How much Nudity can CS accept?

[doug3fflux]

At the end of the day, art or not art, is a very subjective thing. I said everything goes. What is art to me may be trash to you. Why should we care what you like ans what you like to post?

I do not believe this will ever change in Singapore. The people is very complacent, there is no tradition to fight for your rights, nor the spirits to do so. Sad.

sorry i dont get this but, what will never change?

 

[jsbn]

sorry i dont get this but, what will never change?

Mindset, traditions and of cos the famous tagline of ppl who regard Nudes as Pornography, "No Sex Please, We are Asians/Singaporeans."

I guess dats wad deadpoet's trying to put across.

 

[doug3fflux]

thanks for the reply, jsbn
what I feel is this. the artsy scene, in particular, nudity, cannot flourish in a place where origin spells A-S-I-A-N.

and I wouldnt advocate it to.
I'd rather let America just buy us over. its not as if westernization is not big enough an influence. its an overkill we live by day in day out already!

besides, Singapore has MUCH at risk. its nice and comfy, and to an extent, like DP said, the people are complacent.
but I believe it will change. we might just not live to see it.

 

[jsbn]

thanks for the reply, jsbn
what I feel is this. the artsy scene, in particular, nudity, cannot flourish in a place where origin spells A-S-I-A-N.

and I wouldnt advocate it to.
I'd rather let America just buy us over. its not as if westernization is not big enough an influence. its an overkill we live by day in day out already!

besides, Singapore has MUCH at risk. its nice and comfy, and to an extent, like DP said, the people are complacent.
but I believe it will change. we might just not live to see it.

Hmm... Actually I dun really think so.

Creativity, arts, culture. Some of which involves from 'clean' nude paintings, right down to the Adult Entertainment business and stuff like dat had evolved and flourished in places like Indonesia, Japan, etc. And not only in the United States.

I guess its not very much abt the A-S-I-A-N thing, but more oft how much society is willing to accept such things.

Well things will change, regardless of how complacent ppl are. Its like a moving wheel. MDA, ClubSNAP or what. Come one day, such things will change. When the change comes, it all depends on whether the ppl would want to accept the change. Watched the movie Pleasantville? Its something like that.

Personally not all changes are good but when it comes, not even the most powerful being on earth can stop that even with their riches or power they wield.

Things that were considered 'decadent' in the past, of breakdancing, tattoos, nudity, social disobedience (white elephants anyone?), long hair, casinos... If u guys are old enuff u would have known that these would be impossible in the past and clamped down before there is a spark. What now? Things had changed so much nw.

Perhaps changes may seem slow, but I guess things will eventually come. A matter of 'soon or later'.

 

[GitS]

thanks for the reply, jsbn
what I feel is this. the artsy scene, in particular, nudity, cannot flourish in a place where origin spells A-S-I-A-N.

which is what the regional governments would have you believe. this myth continues to be perpetuated in the ongoing western=degenerate, asian=confucian paradigm. the aspect of sexuality in our Asian societies has been very developed since the days of antiquity. lets not forget the days of the one thousand concubines in China and that the evil/loose white man did not bring the kama sutra to the world....sure, the "evil white man" brought enough opium, smallpox, influenza, slavery and firearms to decimate several societies in history but we in the "less develeoped world" could hump as well as any of them since the dawn of civilization......

 

[student]

The issue is definitely not because of ClubSNAP admin for sure. Unknown to alot of people, all SG based internet website content are subjected to MDA (Media Development Authority in Singapore) guidelines.

The guidelines and regulations can be found over at

http://www.mda.gov.sg/wms.www/devnpolicies.aspx?sid=161

And if you look into this Internet Code of Practice.

http://www.mda.gov.sg/wms.file/mobj/mobj.497.internet_code.pdf

it has a section on Prohibited Material

I am sure there will be people who will dispute, argue, whats right and wrong. But like what I said in the other thread, we arent here to argue nor I am in the position to argue whats the borderline/grey area.

