A suggestion to improve photos in CS to next level..

[night86mare]

How about for someone to post a photo for C&C, that person must also provide C&C for another ?

IMHO, the photographer should also eventually learn to criticize (preferably harshly) his own work first.

i personally think the mods should put on a harder line on

thumbsup posts and "nice! sweet! beautiful! photographs" comments.. especially when the user seems to be doing a huge amount of it.

to me, some of these people are obvious post whores.. there is zero thought put into 80% of their posts.

admittedly it's always great to get encouragement, but i think there is always something to pick on in a photograph.. and that's the reason we post up photographs, i think.. to learn from other's opinions. if not one could just sit at home, look at the screen and drool about his own photographs and never improve. :dunno:

 

[Leong23]

IMO, that is what we are doing now. It may not be easy for one to C&C a photo due to the experience level or language efficiency. There are some "too good to be true" comments posted in our forums. Not everybody wants to comment on photos too. (correct me if i am wrong)

I think it is more important for us to see good photos and be inspired by them. Motivation..... That is what bluesteel has done in Macro forum. His exceptional butterfly shots has motivated many of us.

We need some motivation for better photogs to post their photos in this forum too. We will learn from those photos and be motivated. It will benefit everybody including the better photogs themself.

But some people only like to hear good comments from others.
Just comments them a bit, they fly their aeroplane and bombard back like not tomorrow..... :sweat:

TS, so what do you think we should react to this type of people?

 

[Leong23]

To create a real C&C culture is really not easy, especially in a big family like CS.
Not everyone is fit to give comments and not everyone is ready to eat their pride to receive comments.

There are so many type of people actively surfing CS, it is very hard to make everyone think the same way.

There are people are who:
Don't post photo
Don't comments
Post photo and want to learn
Post photo just to heard good comments
Give real comments
Give standard :thumbsup: comments
Give technical advice
Give wrong technical advice, still think they are right
Ask stupid question
Waiting people to spoon feed them.

The list go on and on.....

 

[mtunlinn]

But some people only like to hear good comments from others.
Just comments them a bit, they fly their aeroplane and bombard back like not tomorrow..... :sweat:

TS, so what do you think we should react to this type of people?

We just leave them as they are. If they really want to improve, they will learn from the "real" comments. Some ppl just want to share their photos and they may not be that serious to take better ones. Just for fun and just for their hobby..

To create a real C&C culture is really not easy, especially in a big family like CS.
Not everyone is fit to give comments and not everyone is ready to eat their pride to receive comments.

There are so many type of people actively surfing CS, it is very hard to make everyone think the same way.

There are people are who:
Don't post photo
Don't comments
Post photo and want to learn
Post photo just to heard good comments
Give real comments
Give standard :thumbsup: comments
Give technical advice
Give wrong technical advice, still think they are right
Ask stupid question
Waiting people to spoon feed them.

The list go on and on.....

It is true. It's time to separate men from boys. That's why i suggest "Photo of the month (or) week"

 

[eikin]

it's really encouraging to see some form of positive discussion going on. for now one of the more important things we need to see is level of interest as well. it's difficult to implement projects without the support of members. i think it will be good if we can have more concerned members, some of whom have remained behind the scene as well, to come forward and express interests and offer opinions with regards to raising the standard of photography in the galleries. we definitely will like to have more professionals and experienced amateurs come into the forum to share their works and experiences, everyone stands to benefit.

 

[mtunlinn]

i personally think the mods should put on a harder line on

thumbsup posts and "nice! sweet! beautiful! photographs" comments.. especially when the user seems to be doing a huge amount of it.

to me, some of these people are obvious post whores.. there is zero thought put into 80% of their posts.

I think mods will be very busy if they give infractions to all those posts.

I feel it is ok to leave them as they are. They may be friends. It may be due to the lack of good photos sometimes. We need more and more better photos in CS to compare and contrast.

