It would be beta if u do not compared wif land zone for commercial as it always the highest!
As for private there r also tenure to take into consideration!:sweat:
Simply cant compare! Sorry!
What is the actual cost of a HDB flat?
- Thread starter Silence Sky
- Start date
- Status
It would be beta if u do not compared wif land zone for commercial as it always the highest!
As for private there r also tenure to take into consideration!:sweat:
Simply cant compare! Sorry!
CYRN
Senior Member
Can't find any HDB annual accounts leh... that should give the best perspective...cost wise.
But the closest is DBSS or EC land price in the second link... for residential developments.
CYRN
Senior Member
Nevermind... found the answer liao... but still
http://www.parliament.gov.sg/parlweb/get_highlighted_content.jsp?docID=370502&hlLevel=Terms&links=HDB,FLAT,COST&hlWords=%20HDB%20flat%20cost%20&hlTitle=&queryOption=1&ref=http://www.parliament.gov.sg:80/reports/public/hansard/title/20040315/20040315_S0003_T0001.html#1secondly... for new HDB pricing, economics of supply and demand isn't the main motive... if you read this lengthy report..
lastly...voting in a govt doesn't means AUTOMATICALLY accepting everything the govt does... no one is perfect and there's always room for improvements.
erm, I don't see what's so hard about this HLE.
Or would you prefer the previous situation where buyers get to pay the option fee, pay the deposit, and then find out from HDB that they don't qualify for a loan, or that the loan amount is not up to what they expect, with the end result that they have to lapse the option and lose the option fee?
ahbian
Senior Member
Gosh, I guess the issue of ministeral pay always stirs up some emotions in me.
Drawing on the analogy that they run the country as an MNC and thus should be paid as the CEOs they are; then are the citizens analogous to its employees or stakeholders? Guess we are the employees- "not happy? quit (migrate) if you can afford it".Because if we are actually stakeholders, the CEOs are obliged to be more transparent to us in their operations.
To pay them highly so that they would not be corrupt is as someone famously put in, just another form of legalised corruption.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sg_Review/message/2428?l=1
On the issue of HDB being non-transparent in the issue of cost. Let me try to recap what happened during the run-in to the recent election, fellow forumers, do correct me if I give a wrong account.
Edmund Ng (SDA) claimed that a $250 K flat could be built for $70K, Mah BT then challenged Ng to back up his claims with a quotation. However, when Ng did "take up the challenge" and asked HDB for contractor details, Mah replied that there was no need for the HDB to "entertain Ng with any figures".
http://totallyconfused.blogspot.com/2006_04_30_totallyconfused_archive.html
You guys draw your own conclusions, but personally, I thought a chance to come clean and account to the voters was (deliberately?) passed over.
Singapore MAY be the top 20 in GDP, best airport, highest container volume, etc. but the idealist in me say that we should try gauging our HAPPINESS index, we will be nowhere near the top. Im sure there will be replies saying that there will be HAPPINES with wealth, thats the value we are (unfortunately) handing down the generations.
If my posting seemed harsh to the post I quoted, it was more of unhappiness to the situation of govt. transparency , and not the poster personally. Peace.
CYRN
Senior Member
At least those figures are supported statistically... can you refute it? :think:
But I know where you are coming from, statistics might not be a true reflection.
But the litmus test to this is the ability to use one's CPF to pay your housing loan without resorting to the need to top up... since (if you convinently ignore the employer's contrubution
) you are contributing about 20% of your pay to it. *Do note that it means 20% of household income.*edit* And I think figures are correct that 80%-90% of Sg population can afford a 3-rm flat...however the catch is that there aint' so many 3-rm flat built..so back to square one..gotta buy 4 rooms or 5 rooms.
CYRN
Senior Member
In parliament I read that Mr Mah mentioned the cost is in the annual HDB account report... however, I can't find it on the net anywhere.
*edit* to add on, there are $$$ for land for carparks, playgrounds, parks..etc. estimates for land prices are posted below. I'm sure Mr Ng also convinently left out of his calculations.
