Zone System

[ortega]

Zone System is not matrix Metering :sticktong

which part of
"I choose to capture the moment, leaving the technical bits to technology.
But of course the fundamentals must be there, in the first place."
says that it is??

 

[singscott]

I am no expert photographer, but allow me to give my two cents as well.

If you delve deep into the various photochemical processes used throughout the history of photography, or if you want to make your own film/paper and developers, you probably need to learn a lot of material. But very few people do this.

Then, there is the aesthetic aspect of creating photographs. This is largely a matter of taste, and again, one can read dozens of books without "understanding" it - probably because there is no objectively "correct" way to create a "good" picture.

The technical process of exposing the film/processing the picture data is, however, straightforward and easy to understand. It is just that there is a lot of mystique, rituals, and anecdotes about it that cause a lot of confusion.

The zone system is regarded by many as one of these rituals that make things look much more complicated than they are. And, as with other rituals, it often serves more of a social role (distinguishing zone system devotees from zone system heathen) than it has a scientifically sound foundation. The "zones" that give the system its name are after all purely arbitrary classifications of shades of gray ... :dunno:

It is not that the zone system leads to bad results, it just puts unneccessary fluff between the photographer and the simple concept of adjusting exposure and gradation (gamma) to accommodate the contrast of a given scene onto the medium, be it silver-halide based film or a semiconductor based sensor.

In digital camera terms, this simply means adjusting exposure and contrast so as to achieve a (subjectively) "good" histogram. If you photograph in "raw" mode, the zone system is completely meaningless, as the response of the image sensor is fixed (with film-based photography, one would adjust the film development). In the end, it boils down to adjusting "levels" or "curves" in photoshop to your liking.

By obscuring this simple concept, the zone system actually makes it harder to understand what is going on. As Andreas Feininger put it in one of his photography textbooks, the zone system makes mountains out of mole hills.

It also how you interpret it and fast learner you are. Zone is a detail discilpine, you need to know all the knowlendge it has and only use some of it to help to achieve the idea print.

 

[ortega]

OK, it seems that we are not on the same wavelenght, I will not presue this matter any longer, if you would like to talk to me over coffee, just let me know.

I have nothing against the ZS, in fact I mentioned that it is useful and I too use limited parts of it.

It seems that we are talking about different things. I am talking to the newbies and you seem to be talking to experienced photogs.

Cheers, it has been fun, confusing sometimes, but fun.

 

[singscott]

Not "passionate".

But people who try to correct misformation based on ignorance. Misformation is worse than no information. With no information I can look for one. With misformation, I make mistakes! While making mistakes is part of the learning process, mistakes based on misformation is terribly regrettable.

There is a difference between "information" and "opinion". It would do well for most to understand this. Giving 2 cents of misformation is not "well said". Giving 2 cents on "opinion" is fair play.

HAHA Very Well Said :sweatsm: :sweatsm:

 

[Pro Image]

OK, it seems that we are not on the same wavelenght, I will not presue this matter any longer, if you would like to talk to me over coffee, just let me know.

I have nothing against the ZS, in fact I mentioned that it is useful and I too use limited parts of it.

It seems that we are talking about different things. I am talking to the newbies and you seem to be talking to experienced photogs.

Cheers, it has been fun, confusing sometimes, but fun.

Hehe......it was fun! :bsmilie:

 

[singscott]

"Proper considerations which all photographers used 100% of the time" sounds good, but doesn't mean anything. I do know that some great photographs have been taken in the 100+ years before Ansel Adams published his zone system, and that characteristic curves for photographic emulsions are given as optical density vs. exposure, not in terms of "zones".

I am sorry for being so ignorant - I have known about aperture, exposure time, and film speed (back then in DIN degrees and ASA) for only about 30 years, and my understanding has been further spoilt by building a career on photophysics/-chemistry research and spectroscopy. I apologise to all newbies for spoiling their understanding of the zone system with a dose of reality. :sweatsm:

Ansel Adam created Zone system on what he been taught by these great master photographer. Just he create this system doesn't mean other master photographer of different era don't use it. But thank to him there something to guide us. If fact most master photographer even they are not B&W landscape photogreapher use the zone system because it work!!!

 

[singscott]

1 You just showed how useful it is for newbie to understand and apply the zone system. Without correct exposure how can there be a proper image. There are many who learnt how to expose a negative without knowing the ZS. They learnt it the hard way. Technology has improved. Why not learn new knowledge and apply them? The fact that people had made wonderful photographs without the proper understanding of ZS is irrelevant.

