Comments on Pictures posted, lies or truths?

[TITANIUMLEE]

Bad Comments can be phrased in polite way as I think most people will not do that. And someone may look the photo suck but someone else may look the photo nice. When a person comment in a polite way then noone may not scold him/her because of their comment. So be polite.

 

[Stereobox]

A question to all fellow CS members, when you post pictures, not in the Critique Corner forum, do you want comments and criticisms?

I think if you do not want any comments and criticisms, especially criticisms, you should say so, “criticism not welcome”, then the critics would probably shut up. However, if you do not specifically stated criticism not welcome, we should be able to comment and criticize truthfully.

that, to the best of my understanding, has been the practice in Clubsnap all along.
poster has the right to request for "no criticisms".
thread viewers has the right to "comment and criticize truthfully", within the forum guidelines.

what's the question again?

I have noticed a very disturbing trend, and it’s getting worse. Many viewers, give praises to the most undeserved. The picture sucks and it’s still nice to them. There is this overly polite politically correct tendency to sugar coat criticisms. I found these kind of criticisms most ineffective, inefficient, and insulting at times. If the picture is really that bad, say it. If the hair is messy, the pose is unnatural, the facial expression is that horrible, the set does not make sense, say it truthfully so that the poster can learn and improve.

On the other hand, many posters do not want viewers’ true opinions. As long as the comments are positive, they are great comments. Whenever the viewers criticize, all sort of excuses come out. Messy hair inevitably gets the wind is strong excuse, goofy/horrible expressions will be rebutted by “It’s natural …”, and messed up sets become whimsical/it’s intended to be that way etc etc etc.

This phenomenon of “good comments only” applies not only to newbies, but to established professional photographers too.

With the posters and viewers playing hypocrites, how can we learn from our mistakes, how can we improve and build on our accomplishments.

who are we to prescibe the way how others "learn and improve"?
personally, i do not abide by the view that "DP-styled, harsh but honest" kind of critiques validate them as the only "proper" way of criticism. and certainly not the only "correct" interpretation. (i'm not quoting anyone, i'm just stating my opinion). please read on....

i, too, like you, believe in the right of free speech. and i also believe, with that freedom, comes great responsibility. the responsibility to oneself, first and foremost. as i've mentioned before, what we do, what we say, ultimately is a reflection of who we are, how we think.

as long we, doesn't matter as the picture poster or thread viewer, is able to handle that responsibility, the freedom is all ours.

how we choose our paths to 'photographic enlightenment', or how others think we should be led to that path, is ultimately a personal choice and opinion. if some prefers to be 'pampered' with soft comments, so be it. that's their responsibility, not ours to meddle.

i take it you wrote this post in the context of Clubsnap. you have stated correctly this is a public (more or less) forum. therefore, i would like to 'upz' again Wisp's post warning about the pitfalls of relying too much on "criticisms/critiques". ultimately, his is a message about awareness and keeping an open mind.

lastly, as a general opinion, we have to agree that there's a fine but distinct line between "opinion" and "critique".


like me, i'm sure there are many others here who are aware of your well-intended purpose in posting this thread. it isn't the first, and won't be the last. others have come and gone, e.g.this, which ironically, resulted in the formation of Critique Corner.

please continue to enjoy visiting the forums and looking forward to reading more interesting posts from you.

 

[Pablo]

I totally agree with what Stereobox wrote above.

My view......


Given the vast numbers of members, can it be expexted the everyone will fall into a pre-described line ?

If you went to a photography class, met some good friends there but there was one person that realy got up your nose....

Would you spend your time hammering that person, or would you enjoy and share your time with your friends.

We are not here (I think) to teach. We are here to help and assist and share.

 

[plastic]

With the posters and viewers playing hypocrites, how can we learn from our mistakes, how can we improve and build on our accomplishments.

Thanks for hitting the nail on the head.

 

[Ihsan Chua]

Talk about being totally ot of here.

Freedom of expression (I prefer to use the word expression over speech, no big deal) of course does not equate democracy. Freedm of expression is the most fundamental of all rights a human can demand and expect. Without freedom of expression, democracy cannot flourish.

"Human right means criminal rights" Yes, criminals have rights also. They have the right to a fair and impartial trial, they have the right to not be subject to cruel and unusual punishment, they, even if convicted, still hve the right to freedom of expression.

Are you advocating that criminals should be stripped of all human rights? No human being should ever be stripped of his/her human rights. Criminal or not.

I believe in freedom of speech totally. However, freedom of expression comes with responsibility as what is stated in one of the above posting. Have to consider the impact. This is called empathy. U happen to be one that expects a high standard for yourself. That is why u are different. But everyone is just diff. No one is created equal.

Criminals also have human rights. But it can also lead to criminal rights. I remember a few incidents reported in the newspaper abt US where a burglar sued the house owner when the house owner broke his leg during the burglaring process. He won the suit. Isn't that criminal rts.

Cannot remember that philosophers name. He said "Too much freedom leads to no freedom". How true it is if u consider to the extreme side of freedom.

However, I do agree with regards to the rule of no comments if they put it up not for comments, etc, etc. This forum is a place for pp to grow and be nourished with knowledge. I have never actively participated in any forum until now. I am growing and I hope that others will grow.

 

[jOhO]

actually i'd like pple like DP and student to be harsh with my work, because they really think about it and write it sincerely.

cmon.. DP hardly knows me. he has no reason to be hostile and rude with me, i've never offended him.

but to date, he's only critiqued one of my posts.. and those pple that have had the honour of his critique are complaining that he's rude? are they? actually come to think of it, it's the pple that SEE his posts that complain, more or less. so if i'm right, the people that "complains" about DP are those whose toes weren't stepped on by him directly? what gives?

as for giving critiques.. it's NOT EASY you know. given, using the word "nice" is not wrong, but perhaps saying WHY helps. and this is the part that is difficult. u gotta think about why u like the image, and then pen it down in english. this process is sometimes, very difficult.

aiyah, DP, just stop using the word "sux" lar.. anyway it's colloquialism... maybe ur language skills is in question here.. ahahahha ;p

 

[Pablo]

I believe in peoples rights; but to what extent they are used at times is questionable.

As an example. If I looked at a photo posted and commented that I thought it was nice, good, :thumbsup: , Pro .... or what ever,

It is what I feel from what my eyes see.

I don't believe a person should then bash my view and say I am wrong.

I am giving my reaction to the photo, no one else is using my eyes so how can they tell me what I see is wrong.

Also as far as posting with the "no criticisms" goes.

Ok I know that the person has the right to ask for no reply.
So, why post it in the first place ?

Please explain your views on "no criticisms"

 

[waileong]

"Criticism by nature is pointing out flaws"...

Although the word criticise has this kind of connotation, if you've studied subjects like literary criticism, or if you've worked as a film critic/book critic, etc. you'd know that criticism does just mean pointing out the flaws in other people's work per se. Criticism goes beyond just pointing out flaws.

 

[Deadpoet]

Pablo, we are all free to disagree. Deisgreement is a key for advancement and improvement.
I totally agree with you.

It is what I feel from what my eyes see.
I don't believe a person should then bash my view and say I am wrong.
I am giving my reaction to the photo, no one else is using my eyes so how can they tell me what I see is wrong.

Then, when are everyone up in arms about what my eys saw and whay my views are? Or unless, this curtesy applies only when I am praising and not when I am criticising?

Also as far as posting with the "no criticisms" goes. Ok I know that the person has the right to ask for no reply. So, why post it in the first place ?
Please explain your views on "no criticisms"

I have no idea why someone who is so afraid of comments will post on a public forum. Perhaps it's not the poster who has problems.
Maybe jOhO got it right.

actually come to think of it, it's the pple that SEE his posts that complain, more or less. so if i'm right, the people that "complains" about DP are those whose toes weren't stepped on by him directly? what gives?

Then I ask, why? The only reasons I can think of are I took a polarising viewpoints in an enviroment that conformity is deeply treasured,

 

[Pablo]

On the "no criticisms" bit.

If a photo is posted and has the words, "no criticisms" attached, even if I think the photo is awesome in every detail,
I don't feel that I should post my appreciation.

I am not easy to post compliments because of the words, "no criticisms".

But, if I am expected to reply, but with "no criticisms", shouldn't the person posting the photo have actually stated,
"no criticisms, only praise allowed" :dunno:

 

[student]

For the purpose of what we are trying to do here, I do not like the words "criticise/criticisms".

We are trying to help each other grow. That is the primary objective. Not freedom of expression.

There is a world of difference bewteen "To Critique" and "To Criticise".

"To Critique" is to offer a review or discussion critically. A "Critique" is therefore an evaluation of the image. There are critiques that evaluate the image as it stands, with no regards of context. This is legitimate. But there are those critiques that take into account the context. While I can give a critique to an image as it stands, I feel that in the context of CS with its varied membership with varied experiences, context is often important. Very important.

A "Critique" is not primarily meant to be negative. I have attended many great "Critique" sessions that convince me of the value of "Critiques". But I hesitate to partake in critiques" in CS forums. See following explanation.

The derivative of the word "Critique" ---- "Criticise" ----- is in its nature, negative. Finding faults. For this reason, I do not like the word "Criticise". Yes there are those who strive on "Criticisms". But there are more that are destroyed by "Criticisms".

My decision not to give open criticism is based on personal experience of how CS forums operate. There are enough of "ar****les" around that very often the exercise of a critique or offering suggestions in things photographic can turn out to be a waste of time.

I have no fear of making "enemies". But I do not want to waste my time on idiots.

It is not an issue of "paying the price". It is an issue of how I want to spend my time more profitably.

 

[espn]

Actually, what I feel is that, you folks are trying too hard to improve the forums.

Just let things be, if you cannot stand it, like me just avoid commenting and criticising (criticise=nitpick+flaws for me).

Else start your own forum with your own laws and rules on C&C.

80% are newbies (myself inclusive) and/or serious hobbyists, they just want to enjoy the photos, make new friends, have fun, share photos, get some mild feedback.

You folks need to take things easier... :sweatsm:

 

[Pablo]

Actually, what I feel is that, you folks are trying too hard to improve the forums.

Just let things be, if you cannot stand it, like me just avoid commenting and criticising (criticise=nitpick+flaws for me).

Else start your own forum with your own laws and rules on C&C.

80% are newbies (myself inclusive) and/or serious hobbyists, they just want to enjoy the photos, make new friends, have fun, share photos, get some mild feedback.

You folks need to take things easier... :sweatsm:

Pro words :thumbsup:
.
.
:bsmilie:

 

[Maltese]

I've been to so many forums and also do understand why some people wanted to be nice. This is especially true in international forums which if you state your nationality, you are more or less representing your country.

Westerners are in general more polite, Asians in general, wanted to be polite. Nevertheless westerners can be very frank and very subjective. There is no problem with me. But there will be silly people who "cannot see it open" or rather 看不开 (Kan Bu Kai - if your browser can't read Chinese character). In Chinese, it simply means that there are people who have to make things that they don't agree, an issue and certainly a big one.

Now there is nothing wrong with voicing out your opinion as that is basically yours. Its ok we don't share opinions eye to eye but they just wanted other people to concur with them by writting very subjective opinion that they naively think that its their principle. In fact principle and stubborness is only one line apart.


Whenever anyone posted a photo for any C&C, I will think that the poster is open to comments. Anyone at their right mind will know that if you want improvements, you need someone to point out your fault and highlight your strength. And of course politeness and frankness should be "administered" artfully. If not, you rather don't say anything about it. If you think that you are not a person who can take criticism, don't post. Just like myself, I never post my works for criticism but I learn through the hard way.

When I first started taking assignments, I do a very personal style shooting, it turns out that its not so well appreciated so I changed my style and people started to like them. I've also been commented by clients on how I should take my angles and uses what lens. Ended up they were wrong and I was right on occasions when I insist. This is a very prominent problem because what you see nice, others may not like. So even if the world says Ansel Adams works is godly, there will be Martians that says his sucks!


I also have this habit not to comment on any photos that already have a lot of comments because the poster is either more or less got carried away by the superficial comments, get mad by the comments (expecting praises) or already know what's best for him/herself. In the latter case, its good for him if there are good remarks, if not, it just doesn't say anything much too.

Photography, is an art, just like music. Like what Mozart says, music is a meaningless noise until it touches a receiving mind. My version is, opinion is just like an asshole, everyone has one. So next time you feel offended by any constructive criticisim, remember, its just the phrasing of the word, you get the point ultimately if are open as a receiving mind.

 

[Rev]

Actually, what I feel is that, you folks are trying too hard to improve the forums.

Just let things be, if you cannot stand it, like me just avoid commenting and criticising (criticise=nitpick+flaws for me).

Else start your own forum with your own laws and rules on C&C.

80% are newbies (myself inclusive) and/or serious hobbyists, they just want to enjoy the photos, make new friends, have fun, share photos, get some mild feedback.

You folks need to take things easier... :sweatsm:

so true.. unfortunately, I have to get mostof my feedback from another forum now. However, fortunately, I really appreciate the few who are willing to give honest crit or feedback that helped advance my photography even if it means arguing with them.....

 

[Sion]

Actually, what I feel is that, you folks are trying too hard to improve the forums.

Just let things be, if you cannot stand it, like me just avoid commenting and criticising (criticise=nitpick+flaws for me).

Else start your own forum with your own laws and rules on C&C.

80% are newbies (myself inclusive) and/or serious hobbyists, they just want to enjoy the photos, make new friends, have fun, share photos, get some mild feedback.

You folks need to take things easier... :sweatsm:

All the efforts are worth it for the other 20%.

Thanks to the vocal and concerned and critical few that we look at our works and others with a more discerning eye. We may not agree with them. We may find their words harsh. We have a good sob and pick up the camera again for another try every time somebody knocks us down.

Taking things easy is definitely not part of the culture of ClubSnap. We like it rough. We like it tough. And we like it hot and spicy. Just give it to us.

It's not about trying too hard. We are defeated once we give up even to try.

 

[Sion]

When i post pictures here, waiting for helpful critiques, i cant get any.
Left disappointed, i no longer post anything here but my mindless comments

To you your comments may be mindless.
To some of us they are full of mind.

 

[Stereobox]

Then, when are everyone up in arms about what my eys saw and whay my views are? Or unless, this curtesy applies only when I am praising and not when I am criticising?

Dear DP,

to my limited knowledge, my perception of your understanding and oft-practiced right of free speech includes the freedom to:
- choose the kind of language, words and tone of attitude used when expressing opinions/criticisms/critiques.

am i right? if so, please read on.



me, too, have gone many times when i go "what the F**K is this?"

especially my initial reaction to threads like these.

my reaction is perfectly legitimate, in accordance to your version of freedom of expression.



but i have chosen to reply, as i have my piece to say about this issue.

i do not know if you agree, or you agree to disagree....but i believe that freedom extends both ways - both to the 'giver', and the 'receiver' of the opinion/criticism/critique.

that is my understanding.

again....with power and freedom, comes great responsibility. i am responsible for what i do and say, how i represent myself and my views. i do not hide behind the shield of "i'm just practising free speech, what's wrong with it?"

i will be very sorry if you have failed to see it that way, and choose to regard other people's excercising their own right as being "why is everyone up in arms about what my eyes saw and what my views are?"


are you able to handle it?



interestingly, how about when the tables are turned around? when you are the one being praised, and not criticised.

i would be curious to know your reactions to comments/opinions like "nice pic!" to your own picture posts.

i believe your answer to this question would be a "key for advancement and improvement" in the continued discussion of the thread's topic.

 

[Deadpoet]

.....
i believe your answer to this question would be a "key for advancement and improvement" in the continued discussion of the thread's topic.