Silence Sky
Deregistered
Dear Waileong:
I have read your posts, and have noted your stand point of HDB should sell its flats at market price. However, this not a simple case of determining the flat transaction price, based purely on supply and demand.
Can I first identify with you that HDB is public service body and its mission is to supply and provide affordable housing to the people?
What most of us (commoners) are asking is not for HDB to sell flat below the cost, but to sell it a reasonable price that can be sustained over generations. There are a lot of reports on people facing negative equity and suffering from asset rich but cash poor syndrome.
I foresee that when this generation of people goes into retirement, the property bubble will burst, because these folks will have to sell their properties to finance their retirement.
So, should we starts looking into this problem and find the softest solution?
You mentioned that the reselling price in Marine Parade is $500K.
I belief this is one case off, and we cant simply use this transacted price to determine the market reselling price. This case could be one of those cash back transaction. The buyers and seller purposely jack up the selling price to get a bigger loan.
Public housing is unlike Condos and bungalows, the former is a basic necessity and the later is a luxury item. When we apply economic principle here, we say that Public housing is inelastic. Meaning that even the price is unreasonable, we (commoner) will still have to buy and absorb most of the burden. So can you see that is not basic supply and demand?
Secondly, Public housing is a highly, if not a completely monopolized market. Seller calls the shot and they in turn control the resell market. For example, when I sell a new flat at 150k, the resell flat will automatically be transacted at 190k because of the 40k subsidy. When I push up the price of a new flat to 200k, it is not hard to guess the price of the resell flat, isnt it? So who is the one controlling the price?
If supply and demand really applies in Singapore public housing, I would have expected the prices of those units in Jurong Extension to come crashing down. After completion for more than 5 years, most of the units are still empty. Taking into consideration the effect of depreciation and the flats have a limited life of 95 years left, what should be the selling price now? Again, this shows that the market is highly regulated.
Now it is about breaking this sticky price problem, Lets try to work it out here.
It is not nice to suggest migration because I belong to this land and my root is here.
Also those who can afford to migrate, have left and more will be leaving.
Those who are poor, like me, are waiting to cross the bridge when life no longer permits us to stay.
I have read your posts, and have noted your stand point of HDB should sell its flats at market price. However, this not a simple case of determining the flat transaction price, based purely on supply and demand.
Can I first identify with you that HDB is public service body and its mission is to supply and provide affordable housing to the people?
What most of us (commoners) are asking is not for HDB to sell flat below the cost, but to sell it a reasonable price that can be sustained over generations. There are a lot of reports on people facing negative equity and suffering from asset rich but cash poor syndrome.
I foresee that when this generation of people goes into retirement, the property bubble will burst, because these folks will have to sell their properties to finance their retirement.
So, should we starts looking into this problem and find the softest solution?
You mentioned that the reselling price in Marine Parade is $500K.
I belief this is one case off, and we cant simply use this transacted price to determine the market reselling price. This case could be one of those cash back transaction. The buyers and seller purposely jack up the selling price to get a bigger loan.
Public housing is unlike Condos and bungalows, the former is a basic necessity and the later is a luxury item. When we apply economic principle here, we say that Public housing is inelastic. Meaning that even the price is unreasonable, we (commoner) will still have to buy and absorb most of the burden. So can you see that is not basic supply and demand?
Secondly, Public housing is a highly, if not a completely monopolized market. Seller calls the shot and they in turn control the resell market. For example, when I sell a new flat at 150k, the resell flat will automatically be transacted at 190k because of the 40k subsidy. When I push up the price of a new flat to 200k, it is not hard to guess the price of the resell flat, isnt it? So who is the one controlling the price?
If supply and demand really applies in Singapore public housing, I would have expected the prices of those units in Jurong Extension to come crashing down. After completion for more than 5 years, most of the units are still empty. Taking into consideration the effect of depreciation and the flats have a limited life of 95 years left, what should be the selling price now? Again, this shows that the market is highly regulated.