2 Please read my post carefully. I had said that matrix metering is wonderful and will give good exposures in most instances. But as a comparison to applying the ZS, it is a very poor imitation. If one is faced with a difficult lighting situation, the matrix system will not give you the slightest information on how to expose and develop the negative properly!

3 If misformation is based on ignorance, is there a reason to hide it? You are proud to continue to give misinformation? If one sees misinformation based on ignorance of the subject, should one keep quiet and let the newbie being led down the wrong path?

4 We are not talking about that here. Kindly keep to the topic.

5 I respect other's opinion. I do not respect misinformation. Please learn the difference!

6 The fact that Ken Rockwell can make good images with programme mode have nothing to do with the issues here. I have made good images with my point and shoot also. Keep to the topic please.

Another good point :thumbsup: we should have kopi one day

 

[singscott]

Hey why don't we meet up and have a public kopi forum on the subject. Just a through. Hehehe may be pro image can sponser the venue. :think: :think:

 

[dkw]

Ok,
never heard of ZS till I popped open this thread today, so I guess I qualify to be a newbie.

Please bear with my naive/ignorant questions;

1) Seeing as a big chunk of ZS relates to developing a negative and making prints, how much of it really relates to digital photography?

2) The parts that do relate to digital photography, how different are they from basic technical understanding of exposure values, f-stop, ISO, sensor performance wrt noise profiles/dynamic range, and post-processing skills using curves, noise reduction, blended exposures etc?

I shoot almost only exclusively digital and would just like to know how much this can help me.

TIA!

 

[student]

1"A photographer with great knowledge does not make him/her a good teacher."

2 There is no possible way to explain the basics fundamental of ZS on this thread.

3 So let's be a little more liberal about it and share whatever knowledge you have with the newbies.

4 As has been repeated from time to time. Everyone has their own opinion. Someone blind maybe leading another blind person into a pit hole but it's really up to the readers to choose.

5 I have approach one of the newbies about it and he is more than happy to drop by the studio to have a brief introduction about ZS in exchange for a cup of KOPI! Hehe....:bsmilie:

6 This is probably the best way to let them know what ZS is really is. QUOTE]

1 "A photographer with great knowledge does not make him/her a good a good teacher". True.

But "A photographer with great knowledge and a good teacher at the same time is a gem!"

2 Agree. That is why I did not even try to explain what ZS is about! What I have been doing is correcting all the misinformation that confuses.

3 We should share knowledge. Yes. But not wrong "knowledge". I did give a piece of wrong information in this thread, and that is regarding Harry Fearn's book. I immediately acknowledged my error when pointed out.

4 This I don't agree. When one sees a blind leading another blind into a dark hole, you just stand there and let them drop into the dark hole? You may do that. I won't.

And I do clearly differentiate between "opinions" and "information". If a question is "what do you think about Russell Wong's photography" I may just give my opinion and shut up. It is not for me to tell others what their opinions are. But information should be accurate. Granted, some may give information thinking the information was right. The spirit is there. But it doesn't mean another cannot try to correct the error.

5 Wonderful! And anyone, newbie or oldbie can approach me. I don't run a commercial studio nor do I conduct workshops. I have no ulterior motive. I have nothing to gain by you coming to me except to make another friend.
And people had come to me to learn film processing and printing, and I even provided the chemicals! There was once I even went to another photog's house to teach him printing. But there was a gain there. I had free dinner!

6 Not quite sure what you mean. But I think the best way to learn ZS is to just go out and shoot with someone who uses the ZS for negative exposure and development.

 

[knoxknocks]

...

And I do clearly differentiate between "opinions" and "information". If a question is "what do you think about Russell Wong's photography" I may just give my opinion and shut up. It is not for me to tell others what their opinions are. But information should be accurate. Granted, some may give information thinking the information was right. The spirit is there. But it doesn't mean another cannot try to correct the error.
...

I agree with you that misinformation should be corrected. But I feel that overzealousness can sometimes lead to a combative/condescending way of correcting. There's a difference between teaching and telling.

This is, afterall, an online forum and not everyone (eg me) has the ability to express him/herself in fully comprehensive manner. Like what ProImage says (and you agree) - better to meet face to face, shoot or do something that just talk about it

Peace.