Of course nothing is impossible. Theres Neptune and exhibition places. Another good example is Movies. But I am sure you wont see a 9-10 years old kid going into a Nudity movie show w/o getting stopped. Also I am very sure (at this moment of time) that you wont see a nude/naked/whatever-definition photo (with whatever people call 2 or 3 dots) on newspapers/tv.

I can start asking every one of our 20,000 members to submit a copy of their ICs and ClubSNAP has done our due diligence in terms of ensuring our members are the right audience.

Or I can start creating private galleries where only certain people can visit? Or I should create 2 usergroups where one is above 18 and one is below 18 (or whatever the permissible age)? Maybe CS should write in to MDA for permission?

Also I mentioned this is a Singapore based website, we have members of different races, genders and of different cultural backgrounds. Have anyone spare a good thought for say, our female members or minors or even male members of different acceptance level ?

And factoring all those things into consideration, I can only say this. We started this website out of passion and interest. We (admins) knows the difference between art and porn. But can we be sure everyone is of the same wavelength? No. Can we ensure whats acceptable and not acceptable to everyone? We can only guess.

We CS admin always have to look at things from all angles. Its not so much of covering ourselves but also we do always consider for members too. The last thing we want is CS or CS members being monitored/reviewed by the relevant authorities for whatever reason that we can help to prevent and yet we didnt do our due diligence. Yes I know there are people who may say "hey we are grown ups", "let us decide our own fate", etc. I can only say to those people who have that kind of thought, please do spare a thought for other members who are also reading this forum and last but not least a good thought for us - CS admins who own this website and have legal responsibility on whatever content on our website content. I certainly hope this is not too much of a request.

Like what I said in the other thread, I am not here to argue nor I am in the position to argue whats the border/grey line. I can only say this, the very day MDA allows Naked/Nudity photos or pictures on Singapore based websites with no disputable grey areas, ClubSNAP will be one of the 1st to open up for such postings.

Like that can?

PS : I hope no1 thinks or believes CS admin is so kiasi/naive to such extent that we only see the word Nudity in the guideline , we stop all Nudity postings w/o thinking further or give more thoughts on it. :bsmilie:

I think, contrary to your assertion, we are all aware of the strong hand of the authority.

And I do not at all dispute the necessity not to run foul of the law.

But when I looked at the link you provided, regarding nudity, it appears to me that the important thing is that the images should not "calculate to titillate". Now I am more than aware of the subjective nature of this statement, and I am not at all surprised that the admin should take a conservative approach and do not allow any nudity at all.

But as what I wrote earlier, images such as those shown by digitalbuff and Bobman had been in public viewing for a while, signalling a "opening" attitude of the authorities. Yes, of course the authorities still would like to have the final say in such things.

I am not asking the admin to open the "floodgate" to allow all formss of nudity. But perhaps it might be time to review the rules, consult the MDA, and see what is reasonable, appropriate and feasible.

I do not think that there is anything to lose by asking the MDA for a updated position, even thought he links you provided might be the "latest".

 

[StreetShooter]

I happen to enjoy living in a society where standards of decency (as broadly accepted by the majority) are upheld, amidst the clamour for liberality and "freedom". I also think that the silent majority is with me on this one, but perhaps not the vocal minority. Of course, obscene material (and I am not equating this with nudity, but the dividing line is often very tenuous) is easily accessible (this is a fact), but that's different from it being socially acceptable. I enjoy the freedom of myself and especially my children not being exposed to obscene material unless we choose to be.

Let me spell it out in no uncertain terms. Seeing a nude picture more often than not arouses lust (whether it was an artistic nude or pornography). For someone like me who would rather not be exposed to such temptation to lustful thoughts, it is a good thing that nude pictures are not openly accepted in society as a norm. No, it may or may not increase the incidence of rape or unwanted pregnancies and the like, but it does make life a little easier for those members of society who wish to keep their minds free of lustful thoughts. As I pointed out earlier, for those not of such persuasion, it is still easily accessible, so why the constant crying out for freedom of expression, which ironically infringes upon the freedom of the silent majority, as I have pointed out earlier.

