Eighteen to Two Hundred VR again....

[diediealsomustdive]

Just a tale from the past... once upon a time Nikon used a plastic gear in the motor drive for the ELW, which would wear out and breakdown after some years of usage. Story has it that "a gear from MD-2 would fix this problem" (or was it MD-3?). Plastic gear in a motor drive? You gotta be kidding me!

With the current saga, the AF 80-200ED situation, it appears that Nikon can sometimes take illogical decisions to save some cost. But at what cost? How much is a plastic gear vs a metal gear? A plastic screw vs a metal screw? A plastic mount vs a metal mount?

But it was C that started this plastic mount non-sense.... story for another day.

 

[lsisaxon]

I think the most impt thing people is asking is the NEW 18-200 fixed? anyone can verify this so it can help with purchase decisions.

That is what I want to know as well.. But I think it is unlikely if Nikon did not even see it as a problem in the first place. Unfortunately, I have yet to find reports of the same problem in international forums like dpreview.

 

[vince123123]

If all else fails, perhaps you can also try considering a Small Claims Tribunal action just like the Nokia lady did to exert some positive pressure on Nikon. After all its only S$10 and some hours of your time hehe .

What's the email for Nikon JP? I'd like to email them this thread and all the related threads to see what they have to say.

If it's as Omega23 mentioned, Nikon JP referring back to NSC, then could NSC make the final decision as to how to fix the problem to prevent it from recurring and gain some 'initiative' recognition since Nikon JP would want to shove the responsibility to NSC?

I do hope they have a fix soon, even if the problem only affects users in this region. I'm suspecting that the glue that holds the FPC down does not react well to higher temperature and humidity like the climate in SG. But again, I think the problem could be avoided if the design could be modified a little.

Edit: Searched dpreview but could not find a similar complaint. People complained about the front element loosening and zoom creep though.. So I guess it's probably a localized problem in this region, highly likely due to humidity and temperature.

 

[La Fontaine]

Just a tale from the past... once upon a time Nikon used a plastic gear in the motor drive for the ELW, which would wear out and breakdown after some years of usage. Story has it that "a gear from MD-2 would fix this problem" (or was it MD-3?). Plastic gear in a motor drive? You gotta be kidding me!

With the current saga, the AF 80-200ED situation, it appears that Nikon can sometimes take illogical decisions to save some cost. But at what cost? How much is a plastic gear vs a metal gear? A plastic screw vs a metal screw? A plastic mount vs a metal mount?

But it was C that started this plastic mount non-sense.... story for another day.

I suppose the 80-200ED is a lens that belongs to the film era and so, Nikon would not even take a second look at it or make an effort to improve it. Well, if there is a demand, they will continue to produce it. I had that lens before. It was so darn solid physically except for that stupid flimsy plastic ring.

Plastic gear/plastic screw/plastic mount - well, it is a matter of material cost and manufacturing cost. In a lens that cost say 350bucks, each bit of screw, gear and other tiny part count towards the cost. Now, actually, some engineering plastics for gear or mount that requires strength and wear resistance do cost more than steel, just for the material alone. But, the total cost is lower, as plastic injection mould is fast and cheap in large quantities.

Now, based on average amateur use, the cheapo lenses are designed to last an average of say 2years, while giving you 1 year warranty. This is in view of getting a target of less than 1% of the units coming back for repairs in the service centre during the waranty period.

Heard of lifetime warranty? Yes, those memory cards. Well, anyone still using 128Mb card? :bsmilie:

 

[lsisaxon]

If all else fails, perhaps you can also try considering a Small Claims Tribunal action just like the Nokia lady did to exert some positive pressure on Nikon. After all its only S$10 and some hours of your time hehe .

Jonathan from NSC has gotten back to me regarding this issue. He has escalated the problem to Nikon HK (NSC is under HK) and they will be doing something to mitigate the problem.

Their stand is that the number of such problems is still pretty much isolated to warrant an issue of service advisory like the D5000 case.

He is also giving the assurance that NSC has something in place (which I cannot spell out publicly) for owners of the lens who have genuine problems with the FPC facing the same failure mechanism. They will be getting advice from Tokyo to see if a replacement glue could be used to prevent such a problem from recurring.