 

[mulberrybay]

The ZA is just a method of getting a correct exposure based on how you imagine the final image is going to be when you do your printing. If you decide that a particular area of the image should be a zone 3, you take a spot meter reading of the area, close it down to 2 stops (5-2=3) and the other "zones" of the image will fall into place. The ZS is nowhere near mystical or technical. It just a method to determine the right exposure to match the image you have in your mind. For starters, please read something about the zone. Its is not essential, but it will definitely help when you want to know more about monochrome photography.

 

[student]

I agree with you that misinformation should be corrected. But I feel that overzealousness can sometimes lead to a combative/condescending way of correcting. There's a difference between teaching and telling.

This is, afterall, an online forum and not everyone (eg me) has the ability to express him/herself in fully comprehensive manner. Like what ProImage says (and you agree) - better to meet face to face, shoot or do something that just talk about it

Peace.

I almost wanted to say: "come to me, all ye who are..... and I will.....". Then I realised it was sacrilegious! Oops!

Condescending? I apologise if I sounded like it. But I do admit to have little patience for "he who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, and thinks he knows a lot, and goes out to confuse the know-nots with his know-not". Unfortunately this is a character flaw that I have not been able to correct for nearly half a century! So I beg your forgiveness!

On a much more serious note, I think Singscott's idea is good. Better still, a workshop. For what it is worth, I will offer my "service" for free. I am sure Singscott and others will also do it for free! Yes? Instead of just talking over coffee, a hands on! How about providing a space/venue, Pro Image? This will be a great service to the community!

 

[singscott]

Ok,
never heard of ZS till I popped open this thread today, so I guess I qualify to be a newbie.

Please bear with my naive/ignorant questions;

1) Seeing as a big chunk of ZS relates to developing a negative and making prints, how much of it really relates to digital photography?

2) The parts that do relate to digital photography, how different are they from basic technical understanding of exposure values, f-stop, ISO, sensor performance wrt noise profiles/dynamic range, and post-processing skills using curves, noise reduction, blended exposures etc?

I shoot almost only exclusively digital and would just like to know how much this can help me.

TIA!

Wow this may take a long time to explain man. Buy me kopi I think need a few cups to complete a topic like this one. But zone system is very much in line with digital photography but detail will too long to pen down in a forum :sweatsm:

 

[singscott]

Ok set up thread to create workshop for zone system :sweat:

 

[knoxknocks]

...But I do admit to have little patience for "he who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, and thinks he knows a lot, and goes out to confuse the know-nots with his know-not"....

Whoa...very "chim" :bsmilie: but I can understand your intentions.

:thumbsup: for the idea of a workshop on ZS! I will certainly attend if time permits!

 

[khairi]

Ok set up thread to create workshop for zone system :sweat:

hmmm...that sounds like tons of info in a single thread already...cool cool

 

[Pro Image]

I almost wanted to say: "come to me, all ye who are..... and I will.....". Then I realised it was sacrilegious! Oops!

Condescending? I apologise if I sounded like it. But I do admit to have little patience for "he who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, and thinks he knows a lot, and goes out to confuse the know-nots with his know-not". Unfortunately this is a character flaw that I have not been able to correct for nearly half a century! So I beg your forgiveness!

On a much more serious note, I think Singscott's idea is good. Better still, a workshop. For what it is worth, I will offer my "service" for free. I am sure Singscott and others will also do it for free! Yes? Instead of just talking over coffee, a hands on! How about providing a space/venue, Pro Image? This will be a great service to the community!

Eh me providing space and venue? I think not for now. I rather conduct ZS for those who newbies.

An expert like you and Singscott.......providing free service? Both of you will be a great service to the community. Not me. I can help those newbies just to let them know the fundamental basics and let them decide for themselves whether they are interested in the ZS. I rather give them a preview before joining the course.

student, I am sure you have enough retirement fund to live up to a 100 years old. For me, I am still young and still looking for more $$$. :bsmilie:

ZS is not a system where you just stop half way and give up. It's quite tedious and need plenty of time and effort to produce your Zone V. For now if I do conduct a course, it will be for the newbies only. And of course there is fees involve. :sweat:

Talking over coffee is a great to communicate with others. Nothing wrong with that. :thumbsup:

 

[quekky]

woah, very chim :sweat: think i'll need to read up more on what's ZS and compile a list of questions for u all experts

 

[singscott]

Wow lao who giving up? We just do introduction to zone system workshop for both film and digital user. In fact it will help newbie more. :sweatsm: