alamak
Member
I got the "shutter shock" reading that review!
[ Discuss ] EP5 vs GX7. Or EM5?
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I got the "shutter shock" reading that review!
If you read the thread on dpreview, it seems to be a combination of weight and shutter and unique in it's severity with the EP5 as the EM5 doesn't suffer from it. The NEX series don't have despite being light because of the electronic first curtain shutter. The GX7 may suffer from it. Let's see when DP Review's review on the GX7 comes out. However, you can turn on the fully electronic silent shutter on the GX7 to eliminate any possibility of it.
my take is read the review again more carefully and slowly regarding the conclusions pointed out.
If this is true (no one knows yet); then most likely every single mirror-less model (other then Sony - Oly5050, good choice !) will be susceptible to it and obviously a huge coup for DPreviews as mirror-less technology has been around for years and it seems almost everyone professional, amateur, hobbyist have been ignorant to this very glaring issue. Not very comfortable.
Double-images and blurring from 1/80 to 1/200s by all rights should have been highlighted by users since it was reported by them to be 'significantly common'. This is an issue impactful enough for Oly & Pana to answer since they are the forerunners in MFT.
anyway, to get this issue settled; i emailed Olympus US and SG tech support and Panasonic SG tech support about it, along with the links to the review.
I'm an amateur-ish user and not qualified enough to answer.
Let's wait for the professionals DPreview & Oly & Pana to reply.
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titus1984
Senior Member
I have decided not to go for GX7 because i do use legacy lenses and the lack of auto ISO in M and S mode while mounting legacy lenses with adapter really strike panny camera off my list. I tried GX1, think the controls are better but decided to sell it off after a week because of the auto ISO. Also, the colours from olympus is really my cup of tea, love the JPEG much better over GX1. EP5 is good but i think i prefer to have a EVF built in. While you may argue that EP5 come with a detachable one that is as good as the EM1 and better than the EM5, i have this constant fear that i will break it if i keep it on all the time, esp when i take it in and out of the bag. To be honest, i am struggling between the EM1, EM5. EM5 kit set can be bought at 1200 brand new now but EM1 looks so good....
I find the M43 crop factor of 2.0 an issue with legacy lenses. If I mount my amazingly sharp 35mm Zeiss Biogon on my EM5 or GX7, I get a 70mm lens, which isn't that useful to me. The EM5 doesn't have focus peaking, so that's a real problem for me using legacy lenses. As much as I hate to say it in this forum, if you use legacy lenses, you are best served in the NEX world because the 1.5x crop factor is lower and there is focus peaking. BUT.... neither my NEX 5N or 6 allow Auto ISO in M mode. I think it works in S mode though.
I'm sure you will be happy with the EM1 though...
titus1984
Senior Member
True about the crop factor issue.. I am using 2 cctv lens and 2 minolta lens. For the minolta they are both 50mm, one for portrait and another for my macro work. Other than these, I did try 24mm 28mm and 100mm focal length legacy lenses. They are either too big or manual focus is too slow for my subject. There are also third party lens maker like samyang and nokton which has v good manual lenses. Having a good IBIS, focus peaking and auto ISO is v impt and it appears the EM1 ticks these boxes...The only thing remain is the price...It is FF level
george671
New Member
Try the Voigtlander 20mm SL... or the venerable Nikon 18mm... both will get you in the ballpark of your desired 35mm FOV... I find the 20mm Voigtlander to be just as sharp,(as the Zeiss) (both currently made by Cosina) and 40mm FOV (FF) works great for me...I sold my Nikon 18 several years ago in favor of the voigtlander Bessa L/15mm combo....(film) later replaced by the Rokinon 14... But soon to be replaced by the Rokinon 10 (smaller and less weight)...I do love the little Nex5...been thinking of getting a cheap one (second hand) for the panoramic mode... Cheers
Update:
Oly SG has replied , they will investigate the claims by DPReview and answer in due course.
Nothing heard from Pana SG yet.
Try the Voigtlander 20mm SL... or the venerable Nikon 18mm... both will get you in the ballpark of your desired 35mm FOV... I find the 20mm Voigtlander to be just as sharp,(as the Zeiss) (both currently made by Cosina) and 40mm FOV (FF) works great for me...I sold my Nikon 18 several years ago in favor of the voigtlander Bessa L/15mm combo....(film) later replaced by the Rokinon 14... But soon to be replaced by the Rokinon 10 (smaller and less weight)...I do love the little Nex5...been thinking of getting a cheap one (second hand) for the panoramic mode... Cheers
Thanks. I looked at the Voigtlander 20mm, but I'm a sucker for shallow DOF and F3.5 on M43 is just too much DOF for me. I have had the Voigtlander 15mm F4 in M mount for some time and plan to try that at some point on the GX7. My favourite lens is the Zeiss Biogon ZM 35mm F2 on the NEX.
