Comments directed to models, why not.

[weg]

let's face it, most people only like to listen to honey coated words.

It takes humility and professionalism to accept criticisms. How many of us here fall into this category? And we wonder how come our photography skills are not improving. I'm one of them.

 

[Deadpoet]

:think: but do you also not acknowledge that not everybody might be as open-minded as you? i mean, we're talking about people here. not everybody is a Deadpoet.

well, perhaps i misunderstood his point. what of my misunderstanding then. do you think it is being a little overly paranoid that some people might actually take these online exchanges too seriously and take offense to the extent of migrating the "quarrel" to real life? i do think it is not impossible. so perhaps because of the possibility of such a thing happening, it is only natural to enforce a blanket cordoning off of such comments and making them taboo.

So, some or many people here are not open minded. And the world should lowered their standard to accommodate? What have this place become?

As to your second comment, if we are doing that, we might all become hermit and never leave our house. McD delivers.

To enforce blanket restrictions as you suggested, we might as well move to a Marxist state.

 

[Rashkae]

I think what's very important to note is that many photogs immediately say "no comments on the model!!!" even if you just say "But honestly, the model CMI". I mean seriously... If the model is really unattractive and thus detracts from the rest of the image, by all means, say so. SUBJECT is one aspect of any good picture, and thus is a valid target of critique. Maybe calling her "auntie" is inappropriate, but IMHO saying something like "Your lighting is beautiful, your wardrobe is perfect, but the model doesn't do it justice" is FAIR. Many SG photogs are too obsessed on the technical... What lens was used, is the histogram right, is the exposure and white balance perfect, etc. A picture is usually only critiqued on it's technical aspects here rather than the image as a complete whole.

 

[night86mare]

i thot ur ques was directed at DP?
why the about face n say not everyone is a Deadpoet?

i'm am pointedly ignoring this blatant lack of logic.

i also take the opportunity to apologise if you feel offended by any previous post i have made. it is bad if you feel that way.

 

[night86mare]

So, some or many people here are not open minded. And the world should lowered their standard to accommodate? What have this place become?

As to your second comment, if we are doing that, we might all become hermit and never leave our house. McD delivers.

To enforce blanket restrictions as you suggested, we might as well move to a Marxist state.

well, it's only realistic. there are reasons why laws are put in place. slander, racism, you might as well say that all these can be accepted if everybody is open-minded enough. but certain borderlines have to be drawn based on the time and place. i would love to see a mature state of mind, but just look at what happens, i pass comment on other members' behaviour, straight away look at the attitude. they like taking personal offense leh, this just further proves my point.

no choice, actually. and i won't see this as any form of marxism - but we digress.

 

[pai]

so are we talking about that particular thread, or about a blanket ban on model comments?

if it's about the "aunty" thread, the comment wasn't particularly polite or constructive. does it mean such comments should be disallowed? discouraged - maybe. disagreed with - sure, if you really disagree. but censored? hmm.

if it's a blanket thing about don't comment on model in portrait shoot... why? we can say kid so cute, food so yummy, model so chio -- why cannot say model don't look good? perhaps because you don't want to hurt the model's feelings -- but that's not a reason that's photography related is it?

if you're trying to produce a picture of a hot girl, and someone say the girl looks fat, or old, or tired -- it could mean you need -- better lighting? better posing? different model? more quality control for the pix you choose to pose?

sure, some of the comments may not be phrased in that way. and some of them may be wrong. but you more interested in improving your pictures or in arguing with people?

 

[night86mare]

so are we talking about that particular thread, or about a blanket ban on model comments?

if it's about the "aunty" thread, the comment wasn't particularly polite or constructive. does it mean such comments should be disallowed? discouraged - maybe. disagreed with - sure, if you really disagree. but censored? hmm.

if it's a blanket thing about don't comment on model in portrait shoot... why? we can say kid so cute, food so yummy, model so chio -- why cannot say model don't look good? perhaps because you don't want to hurt the model's feelings -- but that's not a reason that's photography related is it?

if you're trying to produce a picture of a hot girl, and someone say the girl looks fat, or old, or tired -- it could mean you need -- better lighting? better posing? different model? more quality control for the pix you choose to pose?

sure, some of the comments may not be phrased in that way. and some of them may be wrong. but you more interested in improving your pictures or in arguing with people?

moved on liao bro.

well, don't you think that kid so cute, food so yummy, also not photography related? that is my point. i think if yamapi had gone on to elaborated there and then about why he commented what he commented, it would not have reflected so badly on him.

read my earlier posts, it is precisely because it is the photograph in question, not the model. who cares if the model is fat? who cares if the food is yummy? as a photographer posting my pictures online, do i care what you think about the elements in the picture?

 

[pai]

moved on liao bro

you might have, but not everyone in this thread has

well, don't you think that kid so cute, food so yummy, also not photography related?

what i was saying was that not commenting on the model out of consideration for her feelings was not a photography related reason. (doesn't mean it's a bad reason btw.)

i think if someone says kid so cute, food so yummy, it means that the photographer has succeeded to some extent in bringing out the cuteness... yumminess... of the subject. sounds photography related to me.

that is my point. i think if yamapi had gone on to elaborated there and then about why he commented what he commented, it would not have reflected so badly on him.

so are we talking about the yamapi comment or about the blanket no comment on model thing? if we're not talking about him in particular for this thread maybe we can make a conscious effort not to bring him up again in order to reduce confusion

it is precisely because it is the photograph in question, not the model. who cares if the model is fat? who cares if the food is yummy? as a photographer posting my pictures online, do i care what you think about the elements in the picture?

i care if the food looks yummy, or if the model looks fat (esp if i'm not trying to make the model look fat!). because i care about whether or not i'm succeeding in making the photograph i want to make.

someone can say to you: your model look fat. someone else can say to you: your choice of camera angle makes the model look fat. the second comment is more helpful than the first. but both comments are comments about your photograph. and if you think about the first one, it might still help -- because at least it tells you there's something not working about your picture (i am assuming you aren't trying to make a picture of a fat person. just an e.g. lah, i have nothing against fat people -- i am a fat person )

teach the critic to say your technique make model look fat instead of saying eh model fat, and you develop the critic. (maybe in the long run this critic will help develop the photographer)

teach the photographer to hear "your model is fat" and wonder "hmm why my model look fat?", and you develop the photographer.

both work right? and i like the second one because a) more direct route to improving the photographer, b) no need to make a new rule about what can and cannot be said.
but even though i like one more than the other, who says cannot have both right.

one last detour: i'm bothered by blanket statements about "you cannot say this". if it's wrong, contradict it. if it's right, acknowledge it. why say that it can't be said?

if you feeling free, can read this piece on what you can't say... it's quite interesting

 

[mrchua]

To be frank the model does look "aunty" in the picture.

To be fair (also so I don't get banned), I will justify why.

I took a look at the model's blog and she looks vastly different compared to the pictures posted in the thread where she looks tired and much older (I thought she was 30 in one of the picture). Of course the term "aunty" is subjective too because to some 30 may be aunty while to others it's still XMM teritory so I believe it's fair game.

I don't think it matters whose fault it is - the photographer's or the model's, that's not the issue here, the photo is represented as such and I'm just calling it like it is.