Singapore is not a closed society. Anyone who wishes to can leave and is not forced to stay. But it is not democratic, you say. There is no freedom of expression. Then how come I keep hearing these things being said and written? If there is truly no freedom of expression, I would not have to bear with bleeding heart liberals (PM's words, not mine) whining all the time.

 

[melnjes]

Streetshooter, well said :thumbsup:

 

[Deadpoet]

I happen to enjoy living in a society where standards of decency (as broadly accepted by the majority) are upheld, amidst the clamour for liberality and "freedom". I also think that the silent majority is with me on this one, but perhaps not the vocal minority. Of course, obscene material (and I am not equating this with nudity, but the dividing line is often very tenuous) is easily accessible (this is a fact), but that's different from it being socially acceptable. I enjoy the freedom of myself and especially my children not being exposed to obscene material unless we choose to be.

Let me spell it out in no uncertain terms. Seeing a nude picture more often than not arouses lust (whether it was an artistic nude or pornography). For someone like me who would rather not be exposed to such temptation to lustful thoughts, it is a good thing that nude pictures are not openly accepted in society as a norm. No, it may or may not increase the incidence of rape or unwanted pregnancies and the like, but it does make life a little easier for those members of society who wish to keep their minds free of lustful thoughts. As I pointed out earlier, for those not of such persuasion, it is still easily accessible, so why the constant crying out for freedom of expression, which ironically infringes upon the freedom of the silent majority, as I have pointed out earlier.

Singapore is not a closed society. Anyone who wishes to can leave and is not forced to stay. But it is not democratic, you say. There is no freedom of expression. Then how come I keep hearing these things being said and written? If there is truly no freedom of expression, I would not have to bear with bleeding heart liberals (PM's words, not mine) whining all the time.

The tyranny of the silent majority. I don't know how many time dictators and goverment that oppress the people had used this as an excuse.

If you are week and subject to temptation, well, control yourself, but you rather the easy way out, ban it so you won't be tempted. What next are you going to ban?

Wake up, we are not just talking about nudity and art/pron here. The longer Singapore continues to supress/censor/ban thoughts, ideas and creativity, the world will just pass it and never look back. Singapore has lots going for itself, but what it is doing now is sitting on its laurel, afraid to open itself to innovation and creativeness.

By the way, changes is coming, selectively, and changes are made only to make money.

Of all the vices, the worse of all is gambing!

 

[student]

Singapore is not a closed society. Anyone who wishes to can leave and is not forced to stay. But it is not democratic, you say. There is no freedom of expression. Then how come I keep hearing these things being said and written? If there is truly no freedom of expression, I would not have to bear with bleeding heart liberals (PM's words, not mine) whining all the time.

The problem comes when one deals with absolutes.

Of course there is freedom of expression - but only within what is allowed.

Now how do we define "Freedom of Expression"?

There was a story (cannot verify - too long ago! Maybe it was just a story - but an interesting story anyway!) concerning a man who approached the strong-armed leader in a certain country and said, "I am an American. In my country, I can go straight to the President of the US, and tell him in the face, I don't like his face. We have freedom of expression in the US"

The strong-armed leader smiled and replied, "We have freedom of expression in this country also. You can always approach me and tell me in my face that you do not like the face of the Aerican President!"

So what is "freedom of expression"?

And again, we hear the same tired line. Leave if you are not happy.

 

[melnjes]

The tyranny of the silent majority. I don't know how many time dictators and goverment that oppress the people had used this as an excuse.

Interesting observation - I would see it as the tyranny of the vocal minority.

 

[StreetShooter]

The tyranny of the silent majority. I don't know how many time dictators and goverment that oppress the people had used this as an excuse.

Um... reality check. This is not the dictator or government speaking. This is someone voicing his opinion.

If you are week and subject to temptation, well, control yourself, but you rather the easy way out, ban it so you won't be tempted. What next are you going to ban?