Now it is about breaking this sticky price problem, Lets try to work it out here.
It is not nice to suggest migration because I belong to this land and my root is here.
Also those who can afford to migrate, have left and more will be leaving.
Those who are poor, like me, are waiting to cross the bridge when life no longer permits us to stay.
ahbian
Senior Member
yes, i agree, and I believe that his estimates are at the low end, perhaps one-room or two-room.
My point was on the dismissive attitude of Mah BT when he could have step up and quash all rumours.
Edmund Ng aside, many other Singaporeans deserve better than these vague and evasive replies by Mah BT.
CYRN
Senior Member
I doub't Mr Mah can answer satifactory without putting SLA in the spot.
totally agree with you silence. the way i think of it is pretty simplistic:
1. Singapore land space very little, land price very high if u want private.
2. Gahmen control all the land
3. Gahmen builds flats on the land. Acquires the land at virtually zero cost. Even if they say so, its from their left pocket to their right pocket.
4. Even though cost of actual flat cheap cheap, cost of land virtually zero, gahmen still sell flat to people at tremendously high cost versus actual land cost + small cost of building individual flat.
5. People not happy lor.
So the reason we're not happy is that is that the method the gahmen is using to control speculation (by allowing flats to go at market prices) is basically at an exorbitant profit compared to the actual cost (land=0 + building cost) that the gahmen actually expended producing the flat. They basically control the land for free, just because, our forefathers elected them. haha.
all this is good and well in the resale market. if u want to upgrade, you've got to pay a premium because all these factors will always be pegged to the prevailing private market. furthermore the gahmen monopoly has kept the prices at a fairly reasonable rate pegged to private, so not so bad.
if you're earning enough and doing well for yourself this won't really pose a problem. Problem arises for quite alot of us including myself, which are first time flat buyers and the needy. Rebate for sure is "peanuts" compared to actual amt that gahmen is making. Needy is often forced to rent flat because cannot pay deposit, get loan etc. In the end live from hand to mouth and no property ownership even tho pay like mad for rent.
bottomline is that these 2 groups need more help. the gahmen is financially able to give steep discounts for them. and they are likely to be receptive to stricter rules with regards to their flats and subsequent resale in exchange for greater financial aid. but so it seems the gahmen isn't really interested in making concessions.
and i haven't even started on all the poor guys caught in the market crash man...sigh...will be getting my first flat sooner than i think...so much to think about
contaxable
New Member
Consider it a blessing to have a roof over (almost) everyone's head, but a curse to be perpectually paying for one.
Once, there was a cleaner who changed from 4BR to 3br since the 4br was in huge demand at that time. I warned him before the transaction to really go calculate the monthly installment part with the hdb officer. He ignored me totally as he was quite attracted by the small gain from sale of flat. But after the transaction, due to his existing high loan and other requirements (tariffs) towards the sale, not only he did he lived in a smaller flat, he ended up paying more for the monthly installment for his resale 3br flat. He was living hand to mouth before the purchase; after the purhcase, he was devastated as he needed to top up cash for the difference monthly.
So for those who wants an upgrade/downgrade, do not just follow the herd. Some have wings and they can leap off the cliff. For some others, they fall right into the swamp and struggle through life, hardly making ends meet.
Is the cost of hdb excessively inflated? Yes.
Who are the culprits? Market forces (and the media).
But can we help it? No, our arms not long enough to reach the height of the tall ladder.
What can we do? Work harder & live more meaningfully.:sweat:
And also... pray we win toto some day
Once, there was a cleaner who changed from 4BR to 3br since the 4br was in huge demand at that time. I warned him before the transaction to really go calculate the monthly installment part with the hdb officer. He ignored me totally as he was quite attracted by the small gain from sale of flat. But after the transaction, due to his existing high loan and other requirements (tariffs) towards the sale, not only he did he lived in a smaller flat, he ended up paying more for the monthly installment for his resale 3br flat. He was living hand to mouth before the purchase; after the purhcase, he was devastated as he needed to top up cash for the difference monthly.