Since starting on mFT bodies, I have adapted my shooting style to a smaller body, unlike in a traditional DSLR type body. I don't actually grip the body as much. Instead I "rest"/stabilise both lens and body with my left hand and using my right to operate the control mainly. This is of course only possible because of the much more compact dimensions of the mFT and use of the LCD for framing. I don't actually use much "grip" with the right hand.
And yes, the GX1 is noisy. But as it goes the EP5 sounds more assured than the GX7.
george671
New Member
I also use my Voigtlander 40mm F2 SL , My Nikon 28mm F2 and any of my Nikon 50 f1.4's for bokeh... but seriously, the Nikon 28 F2 is pretty sharp as well and will get you into the normal prime range (56mm FOV FF equivalent) if you can find one...Bokeh is not bad either. Also try the Samyang (Rokinon 24mm 1.4 as well)...
mu-43 forum's Ray (one of their moderators) did an informal test for shutter shock on EP5 and GX7 from a request, more people are starting to be curious about this phenomenon.
text below was lifted wholesale from: http://www.mu-43.com/showthread.php?t=53461&page=4 ---> go read for the sake of fun la, Ray used the Oly75mm prime in his test.
"Doesn't seem to be much difference between them (EP5 and GX7) . Both cameras were repeatably a little bit soft in the neighborhood of 1/100 to 1/125, handheld (stabilization turned on). Neither was particularly bad - just barely visible if you looked REAL close at normal viewing size, but both noticeable at 100%. The EP5 is weakest right at 1/100 and sharpens up at 1/125. The GX7 is slightly soft at 1/100 but notably soft at 1/125.
On a tripod (2 second delay, stabilization turned off), the EP5 is still soft right at 1/100, but is fine above and below that. The GX7, oddly, is soft at 1/60th but not at any other shutter speed."
Will forward this to Oly SG & Pana SG too.
Spoke to the technician yesterday while i was at Oly SG. Nice chap, he's helping out with this issue. Still waiting for Pany's answer though. I'm guessing it will take some time for Oly to give an official answer no matter what. Anyone knows anyone at Pana pls help, i've no contacts w/ pple inside Pana
Anyway, bottom line - don't be worried about this whatever u call it. It'd be stupid to be worried about this till u skip either camera bodies. Both are great. Locally I don't know of anyone facing this issue with both cameras.
The 'best camera' is what suits your personal style and great photos are a product of the user working thru the camera's quirks and strengths. No camera is perfect
My friends will probably laugh at me for spending the effort on this while this time can be spent on shooting instead.
If u r lucky enough to either own the EP5 or GX7, go out n enjoy shooting these 2 great camera bodies and ..haha i can't wait for EM-1 and 12-40 to appear.. Soon... soon...
text below was lifted wholesale from: http://www.mu-43.com/showthread.php?t=53461&page=4 ---> go read for the sake of fun la, Ray used the Oly75mm prime in his test.
"Doesn't seem to be much difference between them (EP5 and GX7) . Both cameras were repeatably a little bit soft in the neighborhood of 1/100 to 1/125, handheld (stabilization turned on). Neither was particularly bad - just barely visible if you looked REAL close at normal viewing size, but both noticeable at 100%. The EP5 is weakest right at 1/100 and sharpens up at 1/125. The GX7 is slightly soft at 1/100 but notably soft at 1/125.
On a tripod (2 second delay, stabilization turned off), the EP5 is still soft right at 1/100, but is fine above and below that. The GX7, oddly, is soft at 1/60th but not at any other shutter speed."
Will forward this to Oly SG & Pana SG too.
Spoke to the technician yesterday while i was at Oly SG. Nice chap, he's helping out with this issue. Still waiting for Pany's answer though. I'm guessing it will take some time for Oly to give an official answer no matter what. Anyone knows anyone at Pana pls help, i've no contacts w/ pple inside Pana
Anyway, bottom line - don't be worried about this whatever u call it. It'd be stupid to be worried about this till u skip either camera bodies. Both are great. Locally I don't know of anyone facing this issue with both cameras.
The 'best camera' is what suits your personal style and great photos are a product of the user working thru the camera's quirks and strengths. No camera is perfect
My friends will probably laugh at me for spending the effort on this while this time can be spent on shooting instead.
