A suggestion to improve photos in CS to next level..
- Thread starter mtunlinn
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Del_CtrlnoAlt
Senior Member
Maybe even have a competition...
Guess how its done...
Then participants try to guess what lens its used (we erase exif)
Then how was it done, etc... Weekly prizes...
Bluesteel
Senior Member
Steven ,
Thanks for pointing out this lively thread to me!
The whole idea behind this discussion is to inspire and impart knowhow, so as to elevated the standard of photography in CS. I do believe this is the main reason most newbies are here for..... to learn. Pictures of the week/month is one approach to inspire. More importantly, it is how as a forum we impart knowhow through constructive criticism as touched on by tchuaye. So perhaps, it is relevant for this newbie to give some input to learning and the process of learning through comments and critiques.
The reason we request Comments and critique is to get feedback so that we can have a feel of how others view our work , these can either be favorable or critical. Generally most would prefer favorable comments as it gives you a moral boost and urge you on and make you look good in front of the audience .
If you are serious about learning , the critical feedback is the meat of the whole process. Critical feedbacks normally come from forumers that are experienced and have some standing in a community.
In a complete process, feedback both favorable and critical should be elaborated by stating why you like or do not agreed on . The critical comments (critique) given should be accompanied by suggestions on how to improve on the area highlighted. The last bit has been conspicuously missing from most local photographic forums. This leads to the muddy idea that comments and critiques are the same. One moderator gave me a shock, suggested everyone including newbies and those that have no knowledge on subject matter are entitled to critique. It dawned on me later he meant comments.
After looking through the ways most forums conduct "Critique", a pattern of these feedbacks from both seniors and junior soon became very obvious. It was more a back patting session between friends and stating the obvious that they called "critique" for example:
A: Good shot , excellent shoot , wow! I love it etc . There was no elaboration on why they consider the work shown is good or excellent and why they fell in love with it.
Poster: "Gee they like my shot !" Got his ego boost but none the wiser why and what they like about the shot .
Newbie: " Oh ! Okie ! Oh that is a nice shot !" But don't know why!
B: "Wish more DOF", "wish the Background distraction is not there", "sensor not parallel to subject", these are without elaborations or suggestion to overcome the nits.
Poster: At the meantime must be muttering :" yes give me more light and there will be more DOF!", " Please help me wish that damn tree away!", " I can see the damn thing is not parallel to my sensor , how to parallel it........^%@#! talk like no talk!"
Newbie: Hmmm... oh! this is call critique hmmmm ...okie I know liew! It is very simple to critique!
The above examples of feedbacks are becoming the norm and known as "critiques" in most local forums ! I am equally guilty too at times, due to the lack of time and perhaps our local mentality that we would rather praise than critique since critique is more difficult and it will have to be elaborated, and provide suggestions to overcome the problem.
Comments and Critique (C &C) is an integral part of a structured learning process. Done properly it gave the poster a boost and leads him to greater height. Done in front of an audience, not just the person whose work is being evaluated benefit from the process, those as passive audience benefited as well.
The essentials for a proper critique is not just the work , it has to be accompany by the EXIFs and any other relevant information that could have influenced the shot, for instance the weather condition and the post processes that were done on the work presented for evaluation. Without these informations it is well nigh impossible to do it properly, at best it will be purely base on one's experience and some guess work. Hence , to do it properly CS should initiate the move to include these informations when a shot is posted. I personally have benefited a lot through looking at other's Exifs.
The work to be critically evaluate must come with as much relevant information as possible for a proper critique to be conducted . In the process the one giving critique is also being evaluated by the audience . Whether you are talking with substance or just nit picking without giving solution very soon become very obvious to those watching.
It is almost impossible to have all information available at times, whenever I have reservation of something I normally give it the benefit of the doubt so as not to put the poster and myself on the spot. To me to nit pick a picture to perfection is a bunch of bulls, there is no way of doing it, so I try not to embarrass both the poster and myself.;p
To critique is an art and I am still learning and evolving my own style of photo critique, but as a starter I limit myself to 2-3 major areas that I have suggestions and experience on......too many points it takes time and make the poster fall asleep. The net is convenient in access and e-learning , however nothing beats learning face to face, hence where possible organized outing is a great way for the exchange of notes and ideas.