If we think in a more positive way, the pics may be somewhat good for the commenter. They know that the pics lack something but may not be able to express them due to their experience. Sometimes just to give some encouragement to TS but the encouragement shouldn't stop there. At least they should point out a few pointers to take note for future photos.

admittedly it's always great to get encouragement, but i think there is always something to pick on in a photograph.. and that's the reason we post up photographs, i think.. to learn from other's opinions. if not one could just sit at home, look at the screen and drool about his own photographs and never improve. :dunno:

It is true indeed. We need to raise up our level and expectation.

That's is how (i believe) "Photo of the month (or) week" will solve such problems to a certain extent.

 

[mtunlinn]

it's really encouraging to see some form of positive discussion going on. for now one of the more important things we need to see is level of interest as well. it's difficult to implement projects without the support of members. i think it will be good if we can have more concerned members, some of whom have remained behind the scene as well, to come forward and express interests and offer opinions with regards to raising the standard of photography in the galleries. we definitely will like to have more professionals and experienced amateurs come into the forum to share their works and experiences, everyone stands to benefit.

How about creating a poll in each sub forum (photo galleries) or somewhere better.? Possibly with the link to this thread. I think many ppl seldom visit this feedback forum.

 

[K3N]

Some suggestions
[1] The photo of the month/week sounds good. How about turning the entries into a coffee table book to be sold annually? Entrants will receive a small %profit based on the sales and the rest will go to the clubsnap fund.

[2] Modify clubsnap into a hybrid forum/flickr type social network site by expanding the user profile to include blogging and embedded gallery. Allow for respected users list like airliners.net and other user recognition icons(e.g. prolific writer icon, helpful writer icon, humourous writer icon) based on the rating of each individual post's usefulness, off-topic, funny, informative, intelligible etc. Awards for picture of the week or landscape picture of the week will appear as an icon award on the user's profile.

[3] Gear collectors and gear review session conducted once a month on a weekend for clubsnappers to go over gear and contribute their comments. Include high quality pictures of the gear and some basic tests. This will allow some kind of informal group contributed gear review. Gear collectors can contribute photos of and by unusual gear such as Nikon S2 or some other very old camera.

[4] Rewrite Clubsnap with custom code (e.g. Ajax, Flash) to give a unique or social type feel instead of using VBulletin (e.g. Lightstalkers.org has a unique feel different from alot of Vbulletin based boards) <-- very crazy suggestion

[5] Allow for shockwave flash slideshow with embedded audio/commentary

Will add more later if I can think of more.

 

[zaren]

another suggestion...

have a "cs photo feature" section or thread in which outstanding photos by CS members are showcased/featured/discussed. for example, there are some outstanding photos produced by CSers which have won prizes in international photo competitions, publications, etc. it would be inspiring and instructive to feature these photos and also to invite the photographer to discuss the photo with the community. this can be done (tentatively) on a monthly basis, with members proposing outstanding photos by CSers which they have come across, to be featured.

 

[eikin]

referring to the photo-a-week/month suggestion so far,

i think will be good to just rewind to last year's trial in the APAD gallery
http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287985

what we did was inviting members to nominate pictures they like for the week. the APAD moderators then do an internal selection amongst the few pictures with highest nominations and display the top 3 for the week in a separate picture thread as a sticky in the section.

the biggest problem was the lack of participation. if there's good response, i believe the mods will be more than happy to implement these projects. if the response is not good it becomes a burden for everyone. so first and foremost i think we're interested to know the interest level.

 

[eikin]

i've also been considering something in the line of ''thread of the week''

- members will rate gallery threads as per normal.
- top rated gallery threads (personal gallery threads only) posted within a stated period will then be considered for the title of ''thread of the week.''
- the chosen thread(s) will become a sticky thread in the gallery for a period of one week and be permanently listed in the ''thread of the week'' listing thread.

this is more hassle-free in terms of making use of what we have. if anyone has any opinions/suggestions to expand on this please feel free to discuss as well, and keep the other suggestions coming

 

[mtunlinn]

Some suggestions
[1] The photo of the month/week sounds good. How about turning the entries into a coffee table book to be sold annually? Entrants will receive a small %profit based on the sales and the rest will go to the clubsnap fund.

