Comments directed to models, why not.

[zero o]

Model who pose for pictures should be fair game, theoretically. In practice however, this presents another time bomb for CS. If CS allows comments on model's looks , then i can see threads potentially degenerating into a free for all and eventually a tit for tat situation will ensue amongst members over time.

In a mature, controlled and professional environment, I can see the value of comments on all aspects, model's looks included. However, in the present CS environment where everyone & anyone can comment, it is perhaps best to be conservative in the interest of preserving harmony amongst members.

I am not implying that CS members are not mature/ professional .. most are mature and professional, but in every environment, there is bound to exist some who are not and it is these few individuals who normally spoil it for the rest.

..

 

[waileong]

Didn't Old Lee used to say that to justify how he governed?

Model who pose for pictures should be fair game, theoretically. In practice however, this presents another time bomb for CS. If CS allows comments on model's looks , then i can see threads potentially degenerating into a free for all and eventually a tit for tat situation will ensue amongst members over time.

In a mature, controlled and professional environment, I can see the value of comments on all aspects, model's looks included. However, in the present CS environment where everyone & anyone can comment, it is perhaps best to be conservative in the interest of preserving harmony amongst members.

I am not implying that CS members are not mature/ professional .. most are mature and professional, but in every environment, there is bound to exist some who are not and it is these few individuals who normally spoil it for the rest.

..

 

[Churchwolf]

The bottom line, whether commenting on the model is right or wrong, is that rude and offensive commentary benefits nobody. Claiming that a model "looks aunty" is a completely rubbish statement that can only offend, whether it is intended that way or not. It is the sole responsiblity of the person posting to be tactful and constructive in their praise/criticism. Anything less is completely unacceptable.

 

[sORe-EyEz]

post 22# by waileong is irrelevant.

but i personally agree that disagreeing to agree is a society maturing.

 

[ortega]

post 22# by waileong is irrelevant.

but i personally agree that disagreeing to agree is a society maturing.

i think you mean agreeing to disagree

 

[sORe-EyEz]

i think you mean agreeing to disagree

but if TS is agreeing to disagree then wouldn't this thread not be started? :dunno:

 

[ortega]

just refer to the "ClubSNAP's Updated Terms of Use"

you will notice

1. Be Nice and Be Civilised - abusing, name-calling, personal attacks on members and/or generally trying to stir up trouble will not be tolerated. Be kind to newbies as they may not know the general flow of the forums. Repeatedly violation of this rule will result in banishment.

5. Flaming / Personal Attacks - We will not tolerate abusive, malicious, personal attacks or self-promoting messages. Please refer to Rule #1. Repeated abuse will result in banishment.

6. Trolls - We will not tolerate anyone antagonising other forum members by posting potentially inflammatory messages. See Rule #1. Repeated abuse will result in banishment. Do not participate in a thread merely to criticize or mock the equipment choice of other forum members in the thread. Examples include Nikon shooters posting in Canon topic areas, Canon shooters posting in Nikon topic areas and anyone posting in any topic area where the result can serve only to insult and inflame regular participants in that topic area.

and

7. Harassment - Harassment of other forum members via Private Message, postings, emails or other means will result in immediate banishment and if serious enough, may be reported to the relevant authorities for their further investigation.

this and your maturity should be enough to guide you in all postings, yes even in this thread

 

[ortega]

but if TS is agreeing to disagree then wouldn't this thread not be started? :dunno:

i mean in your context, the ability to agree to disagree and respect each other's view
is a sign of maturity

 

[sORe-EyEz]

i mean in your context, the ability to agree to disagree and respect each other's view
is a sign of maturity

yap, something like that. :sweatsm: 1 cannot always expect others to change his/her views just because they're at odds with 1s own.

but its good debate anyway, just dun be at each other's neck... :sweat:

okie, back to topic.

 

[night86mare]

yap, something like that. :sweatsm: 1 cannot always expect others to change his/her views just because they're at odds with 1s own.

but its good debate anyway, just dun be at each other's neck... :sweat:

okie, back to topic.

well, agreeing to disagree is surely, a sign of maturity - but this can only happen when full exchange of ideas has occured. you can't just have a situation where

A says Z
B says Y

and they don't even present their point of view, and just walk off agreeing to disagree. that doesn't constitute maturity to me, that constitutes something like.. i won't know.. perhaps weird actions. :bsmilie: well i think in all fairness the discussion here has been relatively mature so far.. but i do wish dp would reply.. otherwise this thread will vanish by the time i come back from the trip i'm embarking on tomorrow.

 

[Leong23]

Why no one commented on Sion's model??? :dunno:

 

[night86mare]

Why no one commented on Sion's model??? :dunno:

we all love Sion.

in every single one of us, there is a SION

waiting to get out and release his primal energy!

 

[sORe-EyEz]

well, agreeing to disagree is surely, a sign of maturity - but this can only happen when full exchange of ideas has occured. you can't just have a situation where

A says Z
B says Y

and they don't even present their point of view, and just walk off agreeing to disagree. that doesn't constitute maturity to me, that constitutes something like.. i won't know.. perhaps weird actions. :bsmilie: well i think in all fairness the discussion here has been relatively mature so far.. but i do wish dp would reply.. otherwise this thread will vanish by the time i come back from the trip i'm embarking on tomorrow.

huh, so Ortega got it wrong ah? :sweat: i dun have much of the brain to debate so just sit-on-the-fence.

i personally think many aspects make up a pic, but a model in it gets most attention as its the most obvious. lighting, make-up, background, model's experience, photographer's vision, etc make or break a pic. so some dofeelcomments weighed unfairly on the model.

 

[night86mare]

huh, so Ortega got it wrong ah? :sweat: i dun have much of the brain to debate so just sit-on-the-fence.

i personally think many aspects make up a pic, but a model in it gets most attention as its the most obvious. lighting, make-up, background, model's experience, photographer's vision, etc make or break a pic. so some dofeelcomments weighed unfairly on the model.

not really, i was just adding on, i doubt he'd agree with the scenario i posted either it would be a boring world if everyone just said - ok you are entitled to your opinion and let's just leave it at that, there is no right and wrong and we can all be hello kitty and keropi and dear daniel.

what i meant was, there was a difference between agreeing to disagree without having given your viewpoints first - there are certain things in life that are just life views. for example, no amount of argument is going to resolve views over whether a person who killed in self-defence should be punished or not. that area is so grey, there are so many examples for each side of the argument that indeed, acknowledging that this is indeed the case and letting it go at that IS maturity.

so far, i'm not exactly sure what DP meant, i think he sort of misunderstood what i meant too, so waiting on his reply, it won't be fair to either party if we really just left it at that, though sometimes i do wish it could be that way.

:bsmilie:

 

[ortega]

in a perfect world, both parties will present their views and reasons
and if they cannot convince/persuade the other party to see things their way
then they should agree to disagree

in fact everyone has different opinions and views, that is what makes this world an interesting place
just don't get so worked up about views and opinions

 

[mattlock]

certainly, but this being a photographic forums, and i stress, the photographer isn't actually putting up a contest to see whose model is prettier, where does a comment like "model is auntie" come in? what purpose does it serve, what place does it have, and what constructive value does it have in being in existence here?

you of all people should know this, i enjoy some of your series precisely because it is of aunties, of grannies, more than just a pretty face. it is also shot well. there are probably 8 million photographs of poorly shot grannies and aunties; more than that i'm sure, i just threw in an arbitrarily huge number.

definitely, a model is part and parcel of a p&p photograph involving herself - and i'm more than certain that there are models who are more than willing to take positive or negative critique on themselves. but that isn't quite the point is it? surely i'm not ringfencing or promoting the idea that models are above critique, but the point here is that this is not the time or place to do it, i think it is immensely rude to the photographer who's been posting up his work because while he can control certain factors, and as you point out, maybe it is indeed related to styling - then won't you agree that a fairer and more measured comment would be that the "styling makes her look auntie"?

ever since i came into clubsnap i have seen many people (to be honest, dp is one of them) posting that "this is not the model's fault, this is the photographer's fault", and this is my point here. and i must say i am curious about why deadpoet is the first one to take issue here. after all, he seems to be an advocate of the idea that how any photograph turns out is ultimately still controlled by the photographer. opening up avenues whereby you can just simply point the finger at the model is ludicrous to me, it's like saying that if i take an extremely horribly done landscape photograph it is the land's fault, not mine. but i can DO things to improve what the output is like; and if the output is HORRIBLE no matter what i do, then perhaps i should not even keep the photograph, and trash it like dp always loves to say. :devil: so this is why i think all comments with regards to model should be off-limits, if she looks tired, then maybe the photographer should take the shots and not post them because they are not good. ultimately opening the table to model comments seems like a convenient excuse to breed a mentality where photographers can just blame models for any of their shortcomings.

next up:

"bro, your photograph, too much depth of field, shoot with wider aperture."

"aiya not my fault la, the model wear until like that, must shoot with more background!"

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

It's very simple
If your intention is to take a flattering picture of someone, it's usually quite simple for another photographer to see straight away whether the photo is flattering or not
Whether a person says someone looks "aunty" or whether he beats around the bush about it, the fact is that the person does not look good in the picture.
You have to separate real life from photographic 2-dimensional objects
When a person gets photographed he or she becomes a 2-dimensional object.
Any comment directed towards the subject in the picture should be taken in such a way: that the person in the photo is now an object separate from the person in real life.

We are all aware that how we look in photos can be quite different from how we look in real life depending on the moment we are photographed.

It would be best to learn to take comments less personally when it comes to photographs, I think that no matter how people phrase their reactions to a photo there is some worth in what they say.

 

[night86mare]

It's very simple
If your intention is to take a flattering picture of someone, it's usually quite simple for another photographer to see straight away whether the photo is flattering or not
Whether a person says someone looks "aunty" or whether he beats around the bush about it, the fact is that the person does not look good in the picture.
You have to separate real life from photographic 2-dimensional objects
When a person gets photographed he or she becomes a 2-dimensional object.
Any comment directed towards the subject in the picture should be taken in such a way: that the person in the photo is now an object separate from the person in real life.

We are all aware that how we look in photos can be quite different from how we look in real life depending on the moment we are photographed.

It would be best to learn to take comments less personally when it comes to photographs, I think that no matter how people phrase their reactions to a photo there is some worth in what they say.

that is fair enough, i accept your points.

 

[jOhO]

i'm probably being banal, but such are reasons why i stopped commenting on portraits.

real critiques and comments are done in private, imho.

msn / pm / email / sms / phone / in person

 

[peapilot]

To be frank the model does look "aunty" in the picture.

To be fair (also so I don't get banned), I will justify why.

I took a look at the model's blog and she looks vastly different compared to the pictures posted in the thread where she looks tired and much older (I thought she was 30 in one of the picture). Of course the term "aunty" is subjective too because to some 30 may be aunty while to others it's still XMM teritory so I believe it's fair game.

I don't think it matters whose fault it is - the photographer's or the model's, that's not the issue here, the photo is represented as such and I'm just calling it like it is.

I don't think it is a personal attack on anyone. The comments were directed at the model's photo and not her. I'd agree with mattlock that even beautiful people can look really bad in some pictures. I'd like to think I'm such a case but most people probably won't agree here. :dunno:

Same thing with criticism, while I respect the need to be civil, I don't think we need to hold back on being harsh with criticism as long as it's constructive. We can always choose to ignore a critique we don't like right? Personally, I know I can't take the harsh critique from the pros here so I chose to stay out of the kitchen. ;p

 

[khtee]

To be frank the model does look "aunty" in the picture.

To be fair (also so I don't get banned), I will justify why.

I took a look at the model's blog and she looks vastly different compared to the pictures posted in the thread where she looks tired and much older (I thought she was 30 in one of the picture). Of course the term "aunty" is subjective too because to some 30 may be aunty while to others it's still XMM teritory so I believe it's fair game.

I don't think it matters whose fault it is - the photographer's or the model's, that's not the issue here, the photo is represented as such and I'm just calling it like it is.

I don't think it is a personal attack on anyone. The comments were directed at the model's photo and not her. I'd agree with mattlock that even beautiful people can look really bad in some pictures. I'd like to think I'm such a case but most people probably won't agree here. :dunno:

Same thing with criticism, while I respect the need to be civil, I don't think we need to hold back on being harsh with criticism as long as it's constructive. We can always choose to ignore a critique we don't like right? Personally, I know I can't take the harsh critique from the pros here so I chose to stay out of the kitchen. ;p

I agree with you!