Thanks for enduring my 2 caterpillars worth!
Cheers!
Thanks for pointing out this lively thread to me!
The whole idea behind this discussion is to inspire and impart knowhow, so as to elevated the standard of photography in CS. I do believe this is the main reason most newbies are here for..... to learn. Pictures of the week/month is one approach to inspire. More importantly, it is how as a forum we impart knowhow through constructive criticism as touched on by tchuaye. So perhaps, it is relevant for this newbie to give some input to learning and the process of learning through comments and critiques.
The reason we request Comments and critique is to get feedback so that we can have a feel of how others view our work , these can either be favorable or critical. Generally most would prefer favorable comments as it gives you a moral boost and urge you on and make you look good in front of the audience .
If you are serious about learning , the critical feedback is the meat of the whole process. Critical feedbacks normally come from forumers that are experienced and have some standing in a community.
In a complete process, feedback both favorable and critical should be elaborated by stating why you like or do not agreed on . The critical comments (critique) given should be accompanied by suggestions on how to improve on the area highlighted. The last bit has been conspicuously missing from most local photographic forums. This leads to the muddy idea that comments and critiques are the same. One moderator gave me a shock, suggested everyone including newbies and those that have no knowledge on subject matter are entitled to critique. It dawned on me later he meant comments.
After looking through the ways most forums conduct "Critique", a pattern of these feedbacks from both seniors and junior soon became very obvious. It was more a back patting session between friends and stating the obvious that they called "critique" for example:
A: Good shot , excellent shoot , wow! I love it etc . There was no elaboration on why they consider the work shown is good or excellent and why they fell in love with it.
Poster: "Gee they like my shot !" Got his ego boost but none the wiser why and what they like about the shot .
Newbie: " Oh ! Okie ! Oh that is a nice shot !" But don't know why!
B: "Wish more DOF", "wish the Background distraction is not there", "sensor not parallel to subject", these are without elaborations or suggestion to overcome the nits.
Poster: At the meantime must be muttering :" yes give me more light and there will be more DOF!", " Please help me wish that damn tree away!", " I can see the damn thing is not parallel to my sensor , how to parallel it........^%@#! talk like no talk!"
Newbie: Hmmm... oh! this is call critique hmmmm ...okie I know liew! It is very simple to critique!
The above examples of feedbacks are becoming the norm and known as "critiques" in most local forums ! I am equally guilty too at times, due to the lack of time and perhaps our local mentality that we would rather praise than critique since critique is more difficult and it will have to be elaborated, and provide suggestions to overcome the problem.
Comments and Critique (C &C) is an integral part of a structured learning process. Done properly it gave the poster a boost and leads him to greater height. Done in front of an audience, not just the person whose work is being evaluated benefit from the process, those as passive audience benefited as well.
The essentials for a proper critique is not just the work , it has to be accompany by the EXIFs and any other relevant information that could have influenced the shot, for instance the weather condition and the post processes that were done on the work presented for evaluation. Without these informations it is well nigh impossible to do it properly, at best it will be purely base on one's experience and some guess work. Hence , to do it properly CS should initiate the move to include these informations when a shot is posted. I personally have benefited a lot through looking at other's Exifs.
The work to be critically evaluate must come with as much relevant information as possible for a proper critique to be conducted . In the process the one giving critique is also being evaluated by the audience . Whether you are talking with substance or just nit picking without giving solution very soon become very obvious to those watching.
It is almost impossible to have all information available at times, whenever I have reservation of something I normally give it the benefit of the doubt so as not to put the poster and myself on the spot. To me to nit pick a picture to perfection is a bunch of bulls, there is no way of doing it, so I try not to embarrass both the poster and myself.;p
To critique is an art and I am still learning and evolving my own style of photo critique, but as a starter I limit myself to 2-3 major areas that I have suggestions and experience on......too many points it takes time and make the poster fall asleep. The net is convenient in access and e-learning , however nothing beats learning face to face, hence where possible organized outing is a great way for the exchange of notes and ideas.
Thanks for enduring my 2 caterpillars worth!
Cheers!
night86mare
Deregistered
yes, this is something i notice also. very insightful.
other than that, while i feel that sugar-coated comments are not good, when the person in question has done something well, despite having error in other areas, say.. poor composition but good exposure (especially for troublesome scenes).. should be told that what he is doing in that aspect is good.
we are getting very polarised comments.. all which can be done in 2 seconds.. there is no perfect photograph.. what is important is how to make the most out of the scene. it is not just about achieving perfection in that very scene, but also a lifelong understanding of light, technicalities and how to get the shot you want.. not just about that particular frame.. why lose sight of the forest for the tree?
i think there is also a general failure to acknowledge that sometimes, there is no shot to be taken. with poor lighting conditions, you could take a photograph, but it will be flat, and no amount of photoshop is going to help that.
As a newbie, my observations on C&C are as follows.
Polarised C&C, like what night86mare has pointed out seems to be the norm in CS. Patting friends on the back is also inevitable, as the forum grows and cliques develop. It is impossible to eradicate these 2 issues. If anything, these 2 traits are core as to why CS population is growing. Patting each other on the back is mutual morale booster, whether or not the photo is good is irrelevant. Also, commenting on photos and supporting fellow clique members further enhances bonding, again, photo excellence is irrelevant.
Coming back to C&C on photos, I could be wrong, but I have this nagging feeling that C&C provided towards newbies are different from C&C provided towards friends / buddies / senior members. To illustrate my point, newbie and senior submit same photo for C&C. Newbie can get thrashed for various things which are mostly technical like picture not sharp, dark areas not exposed properly or the rules of composition not followed etc. On the other hand, the senior member's photo will probably receive comments like good bokeh, artistic use of light, unique perspective etc etc. So after a while, which newbie wants to post for C&C ?
Someone earlier on observed that even senior members either slow down or stop posting pictures. Most CS members, especially hobbyists hang out at CS to gain a sense of belonging. If in the process they learn something, great. If not, no loss since he is photographing for his own enjoyment. He doesn't need to perfect his shots so that he can earn a living via photography and he certainly didn't come here to be chided by people.
If the objective is to develop CS into a forum with great photos posted by its members, then focusing on C&C so that the general CS population buck up is one way forward. However, if only 10 % of the population supports this notion, but the other 90 % remains dormant and are happy just to browse B&S, discuss equipment or join outings to widen their social circles then getting all worked up about C&C and what C&C can do for CS may be barking up the wrong tree.
Its time for me to stop writing .. its like more than 2 caterpillars worth already
Thanks for reading.
Polarised C&C, like what night86mare has pointed out seems to be the norm in CS. Patting friends on the back is also inevitable, as the forum grows and cliques develop. It is impossible to eradicate these 2 issues. If anything, these 2 traits are core as to why CS population is growing. Patting each other on the back is mutual morale booster, whether or not the photo is good is irrelevant. Also, commenting on photos and supporting fellow clique members further enhances bonding, again, photo excellence is irrelevant.
Coming back to C&C on photos, I could be wrong, but I have this nagging feeling that C&C provided towards newbies are different from C&C provided towards friends / buddies / senior members. To illustrate my point, newbie and senior submit same photo for C&C. Newbie can get thrashed for various things which are mostly technical like picture not sharp, dark areas not exposed properly or the rules of composition not followed etc. On the other hand, the senior member's photo will probably receive comments like good bokeh, artistic use of light, unique perspective etc etc. So after a while, which newbie wants to post for C&C ?
Someone earlier on observed that even senior members either slow down or stop posting pictures. Most CS members, especially hobbyists hang out at CS to gain a sense of belonging. If in the process they learn something, great. If not, no loss since he is photographing for his own enjoyment. He doesn't need to perfect his shots so that he can earn a living via photography and he certainly didn't come here to be chided by people.
