Disallowing Nude Photoshoots with immediate effect

[night86mare]

Yes, but did you need to also expand the topic to MASS non-nude photoshoots? Since you did, I don't think there's anything wrong for another person to comment on your comment.

if it's taken to be expanded out of context not my problem

have a nice day, this will be the last post on the matter because you insist on harping on an ot topic here.

 

[vince123123]

No issue, I guess its always harder to view the situation when it is reversed upon you. As they say, thief cry catch thief.

No problem, I fully understand and since I've made the point, it can end Its up to you to see it or not.

Cheers!

if it's taken to be expanded out of context not my problem

have a nice day, this will be the last post on the matter because you insist on harping on an ot topic here.

 

[billycadiz]

Amigos,

what if only the posting of nude photos are to be BANNED? because some posted pics are too much already, maybe they can organized,then for arts sake they can just keep the products for their portfolios, not bragging it to the whole community(the nude ones:bsmilie::bigeyes I think it will spoil what others here have started for this kind of shoot..

Warm regards,
Billy:lovegrin:

 

[Del_CtrlnoAlt]

night86mare & vince123123, please bring both of your personal grudges offline or at least off this thread.

 

[SleepingIdol]

Amigos,

what if only the posting of nude photos are to be BANNED? because some posted pics are too much already, maybe they can organized,then for arts sake they can just keep the products for their portfolios, not bragging it to the whole community(the nude ones:bsmilie::bigeyes I think it will spoil what others here have started for this kind of shoot..

Warm regards,
Billy:lovegrin:

I tend to agree with this...

 

[shuhry81]

lol.

 

[Octarine]

what if only the posting of nude photos are to be BANNED? because some posted pics are too much already, maybe they can organized,then for arts sake they can just keep the products for their portfolios, not bragging it to the whole community(the nude ones:bsmilie::bigeyes I think it will spoil what others here have started for this kind of shoot..

If we want to focus on making good pictures then the banning of organizing mass shutter clicking in front of naked girls might be helpful in order to focus again on the topic: creating good images of the model regardless of her state of clothing. Banning the pictures defeats the purpose of an online community that comes together to share, discuss and develop photographic skills.
Most threads have a disclaimer or hints about nude content. It is your decision to view them or not. Beside this: I have seen breathtaking nude pictures here. Some of the non-nude ones even had a greater erotic appeal. Banning such art work would be clearly a loss.

 

[waileong]

1. It's useless, TNP is not going to run another story about how squeaky clean CS has become one year later. Why? Because they are in this for the sensationalism.

2. It's dumb to be pressured by, of all people, a tabloid paper. It shows one does not have one's own convictions, and acts only because of external pressures.

After much discussion amongst the Admin/Mod team (and yeah, you can all whack us now for the slow response which has led to this unfortunate event), here are the steps that will be taken with immediate effect :-

• We will put in place a new policy to disallow marketing/advertising of nude photoshoots in the PhotoShoots section. We note that there is a grey area under local Singaporean law regarding publication and distribution of images/videos taken during such shoots and we do not wish to "push the envelope" at this current point in time to test the limits of said laws.
• Existing shoots of such nature will be deleted and we will liaise with the Organiser on reimbursement of their subscriptions.
• We will complete the forms-based method of posting into the PhotoShoots section to standardise the thread titling (as promised in Episode 1 of Sex Sells..) and to "tone down" the excessive perceived sleaziness of said threads.

We will be monitoring the PhotoShoots section more closely for the time being, and will remove/suspend shoots which we feel are bordering on the edge of decency or are pushing too much out of the limits of what should be allowed.

Thus, our main aims of this exercise are to :-
a) Halt and/or reverse the perception that ClubSNAP is a sleazy site.
b) Restore some sense of pride into ClubSNAP as a community which, as some have voiced, seems to have taken a back seat in recent years, partly due to the growth of the community and partly also because of lack of attention from the Admins/Mods in that regard.