I don't think it is a personal attack on anyone. The comments were directed at the model's photo and not her. I'd agree with mattlock that even beautiful people can look really bad in some pictures. I'd like to think I'm such a case but most people probably won't agree here. :dunno:

Same thing with criticism, while I respect the need to be civil, I don't think we need to hold back on being harsh with criticism as long as it's constructive. We can always choose to ignore a critique we don't like right? Personally, I know I can't take the harsh critique from the pros here so I chose to stay out of the kitchen. ;p

wahaha bro u can be politician liao..

i'm still new to this forum and photography in general, but i guess alittle criticism in a constructive way is better than leaving nothing said. when people care, people will comment and advise. its only when they've given up then nothing will be said. so we should be glad that everyone cares in this forum! haha..

i felt canonised was just being protective of his model over a remark that wasn't very complimentary (and potentially hurtful to a young girl), so if we can put ourselves in his shoes and see where's he coming from, its understandable that he "chided" the person who made teh "aunty" remark.
however, if we take a look at the picture and feel that it looks kinda "aunty", our natural instinct is to express our views isn't it. i didn't think the comment was derogatory, but maybe it was the other posts after that that led to a ban.

i think its kinda weird to have a forum and yet have over stringent rules as to what you can comment on and what you can't. if a blanket ban on comments on models were set in place, i really don't think many of us will have much to say because some of us may not be that technically sound (well i speak for myself) to be confident enough to comment about all things technical and only related to the artistic concepts and skill of photography. freedom of speech please, this is the internet. but remember to be civilised, we're human beings, not baboons. courtesy is the best policy.

 

[Kongo]

The point is to practice some common sense and mutual respect when you are commenting on a picture. It does not mean that you have to turn your negative thoughts into praises, but as in real life, we will gotta watch our tone, mind the words and be tactful..

Everyday, there are tons of comments on the models here.. those that got censored are those with tones or choice of words that are not appreciated by general public.

I just cannot stand these attempts to come up examples that do not apply. Common sense guys. How does commenting on a picture be compared to the example refer to above?

If you think, then you will see the fallacies.

Any attempt to censor comments and criticisms is a slippery slope that we should not even contemplate crossing. Yesterday was those rent-a-cop stopping us shooting at (please fill in the blank) ... today, we do not allow comments on the models, if the comment is negative, what next tomorrow?

 

[Sion]

...how i wished i have the honour of getting to know u.
u displayed maturity n grace beyond ur age.

Maybe Yamapi should learn from you? :bsmilie:

 

[Jix]

I just cannot stand these attempts to come up examples that do not apply. Common sense guys. How does commenting on a picture be compared to the example refer to above?

If you think, then you will see the fallacies.

Any attempt to censor comments and criticisms is a slippery slope that we should not even contemplate crossing. Yesterday was those rent-a-cop stopping us shooting at (please fill in the blank) ... today, we do not allow comments on the models, if the comment is negative, what next tomorrow?

Im on DP's side on this one... Comments directed to the model is fair. Why not?

And I cannot understand why people can be banned for saying such comments. Im not sayng I agree with what yamapi has said but beeing banned for his comments is crazy.

 

[entropy_h]

with the model in question saying this,
can the Mod reinstate yamapi?

don't usually like to know XMM,
but in ur case,
how i wished i have the honour of getting to know u.
u displayed maturity n grace beyond ur age.
its a compliment BTW

Fantasy #1.

Hi Xiaoting:

I am just curious..
Do you think "Aunty" is a fair statement being made to the image?
I mean strictly to the image only, I know you are sweet and lovely in real person.

With Regards
SKY

Fantasy #2.

 

[entropy_h]

Im on DP's side on this one... Comments directed to the model is fair. Why not?

And I cannot understand why people can be banned for saying such comments. Im not sayng I agree with what yamapi has said but beeing banned for his comments is crazy.

Has he actually been banned? Or are we speculating here?

 

[Jix]

Has he actually been banned? Or are we speculating here?

He has been 'deregistered' as far as I know for his 'auntie' comments. Or maybe Im wrong.

 

[hazmee]

I thought...
I gave comments because I felt there was something good or bad about the photo regardless who or what I am commenting.

But come to think of it...
Comments or critiques are usually a double-edged sword no matter how diplomatic or polite you put it.

Then again...
People are free to decide what is best for then.

To conclude...
Life is much simpler if we lower down our egos, have a clear vision and open our hearts. Sounds like a simple request but difficult to achieve in 'real' life.