If the objective is to develop CS into a forum with great photos posted by its members, then focusing on C&C so that the general CS population buck up is one way forward. However, if only 10 % of the population supports this notion, but the other 90 % remains dormant and are happy just to browse B&S, discuss equipment or join outings to widen their social circles then getting all worked up about C&C and what C&C can do for CS may be barking up the wrong tree.
Its time for me to stop writing .. its like more than 2 caterpillars worth already
Thanks for reading.zero o, i think you made good observations
i have to admit that there's a lack of serious critique culture in the forum in general. the trend of postings in Critique Corner is really not up to the definition of critique. the biggest problems are that many members rampantly post with disregard for the posting rules and many experienced photographers couldn't be bothered to participate. that's the fact now.
working the critique culture is a long term process, not all critique forums are successful, many are also plagued by problems of blatant biasness which you've mentioned. for now, Critique Corner operates on the principle of non discrimination against identity (seniors and newbies alike are free to post for critique or offer critique.) which i think is much better than an identity based critique forum that will almost surely fall into the trap of biased postings. only thing is that i hope members will read and understand the posting rules, and take some time to go through the basic tips listed in the stickies as well (think i've typed this a hundred times :bsmilie: )
we also have the problem of an over emphasis on technicalities, which is unavoidable since most critique seekers are newbies and most problems newbies have to deal with are technical problems. it becomes a self reinforcing cycle. as of now things look more like a photo-clinic than a critique corner.
anyway i'm glad problems are being pointed out. do feel free to give more suggestions/opinions, like i said, we don't want to discriminate against identity
i have to admit that there's a lack of serious critique culture in the forum in general. the trend of postings in Critique Corner is really not up to the definition of critique. the biggest problems are that many members rampantly post with disregard for the posting rules and many experienced photographers couldn't be bothered to participate. that's the fact now.
working the critique culture is a long term process, not all critique forums are successful, many are also plagued by problems of blatant biasness which you've mentioned. for now, Critique Corner operates on the principle of non discrimination against identity (seniors and newbies alike are free to post for critique or offer critique.) which i think is much better than an identity based critique forum that will almost surely fall into the trap of biased postings. only thing is that i hope members will read and understand the posting rules, and take some time to go through the basic tips listed in the stickies as well (think i've typed this a hundred times :bsmilie: )
we also have the problem of an over emphasis on technicalities, which is unavoidable since most critique seekers are newbies and most problems newbies have to deal with are technical problems. it becomes a self reinforcing cycle. as of now things look more like a photo-clinic than a critique corner.
anyway i'm glad problems are being pointed out. do feel free to give more suggestions/opinions, like i said, we don't want to discriminate against identity
mtunlinn
New Member
Thanks a lot for all your participation, contribution and detailed analysis. Really really really appreciate that.
I become to understand the wider scope of the problem. I believe we can work out something from here.
I agree with leong23 that more and more good photos and photographers are disappearing from CS (especially macro forum). It is a sad thing but true..
I become to understand the wider scope of the problem. I believe we can work out something from here.
I agree with leong23 that more and more good photos and photographers are disappearing from CS (especially macro forum). It is a sad thing but true..
Thank you Eikin. I agree with you that a critique culture is not an easy objective to achieve. But constructive criticism remains a very useful & powerful tool, if used in the right context, given by the right critic to someone genuinely seeking comments. I have just discovered the sticky in the critique corner entitled "Examples from critique corner" and to me, if one bothers going through the pictures and the comments highlighted, one should be able to learn a thing or two.
A growing online community like CS will always have members who will disregard the rules, intentional or otherwise. It is inevitable, given the influx of new members who are not familiar with CS culture yet; there are also those who have been around, yet choose to ignore the rules for their own reasons. Right now, we are primarily Singapore oriented, I can only imagine the magnitude of the same problem when CS starts attracting a global audience.