I am indeed weak and subject to temptation, which is why I need all the help I can get to control myself. This is why I'm glad to be living in a society like this. And I think it is not far-fetched to conclude that society is the way it is because the majority wishes it to be so.

Wake up, we are not just talking about nudity and art/pron here. The longer Singapore continues to supress/censor/ban thoughts, ideas and creativity, the world will just pass it and never look back. Singapore has lots going for itself, but what it is doing now is sitting on its laurel, afraid to open itself to innovation and creativeness.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't think that my ability to think, come up with new ideas or be creative is in any way hampered by the social environment I am living in. In fact, it probably helped tremendously. I think I am as creative as you think you are.

By the way, changes is coming, selectively, and changes are made only to make money.
Of all the vices, the worse of all is gambing!

No comment.

 

[StreetShooter]

And again, we hear the same tired line. Leave if you are not happy.

What is so tired about this line? Is it not a reasonable suggestion?

 

[doug3fflux]

Hmm... Actually I dun really think so.

Creativity, arts, culture. Some of which involves from 'clean' nude paintings, right down to the Adult Entertainment business and stuff like dat had evolved and flourished in places like Indonesia, Japan, etc. And not only in the United States.

I guess its not very much abt the A-S-I-A-N thing, but more oft how much society is willing to accept such things.

Well things will change, regardless of how complacent ppl are. Its like a moving wheel. MDA, ClubSNAP or what. Come one day, such things will change. When the change comes, it all depends on whether the ppl would want to accept the change. Watched the movie Pleasantville? Its something like that.

Personally not all changes are good but when it comes, not even the most powerful being on earth can stop that even with their riches or power they wield.

Things that were considered 'decadent' in the past, of breakdancing, tattoos, nudity, social disobedience (white elephants anyone?), long hair, casinos... If u guys are old enuff u would have known that these would be impossible in the past and clamped down before there is a spark. What now? Things had changed so much nw.

Perhaps changes may seem slow, but I guess things will eventually come. A matter of 'soon or later'.

Its all a matter of time. It always has been.

i must agree with you, jsbn. the willingness for the society to accept such change is also crucial for a newer, refreshed art scene. But let us bear in mind that there is always the other half who will not want to accept such changes - those, generically speaking, who hold on tight to tradition and values that Temasek once started out with. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, in a world that never stands still , that is quite admirable!

oh and for the record, I was using the superpower as a generalized noun.


Douglas

 

[doug3fflux]

ladies and gentlemen, democracy is a state of mind. they most probably had all the plans for IR up and done in 2000 already. =)

 

[GitS]

I am indeed weak and subject to temptation, which is why I need all the help I can get to control myself. This is why I'm glad to be living in a society like this. And I think it is not far-fetched to conclude that society is the way it is because the majority wishes it to be so.

reality check for you dude, you are the archetype that the government is furiously trying to undo. gone are the days of the cloistered, myopic citizenry which thrived on rote learning and the gahmen to tell them what is right and wrong. if the constant review of our education system, the foreign talent policy, the feedback unit, and the IR is anything to go by, gone are the days of calling for the government to "ban this" and "ban that" just because something grates against your personal holier-than-thou confucian/Asian "ethic".

 

[LittleWolf]

Well, if everyone's gonna define every single nude as pornographic its high time ppl change their mentality.

In a chauvinist society where it's acceptable to refer to women as "sexy babes" and "pictures of a car/motor exhibition" means pictures of thinly clad models, this mentality may reflect reality. What needs to change is not the mentality of people with respect to nude pictures, but the mentality of people with respect to how they view/treat the other sex.

 

[student]

What is so tired about this line? Is it not a reasonable suggestion?

It is a MOST reasonable suggestion from those who could not do better.

 

[Bobman]

There is always a debate between nude and naked. Nude is often considered as an artform, while naked is frequently associated with pronography.

Says who? Only those who think they are arty will say that, but actually they are not.

 

[eikin]

anyone knows why the nude body is appreciated as an art? and how it started? just some OT questions