ClubSNAP is no longer a photography site

[tbk]

A company making use Clubsnap as a free online forum to promote its products or to conduct mass ordering. Can the company be morally responsible to pass on some of its revenue towards the running of the web site?

the funding generated can be used in ways to promote the hobby?

 

[Godzilla Invades]

When ClubSNAP first started, we had folks like chngpe01 and tomshen posting fabulous, breath-taking shots every other week for all of us to marvel at, critique on and learn from. We also had some talented members who took critique in the right stride and made huge improvements in their art over time. Those were the days when I felt that this WAS the photography forum to be in, and the standard of photography here WAS comparable to other forums. I even took part in numerous photo workshops/outings organized by fellow members in the spirit of sharing experience and social networking. I even got to make some endearing friendships with several members here (you know who you are).

Well spoken on some areas but everyone knows this is a public forum. The reason some pros conduct courses and classes is because some members are interested to learn from their experience they have gain throughout the years. If you actually notice, the mods are still giving good comments on newbies who posted their photos.

You will be surprise that some of the moderators from CS actually took up courses which I personnaly attended as well. In fact not only that I learn a lot from this courses which I attended but I did see a great improvement from other members. This is Singapore. Nothing is free in this world.

"In the spirit of sharing and experience, you need to PAY as well"

Oh yes, before I forget did you join any of the courses which was advertise in CS? Let us know where you acquire your photography skills from.

As stated if you are not happy with this area of Workshop which is stated "Sign up for PAID workshops & shoots." then don't go in if you are not willing to pay. How am I suppose to know if any of the photographers from CS conduct courses? What, sign language? Or some kinda of special codes which you need to break them in order to know the courses?

I can tell you that attending courses benefits everyone and anyone who is willing to PAY to learn. What do you want? Goverment grants?

What do you expect? Learning from people and pay them peanuts? Who is to judge whether the photographer who is conducting the course is an amatuer or a pro? Anyone and everyone is allowed to conduct courses and classes but how much benefit will the members get to learn. Maybe you should conduct one yourself and see what we can learn from you for FREE.

But look at what the forum has become today. It is more a classified ads site than anything else.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the Buy & Sell forum. It's a great place to trade equipment and the recent moves by ClubSNAP admin to regulate the threads are extremely commendable. But what I am against are the blatant, loud and annoying advertisements in the workshops forum. If all these courses were organized by fellow ClubSNAP members (or more specifically, amateurs) I have no objections. A lot of commercial photographers are coming here to make free advertisements. This really irks me. If the ad posters post these ads in the spirit of learning together and they can make a little coffee money out of it, why not. But if it's just for pure commercial interests (no longer coffee money), I say GO AWAY.

I am also sad that the standard of photography here is nowhere comparable to those I see at PBase. It seems odd that the humongously large number of members in this forum cannot even compete with PBase standard? (I'm not even talking about those top standard pics) Makes me wonder what those rich fellows here who seem to have the most expensive of equipment, lenses etc buy them for. Which brings me to what the equipment forums have become.

Standard? What standard? ISO 9002 or 14001? This is art. There is no standard at all. I agree totally with ESPN what he said earlier. This is meant for everybody. It sounds like you have to be a pro to put in your photos. If you put in a lousy photo does not mean the standard has drop. It shows some people have guts to post their photos and get valuable critic from all members in CS.

I am applauding the Admins for doing a great job in controlling the B&S forum so it will not be so messy.

Commercial? What commercial? Did I see any advertising banners or pop ups in CS? Very blunt of you to say "GO AWAY" So ask this people to go away, then who teach me? You hah? Sure we have to pay but it was worth every penny of it. In fact I have attended not just one course and photoshoots but numerous ones as well. I will be damn! Different photographers have different ways of teaching, conducting courses and photoshoots.

The drop in standard is also due to influx of many newbies has just started photography as well. What you expect all forums should have a certain standard? Who is to judge what is a good or bad photos? All of us are learning and from time we will improve. How are we going to improve if we do not post lousy photos? Photography is not instant noodle where it is cook in 5 minutes. It takes time for us newbies to improve. You were once a newbie too.

I would say that the equipment forums now belong to a handful of so-called photographers who are probably interested in photography as a hobby for spending money and building personal ego but not interested in the art per se. This saddens me as it makes me wonder if ClubSNAP is a tech forum (like HWZ) or is it a photography forum. I tend to think it has become the former.

Pleasssseeee do not define the "so-called" on who is rich and the poor in here and who can spend money on buying equipment. Everyone is the same. So I have a D2H with a 300mm f2.8, what am I. A rich kid with too much money? Time again and again we have reminded that is the person behind the camera is most important, not the equipment.

Partly due to the technical side is because there are plenty of guys around CS (pardon me ladies!). What do you expect from us? Talk about girlfriends and what we ate today? Of course we talk about equipment lah.....

For me at least, I will always have fond memories of ClubSNAP as the photography forum that it was, the nice people I've met here. But henceforth I'm probably only going to post or surf here when I have a WTS or WTB.

Good for you then. Keep it up. We will miss you.....

Try going to "OTHER FORUMS" and see whether how active they are compare to CS. CS forum is one of the most active local forums in terms of Photography. Maybe you should start a new forum for yourself and call it "MHSP" = "Must Have Standard Photos" forum.

Admins and Mods, sorry for my being straight to the point. Since sfhuang cannot "tahan" what he observe, I also cannot "tahan" what he is blabbering away. Again sorry for my bluntness but my comments are worth about 5 cents. Not flamming but stating my view.....

I thank you ladies and gentlemen.....have a nice day.

 

[Bluestrike]

Guys.. and gers..

let be a bit more relaxed in our use of language and tone.

I'm sure that SFhuang doesn't mean it that way.

Mod
Kopitiam.

 

[Godzilla Invades]

Guys.. and gers..

let be a bit more relaxed in our use of language and tone.

I'm sure that SFhuang doesn't mean it that way.

Mod
Kopitiam.

YES SIR!

:sweatsm: Cooooolllllllinnnnnnggggg dowwnnnnnn........ahhhh! :sweatsm:

 

[Darren]

While everyone may have their own feelings and opinions about this topic, I urge all members to maintain their cool and composure in their responses and not turn things into an ugly slugfest.

Everyone is entitled to have their own view of things. Thus please refrain from attacking another member's posts

 

[snappist]

A company making use Clubsnap as a free online forum to promote its products or to conduct mass ordering. Can the company be morally responsible to pass on some of its revenue towards the running of the web site?

what's wrong with Clubsnap, a provate organisation, making money from merchants who uses Clubsnap's eyeballs to promote awareness of products and services it offer?

Ain't a certain advanced ASEAN government's moral role to provide for its people.. but look? They are making heaps from her people and paying themselves lots of plates of spaghetti !!!

As SFhaung mentioned, it is not abt making some kopi money.. it is now about some center/organisations posting repeatedly for its courses/workshops. He is not against individuals trading their used equipment for usage by other hobbyist. It is not targetted towards MOs by amateurs but about commercial organisations who profited from the traffic here with free repeated advertisements. And Clubsnap can benefit from some form of revenue from such commercial organisations.

Sfhaung, expect some flames from your post. From ethical grounds or personal angles, you will be attacked from all sides from certain sectors.
Although your intention of exhorting more discourse and appreciation of photographs is good, your written manner is not objective enough, IMO. This is a good ground for attacks on this post as it is against the interests of certain sectors.
You should know better.... you had been similarly attacked before.

 

[wantunn]

Based on the first post, this site should
1. Ban commercial entities from posting in Workshops (how do you define commercial? If you make money it's commercial right so amateurs are also commercial in that sense)
2. Have photo workshops and outings. Wait a minute, I thought there still are workshops and outings... or at least SEED every month.
3. Ban those with money/ego from posting in the equipment forums (don't worry, there are only a handful). No discussing technical issues in the equipment forums either. (so what do we discuss?)
4. Raise the standard of photography to be above PBASE. Or at least reduce the size of clubsnap members to be below PBASE. (Btw, at the time of this post, PBASE has 50,485 registered members and Clubsnap has 9,017). And find the judge who decides the standard as well.
5. Force chngpe01 and tomshen to post fabulous, breath-taking shots every other week
6. "look at what the forum has become today. It is more a classified ads site than anything else." But do keep the buy and sell section.

But really, the purpose/message of this thread eludes me.

 

[sfhuang]

As SFhaung mentioned, it is not abt making some kopi money.. it is now about some center/organisations posting repeatedly for its courses/workshops. He is not against individuals trading their used equipment for usage by other hobbyist. It is not targetted towards MOs by amateurs but about commercial organisations who profited from the traffic here with free repeated advertisements. And Clubsnap can benefit from some form of revenue from such commercial organisations.

Sfhaung, expect some flames from your post. From ethical grounds or personal angles, you will be attacked from all sides from certain sectors.
Although your intention of exhorting more discourse and appreciation of photographs is good, your written manner is not objective enough, IMO. This is a good ground for attacks on this post as it is against the interests of certain sectors.
You should know better.... you had been similarly attacked before.