As always, while we can set down the boundaries and guidelines, we will continue to rely on members to also help us steer the community in the right general direction and we trust that this will set us back on the right path. We are in this together.

At the end of the day, nude (artistic, sleazy, pornographic or otherwise) is also a legitimate genre of photography, and by curbing this outlet, we do not want to be seen as stifling the growth of the local photography community. If/when social mores mature and stigmas are removed, perhaps we can revisit this in future.

Please note that discussions about nude photography are still allowed (with threads to be appropriately titled and images hot-linked, not directly embedded), we are only banning the organisation of nude photoshoots.

Thank you to all members for their very vocal feedback, and we apologise for our slow response to the previous thread which has led to this.

 

[Deadpoet]

If that is the decision of the administration, that is the decision and we should respect it.

It's a very sad day nonetheless.

 

[roygoh]

1. It's useless, TNP is not going to run another story about how squeaky clean CS has become one year later. Why? Because they are in this for the sensationalism.

2. It's dumb to be pressured by, of all people, a tabloid paper. It shows one does not have one's own convictions, and acts only because of external pressures.

This has been a topic discussed among the mods and admins for a long time. No doubt the jump to make the decision is related to the recent event, but I would not agree that we are pressured by a tabloid paper and that we do not have conviction.

 

[roygoh]

If that is the decision of the administration, that is the decision and we should respect it.

It's a very sad day nonetheless.

What is there to be so sad about?

We are disallowing the marketing and advertisements for nude photoshoot sessions, that's all.

Members can still discuss about this genre of photography and share their work (as long as there is no hot linking). Nude photoshoots will still take place because supplies and demands are both strong.

 

[Darren]

1. It's useless, TNP is not going to run another story about how squeaky clean CS has become one year later. Why? Because they are in this for the sensationalism.

2. It's dumb to be pressured by, of all people, a tabloid paper. It shows one does not have one's own convictions, and acts only because of external pressures.

If that is the decision of the administration, that is the decision and we should respect it.

Disclaimer - my reply is not targeted at waileong nor Deadpoet, and is a general reflection on some of the messages I have received as well as from the threads in public. I am just quoting for sake of reference.

I have received many messages that show support for the move to disallow the marketing of nude photoshoots (and also on the request to tone down the thread titles in that section) and that members (in general) support the move to clean up our image.

As Roy has mentioned, this issue was raised some time ago, and it is unfortunate that we (meaning the Admins) allowed it to fester and become publicised in a way that painted the community collectively in a bad light. As they say, hindsight is 20:20 vision.

As I see it (and others too - Mods and members), ClubSNAP was going down a potentially rocky path with unwanted associations to sleaze and pornography, mainly due to the availability of nude photoshoots that were (to many) bordering on pornography.

We now have the chance to get into reverse gear and make some course corrections to get back on the right path, which in this particular instance, is to remove the perception of sleaze within ClubSNAP and rebuild our reputation. How slowly or quickly that will happen, we cannot predict at this time, but our efforts from the Administration/Moderator team will be focused on this aspect for the short to mid-term. We also ask the same of our members to contribute to the effort as this community is built for you.

We also understand that some members of the community will be affected by this decision and as I mentioned in my first post, we take this drastic step now and will consider easing the restrictions if the right conditions come around.

For example, a few members (and also Mods) have expressed that artistic nude workshops be allowed with the proper guidelines, terms & conditions in place which we take to mean - an established photographer as mentor and teacher, proper equipment and settings, limited participants, and the focus is more on a workshop to understand the subtleties of nude photography as opposed to the recent "Cram GWCs into a room to shoot a nekkid female" type shoot. This will go in line with a post in the other thread that surmised the need to have a screening process for potential nude workshop organisers and we will have to work out some way of doing that in future.

Finally, to end my long post, and to risk sounding like a broken record as I believe I have said this a few times in the past, we will only be able to please most members most of the time, and we will not be able to please all members all of the time.