Just to OT a bit from this thread topic, I believe that an online community is what its members make it out to be. Moderators cannot and should not be the sole parties responsible for policing the community. Members should learn to police themselves. Again, this needs to evolve. Moderators and Admin will need to start by exploring whether this is something that they want to cultivate in our online community. If it is positive, moderators can start exploring with a group of senior members who have been consistent over the years to help get the ball rolling. Their main role will be to advise members towards acceptable online behavior or more specifically CS community behavior. I have observed "brat pack" attacks (for lack of a better word, please dont :kok: me ) on bad behavior or silly postings. Why cant we have the same type of "community justice" but in a positive manner towards renegades who break the rules. If the renegade continues to be a pain, moderators can then step in. This will not only give everyone a sense of belonging, but it also cultivate responsible behavior by members since they can be "told off" by their own peers in time to come when this community justice culture matures in CS. This is just an idea off the top of my head - for all I know, you guys have already considered this years ago and decided that it will not work OR its already implemented in stealth mode and I am too blind to see it. I haven't explored the possible pitfalls or the massive implementation logistics, nor the repercussions of having such a system. But hey, ideas are a a dime dozen.. its the implementation that KILLS.
I am rambling again ... so once again thanks for reading ..
A growing online community like CS will always have members who will disregard the rules, intentional or otherwise. It is inevitable, given the influx of new members who are not familiar with CS culture yet; there are also those who have been around, yet choose to ignore the rules for their own reasons. Right now, we are primarily Singapore oriented, I can only imagine the magnitude of the same problem when CS starts attracting a global audience.
Just to OT a bit from this thread topic, I believe that an online community is what its members make it out to be. Moderators cannot and should not be the sole parties responsible for policing the community. Members should learn to police themselves. Again, this needs to evolve. Moderators and Admin will need to start by exploring whether this is something that they want to cultivate in our online community. If it is positive, moderators can start exploring with a group of senior members who have been consistent over the years to help get the ball rolling. Their main role will be to advise members towards acceptable online behavior or more specifically CS community behavior. I have observed "brat pack" attacks (for lack of a better word, please dont :kok: me ) on bad behavior or silly postings. Why cant we have the same type of "community justice" but in a positive manner towards renegades who break the rules. If the renegade continues to be a pain, moderators can then step in. This will not only give everyone a sense of belonging, but it also cultivate responsible behavior by members since they can be "told off" by their own peers in time to come when this community justice culture matures in CS. This is just an idea off the top of my head - for all I know, you guys have already considered this years ago and decided that it will not work OR its already implemented in stealth mode and I am too blind to see it. I haven't explored the possible pitfalls or the massive implementation logistics, nor the repercussions of having such a system. But hey, ideas are a a dime dozen.. its the implementation that KILLS.
I am rambling again ... so once again thanks for reading ..
scandisk
Senior Member
since probably therell be lots of photos submitted how about a small time window for CSers to post on a special contest thread (can be divided into sub-cat if need to) so that we can limit the number photos for judging perhaps ? if not therell be tons of photos (a headache :bsmilie for the judges to decide on which is the winning shot...
for the judges to decide on which is the winning shot...
mtunlinn
New Member
since probably therell be lots of photos submitted how about a small time window for CSers to post on a special contest thread (can be divided into sub-cat if need to) so that we can limit the number photos for judging perhaps ? if not therell be tons of photos (a headache :bsmilie
Thanks for your suggestion.
I think we should look forward to participation of the majority.
A mechanism with built-in motivation for everyone to share, learn and then be rewarded.swishbrade
New Member
Hi
What about a monthly competition where photos are chosen via registered members' votes, so that moderators dont have to do all the work. Not that we should copy them but PhotoMalaysia seems to have the logistics sewn up pretty well and they get prizes sponsored by Canon too.
http://www.photomalaysia.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46158
What about a monthly competition where photos are chosen via registered members' votes, so that moderators dont have to do all the work. Not that we should copy them but PhotoMalaysia seems to have the logistics sewn up pretty well and they get prizes sponsored by Canon too.
http://www.photomalaysia.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46158
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