If u r lucky enough to either own the EP5 or GX7, go out n enjoy shooting these 2 great camera bodies and ..haha i can't wait for EM-1 and 12-40 to appear.. Soon... soon...
The summary of his analysis is also quite informative:
"So, to the extend my very informal results can be trusted, the EP5 seems to have some impact from shutter shock or whatever right at 1/100 of a second, whether handheld or on a tripod. The GX7 is soft at 1/125 handheld and at 1/60 on a tripod. Neither seemed to have any trouble with 1/160, which I think is where DP Review had some issues with the EP5. I'm sure their testing is overwhelmingly more rigorous than mine, but for whatever it may be worth, there you go...
Oh, btw, all of my test shots were done with the Olympus 75mm lens focused on a flag about 25 feet away. There was very little wind, but there was slight movement, so I tried to focus on where the flag was wrapped around the pole, which wasn't moving. Also, I tested the GX7 with the normal shutter, not the silent electronic shutter. I'm guessing that would have had no problems, but I didn't want to confuse myself with too many variables..."
So it's clear that he thinks that the EP5 has shutter shock or whatever and so does the GX7. He used a 75mm, while DP Preview used other lenses, which is perhaps why he didn't get it at 1/160th. With the GX7, you can eliminate shutter shock by turning on the electronic shutter. With the EP5, you can reduce it by turning on the delay between pressing the shutter and the actual exposure.
Meanwhile, we wait for DP Reviews conclusion on the GX7 with baited breath.
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EP5 and GX7 shots again, and in worst case scenario even EM5 and all MFT shots.
Just wait patiently for Oly and Pana to reply.
Latest I've seen from DP Review is that they are saying its not "shutter shock" and unique to the EP5
'Shutter shock' should look like mirror shock on SLRs, and have the same characteristics. Crucially, mirror shock is visible on a tripod, and 100% reproducible shot-to-shot. It's also independent of how the shutter is released (shutter button, remote release, touchscreen etc). This is well known, and it's why most SLRs have a mirror lock-up function.
The phenomenon we observed with the E-P5 does not look this at all. With the camera on a tripod, there's absolutely no hint of blurring, in all the test shots I've taken (which runs into hundreds). This is true not just on the properly-solid tripods I normally use for testing, but also on the lightest, flimsiest tripod I own, which is very wobbly indeed (I wouldn't dream of using the E-P5 on it normally). The shake also substantially goes away if you use the touchscreen to release the shutter when shooting handheld. This doesn't fit a 'shutter shock' explanation at all.
The shake does substantially go away if you shoot-hand with 1/8 sec anti-shock. It's visible again if you shoot hand-held with a 2 second self-timer, and my impression is that this has often been considered clinching proof of a shutter shock mechanism. The problem is that this comparison changes two variables at once, which any trained experimentalist will tell you is a bad idea. The correct comparison with 2 second self-timer is 2 second anti-shock - and in my testing, shake is (perhaps unexpectedly) similarly visible with both - it comes back again with the longer anti-shock delay. Again, I don't see how this observation can fit a 'shutter shock' mechanism.
Andy Westlake
dpreview.com
'Shutter shock' should look like mirror shock on SLRs, and have the same characteristics. Crucially, mirror shock is visible on a tripod, and 100% reproducible shot-to-shot. It's also independent of how the shutter is released (shutter button, remote release, touchscreen etc). This is well known, and it's why most SLRs have a mirror lock-up function.
The phenomenon we observed with the E-P5 does not look this at all. With the camera on a tripod, there's absolutely no hint of blurring, in all the test shots I've taken (which runs into hundreds). This is true not just on the properly-solid tripods I normally use for testing, but also on the lightest, flimsiest tripod I own, which is very wobbly indeed (I wouldn't dream of using the E-P5 on it normally). The shake also substantially goes away if you use the touchscreen to release the shutter when shooting handheld. This doesn't fit a 'shutter shock' explanation at all.
The shake does substantially go away if you shoot-hand with 1/8 sec anti-shock. It's visible again if you shoot hand-held with a 2 second self-timer, and my impression is that this has often been considered clinching proof of a shutter shock mechanism. The problem is that this comparison changes two variables at once, which any trained experimentalist will tell you is a bad idea. The correct comparison with 2 second self-timer is 2 second anti-shock - and in my testing, shake is (perhaps unexpectedly) similarly visible with both - it comes back again with the longer anti-shock delay. Again, I don't see how this observation can fit a 'shutter shock' mechanism.
Andy Westlake
dpreview.com
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