He was also surprised that the problem on my unit resurfaced so quickly because the FPC they put in was already a redesigned one. My guess is that it might also be the case that for my lens, the tolerance of the clearance between the focusing lever and the barrel where the FPC is secured is on the lower limits? :dunno:

He will also help to find out whether the VR II has the same layout that might cause the same problem. His understanding from Nikon HK is that the built is slightly different from the VR I.

Jonathan welcomes anyone having an FPC problem with the lens now or in the future to contact him directly for the options. His number is (PM me for his number). So those of you having the lens, please do write this number down in case you need it. Unfortunately, Nikon has a policy that doesn't allow their staff to post in forums such as this.

Meanwhile, I'll be assessing whether to keep my MiJ copy of the lens for sentimental reasons or to allow it to be sent to Nikon HK for QA purposes and get a loan unit for the time being and there is a chance that I may not be getting back my original lens depending on what they have to do to it... I think I am leaning towards the latter so that Nikon can study the problem more thoroughly to come up with a proper solution for the sake of the entire community having this lens. :think:

With this kind of assurance from NSC, I would not hesitate to still recommend this lens to whoever wants a convenience of a superzoom to get it. The convenience and the optical quality for this kind of zoom range the lens give is enough reason why I have two copies of this lens. I would now classify this as just a tiny setback since NSC is assuring that the cases are isolated and they have something in place in case the problem do surface.

Kudos to Jonathan and NSC again. At least we know we can depend on NSC and they are genuine in trying to keep users happy. :thumbsup:

 

[Omega23]

Wow thats good... hope they solve the fragile plastic ring problem too.

 

[lsisaxon]

Wow thats good... hope they solve the fragile plastic ring problem too.

Post the problem and pool the people who have the problem together and approach Jonathan. He is ready to help. If it can be proven that the parts crack at exactly the same spot, I think we have a case and they should do something about it. I don't have the two touch 80-200, so I can't comment.

 

[ziploc]

From your posts I'm getting the impresion that the 18-200VR FPC problem is related to MF? Does it also happen if using just purely AF as well? So far I've not encountered any problem with my 18-200VR, except for the occasional zoom creep. Keeping my fingers cross.

 

[chngpe01]

Wow thats good... hope they solve the fragile plastic ring problem too.

Not speaking for Nikon but as a consumer.

Well that will be if it is still in production and if there is a life time warranty. That sad fact is that with the 70-200f2.8 VRII - the 2-touch 80-200 is already history(my apologies if my term used, offend anyone with this wonderful lens).

Imagine the cost to open a production line just for that only. And I am figuring who would will be paying for that? Certainly not Santa, but us, cos prices of future lens will have to factor in such cost too :think:

 

[lsisaxon]

From your posts I'm getting the impresion that the 18-200VR FPC problem is related to MF? Does it also happen if using just purely AF as well? So far I've not encountered any problem with my 18-200VR, except for the occasional zoom creep. Keeping my fingers cross.

The AF will drive the focusing lever which is internal to move the focusing group. In this recent case, I had to performed an MF because the AF got stuck around the 1m mark when I was shooting, then I felt the tension and I know there goes my VR and it did... Spoilt my entire day as I had to keep turning the camera off and on to reset the VR because the VR would then go clack clack clack and then would not center once it enters standby mode.. Once that happen, it will settle in that position and the optical centering would be off and the image will have some chromatic aberration and not as sharp.

That's why NSC assured me it's quite an isolated case because they have the statistics that the problem has not gotten out of hand.

Here is a picture from the last time I stripped the lens.

The piece of vertical metal structure near the tip of my thumb is the focusing lever. It will slide around the barrel and the groove in the centre is coupled to a shaft which is driven by the AF/MF clutch mechanism to perform the focusing. If you notice where the FPC is dressed (the flat portion on the barrel), you will realise that the focusing lever will slide over the FPC and the glued portion is at the side near the slot and another one on top. So if the glue expands and the gap between the focusing lever and the FPC is insufficient, or the free end of the FPC which wraps out from the slot juts out a little too much, then the FPC will impede the movement of the focusing lever trying to traverse over it. In the case of AF, the torque is insufficient, so it will be jammed. When that happens, there is a tendency to perform MF, and that's when I felt the tension and I know that the FPC is damaged again.

 

[vince123123]

Thanks to Isisaxion for the indepth technical writeup (as always). Unfortunately I'm not as technically proficient as you when it comes to lenses and stuffs, so what should I, as a layperson owner of this lens, watch out for? Basically from your writeup, should I be looking for a stuck AF, and when pushing it too hard, cause the problem?

What exactly are symptoms of this problem to watch out for? IN other words, what do I look out for AFTER I push the stuck AF too hard? Weird sounds? I'm not too sure if I can tell whether the VR is operational or non-operational (or perhaps you can help us here too?).

 

[ziploc]

Thanks for the info.

 

[lsisaxon]

Thanks to Isisaxion for the indepth technical writeup (as always). Unfortunately I'm not as technically proficient as you when it comes to lenses and stuffs, so what should I, as a layperson owner of this lens, watch out for? Basically from your writeup, should I be looking for a stuck AF, and when pushing it too hard, cause the problem?

What exactly are symptoms of this problem to watch out for? IN other words, what do I look out for AFTER I push the stuck AF too hard? Weird sounds? I'm not too sure if I can tell whether the VR is operational or non-operational (or perhaps you can help us here too?).

Hmm.. after.. Look out for VR that's not working, VR that's shaking up and down then dying. Shots taken will have asymmetrical colour fringing on the centre of the image if the VR element is off centered..

 

[vince123123]

Thanks for the information....any sample photo of this colour fringing thingy?

Hmm.. after.. Look out for VR that's not working, VR that's shaking up and down then dying. Shots taken will have asymmetrical colour fringing on the centre of the image if the VR element is off centered..

 

[lsisaxon]

Thanks for the information....any sample photo of this colour fringing thingy?

Will try look for an example and put up tonight.

 

[vince123123]

Thanks so much. I also have a 18-200 Thai version and don't wnat to be at the short end of the stick; mcuh less being so without even knowing about it.

Will try look for an example and put up tonight.

 

[lsisaxon]

Thanks so much. I also have a 18-200 Thai version and don't wnat to be at the short end of the stick; mcuh less being so without even knowing about it.

The Thai copy with my dad is still working fine. Another reason not to worry about where the product is made in. One would expect the MiJ quality to be better but it is clearly not the case. If there's a problem, it will plague a MiJ product as well.

Just make sure the VR is working and you should be fine. It's only when it stopped working that caused the optical axis of the VR element to be off-centre.

 

[vince123123]

How does one tell if the VR is working? Shoot at lower shutter with and without to see if there's a difference?

The Thai copy with my dad is still working fine. Another reason not to worry about where the product is made in. One would expect the MiJ quality to be better but it is clearly not the case. If there's a problem, it will plague a MiJ product as well.

Just make sure the VR is working and you should be fine. It's only when it stopped working that caused the optical axis of the VR element to be off-centre.

 

[lsisaxon]

How does one tell if the VR is working? Shoot at lower shutter with and without to see if there's a difference?

There should be a soft zzztzztzzztztzz.. sound coming from the lens when it's in operation. And when you deliberately shake the camera slightly while looking through the viewfinder, you should see the image to be stable.

Here is a centre 100% crop when the VR element is off centre.

You can see that the fringing affects only one axis but not the other. In this case, there is fringing at the top and bottom but not on the left and right. For this particular lens, there should not be any fringing at the centre if the VR element is properly centered.

 

[tltan]

Not speaking for Nikon but as a consumer.

Well that will be if it is still in production and if there is a life time warranty. That sad fact is that with the 70-200f2.8 VRII - the 2-touch 80-200 is already history(my apologies if my term used, offend anyone with this wonderful lens).

Imagine the cost to open a production line just for that only. And I am figuring who would will be paying for that? Certainly not Santa, but us, cos prices of future lens will have to factor in such cost too :think:

Alright. I know that the 80-200 is history.

But still, the problem lies with design. So how about waiving off the workmanship fees and just allow us to pay for the parts for such known problem. Well...I guess nothing will be done anyway. If the situation is now on the 70-200, surely people will make noise.

Anyway, 80-200 is still in production right. Pardon my knowledge if i got it wrong.
the AFS version is out though.