Dear stereobox,

According to your limited knowledge, you are correct. If I were not allowed to choose the kind of language, word, tone of attitude used in my posts, how would I have exercised my right to freedom of expression?

On your second point, you are absolutely wrong. The rights to freedom of expression lies only with the givers. The receivers of said expressions are passive in these instances. They have no right to interfer with the rights of the givers.

This is important, whether the receiver wants the opinions, critiques or criticisms or not, and let's use CS poster as a proxy for the receiver, it does not matter. By posting in CS, a public forum, public reaction should be expected.

I have no f**king idea what you are talking about ... " i'm just practising free speech, what's wrong with it?" Of course, I am responsible for what I say and do. Your point again?

I will be profoundly disappoited if other people do not react to what I say, to agree with everything I said (eventhough I know I am right and you are wrong). Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, nomatter how misguided they may be, and most important of all, to express them.

"Are you able to handle it?" Well, I have 2 responses. Of course, it's freedom of expression. I am exercising my rights to express what is right, and you have the rights to express what you think is right. Actually, I am handling it well. Who are not handling it well at all are all my detractors, who believes freedom of expression is of course paramont as long as the expression is tolling the party line.

One more thing, your reacton is perfectly legitimate, as the freedom of expression will guaranty it, however misguided you may be.

 

[Stereobox]

Dear stereobox,

According to your limited knowledge, you are correct. If I were not allowed to choose the kind of language, word, tone of attitude used in my posts, how would I have exercised my right to freedom of expression?

good, thank you. i was trying to establish a common foothold in which discussion could commence.

On your second point, you are absolutely wrong. The rights to freedom of expression lies only with the givers. The receivers of said expressions are passive in these instances. They have no right to interfer with the rights of the givers.

seriously flawed. in this case, why have you reacted to my freedom of expression, instead of being passive?

also, does that mean....givers will always be givers, and receivers always be on the receiving end?

now i seriously question your understanding of the freedom of expression, the right of free speech - issues which you have often brought up time and time again in the forums.

This is important, whether the receiver wants the opinions, critiques or criticisms or not, and let's use CS poster as a proxy for the receiver, it does not matter. By posting in CS, a public forum, public reaction should be expected.

a public reaction that comes from individual efforts. not a validation or platform for personal attacks.

I have no f**king idea what you are talking about ... " i'm just practising free speech, what's wrong with it?" Of course, I am responsible for what I say and do. Your point again?

to highlight the distinct line between being responsible, n having what it takes to be responsible....and merely saying it.

the paragraph in which you extracted my quote is to be read in its entire context.

I will be profoundly disappoited if other people do not react to what I say, to agree with everything I said (eventhough I know I am right and you are wrong). Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, nomatter how misguided they may be, and most important of all, to express them.

it is even more profoundly disappointing and disturbing, when people react to what you say, agree with everything you say, no matter how misguided you are. just quoting an example of the dangers of misguided freedom of expression.

"Are you able to handle it?" Well, I have 2 responses. Of course, it's freedom of expression. I am exercising my rights to express what is right, and you have the rights to express what you think is right. Actually, I am handling it well. Who are not handling it well at all are all my detractors, who believes freedom of expression is of course paramont as long as the expression is tolling the party line.

pardon my correction, but you are exercising your rights to express what you think is right. likewise for me.

who are these detractors you so often speak about? and so what if they believe in freedom of expression as long they are "playing safe and nice". who are you to tell them what to think? isn't that tantamount to playing dictator? the very irony.

as such, i believe your idea of "handling it well" is very much different from mine.

One more thing, your reacton is perfectly legitimate, as the freedom of expression will guaranty it, however misguided you may be.

likewise.

"interestingly, how about when the tables are turned around? when you are the one being praised, and not criticised.

i would be curious to know your reactions to comments/opinions like "nice pic!" to your own picture posts.

i believe your answer to this question would be a "key for advancement and improvement" in the continued discussion of the thread's topic."

i repeat the above paragraphs highlighted in bold, cited in previous post.

if you so decide to response, i humbly suggest lets not distract from the original thread, and answer in context of the original post


thank you