 

[waileong]

What is there to be so sad about?

We are disallowing the marketing and advertisements for nude photoshoot sessions, that's all.

Members can still discuss about this genre of photography and share their work (as long as there is no hot linking). Nude photoshoots will still take place because supplies and demands are both strong.

You don't understand? I cannot speak for DP but let me give you my perspective why it's a sad day.

It's sad because you've allowed yourself to be pressured by the media, and a tabloid known for sensationalism, at that.

It's sad because it shows you do not have your own moral convictions and are acting like politicians who worry all day about what the media are saying. Esp the posts talking about not wanting to push the envelope, being steered by the wishes of the community, being able to open it again when the community are ready, the action taken is only very limited, over time we will relax our restrictions, we can't please everyone, etc-- all sound like soundbites from our politicians.

You should understand the difference between those who have moral convictions and those who do not, like most politicians.

Those who have convictions are like the Catholic Church, to use one example. Their position on abortion, no contraception, no gay bishops, no same sex marriage, etc is clear and unequivocal. It doesn't matter how many TNP articles are written, it doesn't matter if society is ready to move on, the church will not change their position in a million years.

And although some people deride them for it, their clear moral compass commands respect even from their critics.

Those without convictions of their own are those who say we will move when the rest of society is ready to move. They express no position of what is right or wrong, everything is a gray area to them, they have no mind of their own and are just trying to see which will get them the most votes.

So which are you?

You should realise that in this situation there are only 3 possibilities.

1. You are right and TNP is just sensationalising.

If so then the right course of action is to make no changes, state clearly what your position is and to write to TNP to complain about their unprofessionalism and sensationalism.

In other words, stand up for your moral convictions.

But you didn't do that.

2. You are wrong and TNP is right.

In that case you should admit you were wrong and write to TNP to explain that you were wrong.

That would show moral conviction, the courage to admit when you are wrong.

But you didn't do that either (unless your letter to the press is already on its way, in which case I take it back).

Having convictions doesn't mean you can never be wrong. South Africa was wrong about apartheid and they had the courage to admit it and to change. They did not say that racial discrimination is a gray area but the white community is now ready to move on, so we will no longer practise it. I can tell you a lot of white land owners and business owners were seriously unhappy about it, but this action shows moral conviction on the part of their new leaders.

But of course, if you knew you were wrong, it begs the question why you knowingly did something wrong for such a long time. Which means you had no moral convictions to guide you.

3. You were wrong but you didn't know about it till TNP highlighted it.

This implies you guys were asleep on the watch. I find that hard to believe with so many of you around.


So which is it?

To me it's clear that you guys have been pressured by the media and have no strength in your own convictions, if you had any.

That is what is so sad about today.

I know that in any group there's always bound to be differing opinions and thus the admins may have settled on the lowest common denominator as a compromise.

However, it shows basically that there's no strong leadership and no strong convictions and decisions are done by compromise according to what will get the most people on board.

If CS had, from Day 1 in its mission statement, said that we do not do nude shoots because we the admins are firmly against it, that would have won a lot of respect.

But to ban nude shoot advertisements as a result of a stupid TNP article doesn't command respect.

If only you had come out with a statement to say that nude photography, like nude painting and nude sculpture, is a legitimate form of art and CS sees nothing wrong with it. You can acknowledge that some amount of GWC behaviour is inevitable but you will try your best to educate the members and the public on the artistic nature of this genre of photography over time. You could even say that TNP chose to highlight only the sensationalistic aspects and chose to ignore the legitimate side of it, and that you are deeply disappointed by their report. You can even point out that anyone can walk to Geylang and pick up a girl for $50 if they just want to gawk or more.

But you chose not to do that. Instead you chose to ban nude shoots on CS and give pithy soundbites.

You chose to say that you are banning nude shoot ads because you want to avoid a sleazy reputation rather than saying nude photography is legitimate art and should continue but you will clean out the sleaze.