 

[Canonised]

He has been 'deregistered' as far as I know for his 'auntie' comments. Or maybe Im wrong.

IMO, this statement is rather misleading and unfair to the Mods :nono: .....

This is the reason from the MOd >>>

The user yamapi have been deregistered.

Though he has been deregistered before (under dotaboy and aqillies) for personal comments against other members and also models. We allowed him to continue in this forum under his new nick "yamapi" and hoping he stop his mischief. It seems that he has not changed and persist in such act. All in all he has been given 3 chances.

Hi Xiaoting:

I am just curious..
Do you think "Aunty" is a fair statement being made to the image?
I mean strictly to the image only, .............

This was her reply (obviously she treated that as a personal attack ) :dunno:

i need to agree that compliments are given when due, but personal attacks on the model?
hmmmm

 

[vince123123]

Good comment, and very objective. Reading it in this light, it is clear that everyone has seen photos where Xiaoting looks good and all, just that that particular photo or whatever was alleged to be "aunty". Hence this falls squarely within the third and fourth paragraphs in Waileong's post.

The intent of not commenting on models in general is quite simple: they are what they are. If they are not pretty, it's not their fault, they weren't born pretty.

Hence the perception that it's not fair to comment on their looks.

However, if someone could be pretty but chose not to do so, eg dark eye circles, poor dress sense, eyebags, poor makeup, etc. then I don't see why one can't comment.

And the model must understand, the comment is not about her being ugly, it's about her lack of dress sense, her styling, her professionalism as a model.

An ugly person will always be ugly. She knows it, your comment won't change anything, it's a waste of time.

However, comments about styling should be made as it is directed as much at the photographer as it is at the model.

 

[vince123123]

"wa, this model looks very slutty" - you can say this if its rephrased to "wa, this model looks very slutty in this photo" - this is a true representation of your opinion and it will be up to you to later elaborate, justify it if people challenge your opinion. Although this isn't a real issue even without amendment.

"this model looks like a transvesite, are you sure she's female?" - only the first part of the comment is acceptable. "are you sure she's female" has nothing to do with the photograph and is now casting aspersions on the model, and not how she looks in the photograph.

"this model looks like a prostitute i saw in geylang the other day, are you sure she's not a prostitute?" - same as for the 2nd statement, the second half has nothing to do with how she looks in the phtoograph. As for the earlier statement, that should be okay provided you can show a photograph of the prostitute you saw in Geylang for comparison. It is the same as saying "Hey this model looks like Lin Chi Lin (the model)" or the like.

However, without further substantiation, the comment only serves to say "Hey she could be a prostitute" and has nothing to do with how the model looks in photograph, or hte photograph itself, and provides grounds for a possible defamatory comment.

Hence, your analogies or attempts to bait DP are all off the mark.

so you happened to post up one of your model pictures, and i came in and said

"wa, this model looks very slutty", and i really feel that it is so, you would take it coolly?

and then if you take it coolly, the next time i will say "this model looks like a transvesite, are you sure she's female?"

and the next time, i will say "this model looks like a prostitute i saw in geylang the other day, are you sure she's not a prostitute?"

if the comment is negative, indeed, what next tomorrow?

i think you miss kongo's point - the point i think he is driving at is that what happens on the internet, can unfortunately spill over into real life. you don't know kids these days, i have heard of some bunch of ah bengs beating up another person because they found out that he was the person who had been insulting them online in one of those games.

 

[Jix]

IMO, this statement is rather misleading and unfair to the Mods :nono: .....

This is the reason from the MOd >>>

Im not sure how my statement can be misleading. As far as I know he was deregistered because of his comments on your thread. What he did before under a different name is another story. Some people chose to sugar-coat their comments, he chose not to and he paid the consequence (if you call it that) by being 'deregistered'.

If this is the reason given, I think it's more unfair to him to be judged on what he did before. I dont know this guy and as I have said before, I dont agree with what he did, but I just dont agree with the mods either.