Exactly. Thanks for clarifying what I was trying to say.

 

[zaren]

Clubsnap is not perfect, but it's a great way to indulge one's photography passion...

AND it is livelier than any other forums i have visited.

 

[erwinx]

When ClubSNAP first started, we had folks like chngpe01 and tomshen posting fabulous, breath-taking shots every other week for all of us to marvel at, critique on and learn from.

I think your recollection of clubsnap history is a bit distorted. It seems that you are thinking that Chngpe01 and Tomshen's 2004 standard of photography was the same as their standard in 2002 (i.e. that they have not improved)

Chngpe01 did not join clubsnap until later. As for Tomshen, he was one of the first D60 shooters, and well, when you compare his present photos to earlier attempts on D60, you can see he has made an enormous improvement

This is actually why Clubsnap is better than ever before, because the photographers who joined earlier are producing better images now than ever before.

 

[jonlou]

Clubsnap is not perfect, but it's a great way to indulge one's photography passion...

AND it is livelier than any other forums i have visited.

no doubt zaren. CS is a warm place for all of us to gather in. in my few months here, i've learnt many things, photography or not from the many friendly people ard here. if everything is gonna be soo formal... then i suggest we do some strict protocol or something for everyone to follow los... then we'll achieve the high standard of a photography forum - without the warmth and liveliness.

 

[student]

Certainly as sfhuang had expected, flames have gone up like nothing on earth!

I do not want to be "involved" but feel that since I want to be part of this community, make some suggestions for people to consider

1 I think that the "quality" of posted pictures should never be an issue. We all start somewhere, and it is good to have advice and encouragement along the way, even if one considers himself "advance". I have not posted pictures my self for certain personal quirks, but I am capable of tremendous self criticism. In fact it is good to see that "newbies" post their pictures despite knowing that they are "learners", and not be intimidated by "experts".

2 I think that buying and selling is OK, and I would encourage it. But I would prefer a reorganisation of the threads so that the B/S postings do not overwhelm the other threads.

3 Regarding "Paid Workshops". I think they are providing a good service. Whether CS shoud levy a small charge or not is controversial. I can see the point that cost to members might go up if the workshop providers cannot or will not, for whatever reason, absorb the increased "cost". But I do not know anything about maintaining a website like this. Who pays for it? The issue is not whether one should pay to learn from a pro/commercial enterprise. I think this is expected. A photographer who is willing to teach freely is to be lauded, but the professionals/commercial enterprises are expected to be paid. One question is whether the pro/commercial should pay CS for advertising.

4 While photography, paintings etc are art. There are obviously "standards". This is difficulty to quantify. But we know "standards" when we see one. But "standards" do not mean other works are meaningless and less than important. It does not mean that those of a lesser "standards" are not worth looking at. For from it,we should encourage it! For example, recently there was a post on hands on a piano. Several Csers wrote in to advise that the keyboards were "blown-out" without and texture. Advice was accepted. and hopefully the next picture better taken/process, resulting in a "better"standard. But I think the idea that anything is good because I say so can lead to a hindrance in progress in improving our photography. There is no necessity to compare Cs to other forums as far as "Standards" are concern.

We set our own goals and direction of what we want this forum to be! We should look at other forums to see what we can learn to achieve our goals and objectives.

 

[oeyvind]

For any site to be a success, it must have CONTENT!

And believe it or not, CS has it! In terms of pix, great B&S sections, etc.

:thumbsup:

 

[jonlou]

Certainly as sfhuang had expected, flames have gone up like nothing on earth!

I do not want to be "involved" but feel that since I want to be part of this community, make some suggestions for people to consider

1 I think that the "quality" of posted pictures should never be an issue. We all start somewhere, and it is good to have advice and encouragement along the way, even if one considers himself "advance". I have not posted pictures my self for certain personal quirks, but I am capable of tremendous self criticism. In fact it is good to see that "newbies" post their pictures despite knowing that they are "learners", and not be intimidated by "experts".

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[ed9119]

I prefer this site to Offstone somehow, partially due to it's virtually freedom to post bad pictures, only with bad pictures and comments will the poster and other reader may improve.

.....

err....blurblock, I dont think Offstone has a restriction on people posting 'bad' images within its forum....just clarifying.....and its perfectly OK to prefer CS to OS or vice versa.

 

[ccplim]

1 I think that the "quality" of posted pictures should never be an issue. We all start somewhere, and it is good to have advice and encouragement along the way, even if one considers himself "advance". I have not posted pictures my self for certain personal quirks, but I am capable of tremendous self criticism. In fact it is good to see that "newbies" post their pictures despite knowing that they are "learners", and not be intimidated by "experts".

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I truly agreed with you. Even though I myself is a newbie, but as a mod of another forum, we have always advise/encourage new members to post their pictures be it good or bad so that we can help them to improve along the way. By doing so, we also get to learn.

The results........ we have seen some real improvements. In fact, this is how we get to learn.

 

[snappist]

why not allow other CS members to rate the comments/critiques in the photo gallery section? (one rating per member)

that way, an overly gushing comment may sometimes only get 2/5 in terms of respect while a scathing but honest comment (a la simon cowell) may sometimes get 4/5 in terms of respect. and an obviously trolling comment would get 0/5.

this might encourage CSers to a) take better photos b) be more thick skinned c) improve their critiques d) avoid trolling.

any takers?

good idea.... we had got two constructive ideas so far resulting from the "everlasting moaning" of Sfhaung in kopitiam.. Let's see:
1. getting website to have rating mechanism for reviews
2. customise "New daily posts"

improvements = innovations = more brainwork = manhour = some compensation = money = revenue

like what I said...
more revenue from legitimate means resulting from marketing Clubsnap's eyeballs and traffic. And getting the commercial interests(personnels/entities/companies/proprietorships) to pay for some money per advertisement is one form of revenue for Clubsnap.

more revenue = more money = some compensation = some manhour = some more brainwork = more innovations = continual improvements

it flows backwards. Get it?

For those who argue against this "revenue"
then no paid advertising = blatant, excessive advertisements

or as student pointed out before...
with paid advertisements = get more eyeballs = commercial centre absord cost = less margins = classes filled

or with paid advertisements = get more eyeballs = commercial centre pass cost to consumers = more margins = 1.classes filled or 2.classes not fully filled or 3.decide not to offer class

 

[ed9119]

make it easier to post pics and you'll see an immediate pick up on the galleries.....from me, for one

 

[tomshen]

Personally I am not against buy/sell. As photographers, we do talk about gears, but dont be too obsessed. I agree that the focus of many photographers here are not so concentrated on PICTURES, which are essentially the most crucial stuff. Myself was perfectly a newbie when I stepped into Clubsnap. Basically I have been growing with CS and learnt a lot from others. Nowadays although I look at other photography sites for inspirition, still prefer CS as there are so many familiar people here. I do wish to see more nice photos from everyone. We speak with pictures, don't we?

 

[Snazzy]

Hello guys,



Nothing in life is free. This website isn't. Your internet connection isn't, and definetly not the courses on offer here. If CS has a section for paid shoots etc, then there's no room for argument there. People come to CS for various reasons. Some come here for help on equipment, others for help on photography, and even for the sake of satisfying one's craving for a community that caters to those who love photography for various reasons. I applaud the administration of CS for maintaining a website like this, because it brings people together.

Courses that charge fees do so for a reason: cost. It's not easy to organize a shoot, trip or course to begin with, and it sure as hell doesn't come cheap. What's the going rate for a model? Or the cost of renting a bus to ferry people from point A to B? SFHUANG's argument of establishments making money out of advertising here, is based on the assumption that they DO make money? What if they don't? What if charges are just enough to cover cost, and all is said and done in the name of photography? If this is true, then i can only imagine how distraught some of these folks are right about now. Ok, so there might be some profit made from these events. So what? Isn't time and effort worth anything these days?

Let's take it one step further. What if, through these courses, shoots etc, people progress in their photography skills, and then visit this site more often? Wouldn't they then see the advertisements from sponsors like Cathay, Eastgear etc? Eastgear or Cathay gets more business, they sponsor CS during its events etc. Professional photographers get paid for their courses etc, and they in turn organize these things. In both cases, traffic in CS increases, and CS grows in more ways than one. Every single category available in the forum is there for reasons that have been well thought out, and they are integral to the growth of CS and photography overall.

If one feels that no money should be earned from sharing knowledge, then it would certainly be interesting to see wedding courses, model shoots, road trips, and the like offered for next to nothing more than "kopi money". Can CS offer these services to its members for free in the good name of sharing? Probably not. Wouldn't it be better then to just "contract" these services out, by allowing the organization and advertising of these events? I believe that these courses, road trips etc help to keep the fire burning strongly, and should continue to be given a chance to grow.

We go about our lives without realizing that things work in a circular manner. I buy a Mercedes Benz for myself, and drive around with the Mercedes branding plastered all over my car. Should i shave it all of because i'm doing free advertising for Mercedes Benz, and i paid good money for the car? Doubt it.