[2] Modify clubsnap into a hybrid forum/flickr type social network site by expanding the user profile to include blogging and embedded gallery. Allow for respected users list like airliners.net and other user recognition icons(e.g. prolific writer icon, helpful writer icon, humourous writer icon) based on the rating of each individual post's usefulness, off-topic, funny, informative, intelligible etc. Awards for picture of the week or landscape picture of the week will appear as an icon award on the user's profile.

[3] Gear collectors and gear review session conducted once a month on a weekend for clubsnappers to go over gear and contribute their comments. Include high quality pictures of the gear and some basic tests. This will allow some kind of informal group contributed gear review. Gear collectors can contribute photos of and by unusual gear such as Nikon S2 or some other very old camera.

[4] Rewrite Clubsnap with custom code (e.g. Ajax, Flash) to give a unique or social type feel instead of using VBulletin (e.g. Lightstalkers.org has a unique feel different from alot of Vbulletin based boards) <-- very crazy suggestion

[5] Allow for shockwave flash slideshow with embedded audio/commentary

Will add more later if I can think of more.

Thanks a lot for the time adding the suggestions. Except for point 1 and 3, i think the rest of the ideas need a lot of modification and money (i think) though they are very good ideas.

Pls keep the ideas coming in. Especially on whether and how we should implement photo of the month (or) week.

 

[zero o]

Taking up Eikin's invite for more members to voice their opinions - Raising the standard of photos in the galleries...

We already have good photos from the pros and semi-pros in CS. Do we want to focus on this group ? Or are we more concerned about encouraging the majority of CS members who are newbies, hobbyists and serious hobbyists to take better and post better pictures ? Since CS does not have an admission or posting criteria, the forum will always have newbies posting, good, bad and worse pictures.

If the objective is to help this group improve, we need to implement a program whereby we can "mass market" good photograph techniques and principles. "A picture speaks a thousand words", so what better way than to have a structured program incorporating (a) show a good picture (b) show EXIF data (c) have a pro photographer comment on WHY the picture works - covering areas like subject, background, composition, exposure, effect and any other pertinent info. Over time, members who follow this "tutorial will learn principles and technique" and hopefully take and post better photos.

From a resource perspective, we can limit it to ONE picture a week for ONE category and it can be made into a Sticky. There is minimal consolidation of submitted photos. no need to form a panel to deliberate over the photos etc, It can be done by just ONE person for each category, whether be it a moderator or a invited guest. This will minimize the time and effort needed to implement this program.

I cant speak for others, but for me as a hobbyist, such a STICKY thread will definitely help me improve my photography skills over time. Thank you for reading ..


cheers

 

[eikin]

thanks zero o for the suggestion i think you raised a good question as well. we do have a substantial amount of high quality postings, but so far i don't think we have an active culture of openly giving recognition to good works. i think it's important that good works are more actively promoted as that'll

1. encourage more experienced photographers to be willing to share their works (and thus bringing up the general quality of works posted here)
2. directly inspire less experienced hobbyists to better themselves

so far we're depending on members to spot the good threads and promote them, but most good threads are forgotten after awhile due to the volume of postings, and some works that deserve mentioning do get missing.

your suggestion of having the professionals and experienced hobbyists to come forward to offer critique is definitely welcomed. i'll truly be happy to see more active participation from this group.

 

[night86mare]

yes, i think the mods/admin should also take a more active role in encouraging.. instead of just performing admin duties

what joy is there in locking errant threads, wagging the finger at people when they go too far.. or giving out warnings?

i think it is also good to look for people that you have on your contact list in pbase/flickr and introduce them to clubsnap.. or reintroduce.. if i remember correctly danielcheong on flickr has posted here before but suddenly stopped, for whatever reason.

one thing that has to be taken note of is a balance has to be done, there is to be emphasis on good works, but not so much that it becomes a forbidding, pressure atmosphere where total newcomers are fearful to post because the standard is so high.

 

[tchuanye]

As some has pointed out, ideas may be good, but it still depends on whether there are participation from the members here.

I think if the motive is to improve the photography level, the culture of giving constructive critique must be there, and the culture of receiving them must also be there. Though we can ask the mods to do so, I think any member who is able to and WILLING to can do so.

I think the current format is fine, but the person must state his settings of his photos if he wants some C&C. I have asked for this before in the macro section, but not many do so.

Just some of my 2c.

 

[Leong23]

Actually lots of good photographer had stop posting in CS, for whatever reason.
Maybe because of the culture. :dunno:

Next level does it mean to change the current culture and make CS a elite club???

Actually the Admin and Mods should review the vision and mission of CS. With a clear vision mission, it is easier to work towards it.

 

[Leong23]

Sorry, to add on,

Currently in Macro Section, only tchuanye & BlueSteel (only butterfly shots) are supporting the whole Section, which I really respect their effort.

Other macro expert like NatureTTL, t7330 and StingRey had stop or seldom post in CS, although they are currently very active in other forum.

TS, think now you should know why? It is the culture, not just a "Photo of a Month" thing will change the culture.

It will be quite heart breaking if you see most of the photo submitted is in very low standard, and you will see more and more good photo disappearing here.

Or, the same winner had won the awards for months, the standard is too far for other to catch up, most of the people wouldn't bother to contest anymore.

Worst, less and less people willing to share their technical skill as to have a upper hand to win the contest. There are not more sharing culture in CS anymore. :dunno:

 

[foxtwo]

I just did a quick look through the C&C corner starting from Jan 08 to see if there is any trace of progression by the posters. And I think, there is maybe 1/4-1/3 who have posted more than twice. The rest? Perhaps they have graduated to other photo galleries or are better known as gear heads or kopi drinkers. Certainly it is not my business to know whether these people have improved their skills but it begs the question, Where are they now?

For every 10 'newbies' that come in, how many of them progress to 'the next stage'. If allowing for drop of interest etc, let's say 6 survive the test. Of that 6, 2 continue to diligently upgrade and improve while the other 4 are content at their level.

Frankly, I don't think the head should start moving unless it knows the feet won't drag. The gut seems quite content where it is. And the feet doesn't progress beyond the gut as the head is too small. The whole body should move together, but I know how hard that task is. If there is truly a desire to move forward, then there shouldn't be hesitation in chopping the dead weight. If actions will never become drastic then think small, big plans will just flounder and 6 months down the road this topic will spring up again with bigger plans in mind.

I'm not very keen on a photo of the month or week etc. It's true that it's most likely the same handful of people who will produce the better picture because they have a better understanding of a photograph compared to the rest.

What I feel would work better is to arrange 'classes' for a specific group of dedicated learners who show the most promise. These chosen will be under a team of mentors who impart Art. (I say Art and not just photography because the latter is a technique, while Art for example encompasses drawing- which is an excellent way to learn composition and lighting. So let's not be narrow minded and only focus on the word photos but also to learn to develop our minds to widen the scope for to input ideas and detail.) These learners will have to be screened unfortunately, as it would be impossible to teach everyone at the same time. The point is not to have it broad casted to the most people but to make sure the few people advance and then they in turn will gradually and steadily produce good pictures.

There is no quick fix way to improve ourselves by posting one or two new threads. It is not a forum problem but a lack of interpersonal guidance and also of separating the wheat from the chaff.

 

[night86mare]

Actually lots of good photographer had stop posting in CS, for whatever reason.
Maybe because of the culture. :dunno:
.

actually, i'd like to point out that you can't please everybody

and no forums should seek to do that, you will end up spoiling the mix more than helping it

while there are people who stop posting, there are people who continuing posting.. and yes, i worry about cs becoming too concerned with results rather than the process - for every idea put forth it is not easy to see that it can always be a double-edged sword.. but frankly i do not think getting a thread put up as a sticky once a month is going to be too discouraging

but yes, there are other things to be done. it is not easy though