So it shows your lack of moral convictions.

With this long and detailed explanation I hope you understand why this is sad.

 

[night86mare]

That is what is sad.

i think what's sad is that no one is acknowledging that the mod and admin team are trying to do their best. i believe we all do (try to do our best, i mean). but you can never please anyone and everyone.

what happened to benefit of the doubt? i think it's more than just the new paper article, other members had consistently complained about clubsnap being clubsleaze. maybe i'm being too optimistic and idealistic, but from my experience at communication with some of the mod team at times, i would really like to think that despite many differences, they did take that into consideration.

at least i hope so. if this thing is really all because of the new paper article, then yes, it would be sad. otherwise, i'm sorry that i have to disagree with you.

 

[jeanie]

where is this discussion going?

admins has made their point.
They WILL stand by it.
If they change their minds, will they be deemed pressurized by members of CS to relight the fires of nude shoots?

move on people.

singapore is afterall, STILL a rather conservative society where the general public will still see nude as pornography, and people who does these shoots as 'ti ko pek'.

 

[Michael]

singapore is afterall, STILL a rather conservative society where the general public will still see nude as pornography, and people who does these shoots as 'ti ko pek'.

is this about conservative society or about quality in the forum? i thought it should be about the latter...

 

[night86mare]

is this about conservative society or about quality in the forum? i thought it should be about the latter...

it can never be all about the latter.

for example, if torturing dissenters to serve as an example ensured that the country would progress, and it did so effectively, are you sure that the country should do it?

 

[waileong]

Of course their decision is final. They own this place. Do you think it was ever a democracy?

But the mod specifically asked why we thought it was sad. I replied to let him know why. I don't believe he will accept what we say. But I hope he can now see how their actions are perceived.

Another mod also disagreed that they lacked moral conviction. I also replied to let him know why. Again I don't believe he will accept what we say. But again I hope he can now see how their actions are perceived.

Contrary to what some people say, I don't think the job of the admins or mods is difficult if they have a set of clear moral convictions. With a set of clear moral convictions, the decision to make in any situation is simple. You never worry about who you should please or how many people you will alienate. Your moral compass will always guide you.

A local example of someone with moral convictions is our MM. I don't like him now, but I respect him a lot because he was always very clear. He said it's never about popularity or what the public wants. He will do whatever he thinks is right for the country, according to his convictions, and if the voters don't like it, they can kick him out but he will never regret it.

Another example is the late JBJ. He never wavered in the face of overwhelming odds and huge financial losses.

That's moral conviction.

where is this discussion going?

admins has made their point.
They WILL stand by it.
If they change their minds, will they be deemed pressurized by members of CS to relight the fires of nude shoots?

move on people.

singapore is afterall, STILL a rather conservative society where the general public will still see nude as pornography, and people who does these shoots as 'ti ko pek'.

 

[jeanie]

is this about conservative society or about quality in the forum? i thought it should be about the latter...

it's actually both.
but do you think the public gives 2 damns about quality of the nude shoots?:dunno:

if i collect pornography, and if they are all artistically created/shot, will the law deem it as 'passable' and i wont be charged?

so tasteless nudes with pns snapshots will be slapped with fines and put behind bars?

we photographers know about what is quality and what isnt, what's artistic, and what's not.but, to the public whom the TNP reporter's target is, basically, they dont give a damn.

and i think that's where the grey area comes in.

where do we draw the line between art vs porn?
:dunno:

 

[entropy_h]

Those who have convictions are like the Catholic Church, to use one example. Their position on abortion, no contraception, no gay bishops, no same sex marriage, etc is clear and unequivocal. It doesn't matter how many TNP articles are written, it doesn't matter if society is ready to move on, the church will not change their position in a million years.

And although some people deride them for it, their clear moral compass commands respect even from their critics.

I suggest you don't bring in religion, and ironically, the Catholic Church, when one is talking about moral convictions and their "clear moral compass".