenly. If CS does not allow Nude/Naked photographs regardless of Art/Porno to be posted in here, I think we ought to respect their decisions. As what they say, they are responsible for all the postings.

But I hope hyperlinks to our photos/websites are allowed, if that's ok?

 

[Deadpoet]

Deadpoet, I like the way you think you are fighting for the rights of the majority of the CS population. Why do I say "you think"? Because no one really knows at this point in time what the silent majority thinks, because they are too busy keeping silent.
.....

melnjes, I have to apologise, you were wrong. I have harbored no illusion that CS will change their policy, and I am not fighting to get it changed. I am merely openning a dialog to discuss this issue. Without these discussion, change will never happen, but change will come slowly. If we don't talk about it now, changes will probably come when I am too old to take photographs.

The problem is still this silent majority, whether it exists or not, it does not matter. Certain people, we know who they are, will also lean on this as an excuse to curb freedom of expression.

 

[TrailsofLife]

I dun see the need for porn in CS. Nude is porn to me. its that subjective. one side of the world will think its art, the other side will just take it as porn. And I seriously dun see the need to fight to legalise nude or porn photography. Maybe I'll fight for building MRT station in my area or ban prostitution.

 

[TrailsofLife]

Some time, you have to look at both side of the world to make a decision.

Take a step back, you'll see a bigger picture and a different perspective. With an open mind, of course!

 

[student]

Of course one of the things I can do is
- Setup a moderated forum where postings are only approved AFTER we verify with MDA.
- For every posting, we can email MDA and ask for approval.
- Ask everyone for their IC and make sure we verify that before letting people view.

Can anyone imagine how much work is that? Maybe I can start charging members ?

I DO understand the constraints,and therefore my earlier post asked for a REVIEW, not a change.

Sometime last week, someone asked the authorities about setting up a website for nude photography. From what was told to me, there was not an immediate "NO!". The response was something like "Why not? But you need to regulate, etc etc". Which seems like a very positive attitude. Now I was told they are waiting for a written reply.

OF course, the difficulty is keeping the "regulation" to make sure things do not get out of hand.

And having a separate "permission" to access this section is not a bad idea, at least to make sure those who access this are adults, etc, etc.

And, if after making all due considerations from written replies from the authorities, it is deem too troublesome (time, work, etc etc) to have such a facility, I can understand. At least we tried.

 

[student]

Indeed, the standards do change throughout history. At the moment, the standard of decency in Singapore is largely "No Nudity". Is this not obvious? It's what we've been talking about isn't it?

Yes you are right. The standard is "Largely No Nudity".

But it is not "No Nudity".

The Chinese Chamber of Commerce had exhibitions on nude paintings. The Photographers gallery had exhibits on nudity. Kinokuniya is selling books by Playboy and Araki.

The authorities are clearly "opening up". But your mentality seems to remain in the dark ages. What is the harm to review the policies again with the authorities, and seek advice how hosting nude photography can be done?

If, at the end, to host such a facility without breaking the law is too much effort and strain on manpower, I can understand.

But can we first get out of the "self-imposed rigid mindset"?

 

[Jason Ho]

I DO understand the constraints,and therefore my earlier post asked for a REVIEW, not a change.

Sometime last week, someone asked the authorities about setting up a website for nude photography. From what was told to me, there was not an immediate "NO!". The response was something like "Why not? But you need to regulate, etc etc". Which seems like a very positive attitude. Now I was told they are waiting for a written reply.

OF course, the difficulty is keeping the "regulation" to make sure things do not get out of hand.

And having a separate "permission" to access this section is not a bad idea, at least to make sure those who access this are adults, etc, etc.

And, if after making all due considerations from written replies from the authorities, it is deem too troublesome (time, work, etc etc) to have such a facility, I can understand. At least we tried.

Ok I think my msg wasnt clear. CS policy is No Nudity not because Singapore is No Nudity. As I mentioned in my 1st reply before, I know of exihibition, galleries and even I know some photography societies do even have naked photo on their cover page of their magazine.

We understand the guidelines very well and we did review and discuss about these topic from time to time. We feel this is not going to be something we can manage even at this point of time.

Once again I ask for everyone understanding in this. We admins are definitely not living in caves lah. We struggle alot in terms of managing expectations from all sides. But in the end, please do remember we are also one of the passionate members of this photographry community .

 

[Jason Ho]

O by the way, I am not stopping the discussions on the merits and demerits on this topic.

And I am also definitely not stopping people from suggesting how we can make things easier to explore this area even though we admins have decided (at this point in time) of the No Nudity on CS.

Can right?

 

[melnjes]

The problem is still this silent majority, whether it exists or not, it does not matter. Certain people, we know who they are, will also lean on this as an excuse to curb freedom of expression.

For me, I think what the silent majority thinks does matter. It may not be at the point of proposing or instituting change (we all know people tend to be resistant to change - it's a fact of life), but if at the end of the exercise, people can say "Hey, I actually think it was good that someone started this going. The change came - it was tough, but we came out the better for it.", then it is worth it.

On the other hand, the response could also either be that of indifference, or "No, it was a mistake to have gone down this path". An example of the third will be the European Union constitution. So much money and effort spent, so many changes, so much publicity from the leaders expounding the virtues of integration, yet the constitution is in a state of crisis. The European leaders pushed for change but the silent majority in some member countries stated their stand and gave a vote of no-confidence. The European leaders were the vocal minority, yet they thought they represented the silent majority.

I don't think CS will enter a state of crisis whether nudity is allowed or is not allowed. Most likely, the response will be that of indifference. "What's the big deal?" All the effort for the CS admin/mods and just to please a small vocal minority? The tyranny of the vocal minority, the tyranny of the silent majority, all are the same, just viewed from different sides of the coin. I don't think you really mean that you want to see change before you grow too old to take photography. That sounds very individualistic. It wouldn't be right forcing change for a majority if they are not ready for it right?

For me, I'm just glad that at one point of time a number of years back, a "vocal minority" had the courage to step out to create a forum where photography buffs could share their views and their pictures. They instituted change and now people can look back at Clubsnap's history and say "Well and good, I'm glad that someone started this going. We came out the better for it." They have their stand on some matters, but it is clear the majority agree with them most of the time on most of the matters. We don't express our appreciation for the Clubsnap admins/mods often enough.

If not, IF, IF we think we can do better, well, someone just needs to lead the second exodus and people will follow.