So for those who wants an upgrade/downgrade, do not just follow the herd. Some have wings and they can leap off the cliff. For some others, they fall right into the swamp and struggle through life, hardly making ends meet.
Is the cost of hdb excessively inflated? Yes.
Who are the culprits? Market forces (and the media).
But can we help it? No, our arms not long enough to reach the height of the tall ladder.
What can we do? Work harder & live more meaningfully.:sweat:
And also... pray we win toto some day
1. I never said HDB should sell at market price. I said HDB should sell at below market price, but not that much below that it would cause the resale flat prices to come crashing down.
2. Supply and demand applies everywhere, even for HDB. Why did the Tampines designer flats have so many applicants despite the high price? Why are Jurong West extension flats empty? The former, because of demand. The latter, because HDB (unfortunately) is not that market oriented, so they refused to cut prices enough to move the flats.
The demand curve is not always linear. For some products, demand is so weak that no matter what you do, no one will buy. Hence companies have to write off inventories from time to time.
3. I don't believe in HDB's mission any more. In the early years, to help people move from kampong to city, yes. Nowadays, with designer flats, etc? To me they are just another housing developer with a side mission of making housing more "affordable". As far as MBT is concerned, "affordable" just means that your monthly instalments are less than 40% of your household income.
4. I still don't think HDB can sell flats at (say) $100k if the resale price is $400k. That would cause the market to crash. The govt would be using its powers unjustly to acquire land cheaply and sell flats cheaply. It would be unfair competition to the private sector developers. It could even affect the private condo market, bring prices there down. With things the way they are, who will suffer? Those who have sunk millions into their condos will suffer, for sure. As well as those who have sunk millions into their HDB resale flats.
5. I just sold my Bishan 5-room flat at $400k. I made a loss because I bought it for $402k and did renovations. This is an 18-year old resale unit. $400k-- willing buyer, willing seller. Go check the latest prices in Marine Parade, high floor, sea view, etc. and you'll know what the prices are today. Queenstown EA's are selling for $500-600k. That's the reality people are willing to pay for.
6. Public housing is not a basic necessity. Not like healthcare, where you'll die if you don't get treatment. Frankly speaking, nobody forces you to buy a flat. And nobody force you to buy from HDB. Yes, you want to move out, but in other countries people rent, some rent for a very long time.
A lot of first-timers buy on the resale market. Why? Location is the prime reason. Not everybody wants to live in Sengkang/Bt Panjang. A lot of people prefer the mature estates, where there are no more new HDB flats. Thus the govt came up with the CPF housing grant to help people purchase resale flats.
Public housing prices are not inelastic. The resale market has moved up and down as many are well aware. Back in 96, Bishan EA's were selling for $700k. Now they are selling for $400-500k. That is a lot of price movement in action.
That is not to say HDB prices are elastic. They as sellers decide what price they want to sell. Unlike private developers, they are not so worried about P&L, inventory turnover, etc. So they choose not to cut prices. This has nothing to do with regulation, and everything to do with holding power. There is no regulation in Singapore that says HDB must sell prices at $X psf. Only that the CEO of HDB decided he doesn't want to cut prices of flats in Jurong West extension.
So the HDB prices are higher than what you as a first-timer were hoping for. I think the question to ask yourself is, is it realistic to expect HDB to sell flats at $100k when the market price is $400k or $500k? And even if HDB were to do that, no doubt first-timers like you would be happy, but what about all your neighbours living in their resale flats?
The sad thing is that most of those people who buy direct sell after 5 years to lock in the gains so that they can "upgrade" to condos. They don't keep the flat over the "generations". Some people even do it a second time, to try to get one more bite of the cherry.
Using your example, the resale price of HDB flat is far more complicated than just adding the CPF housing grant to HDB's direct selling price. However, the point it makes is clear-- that the market takes one of the cues from HDB prices. So if HDB were to sell the recent Tampines flats at $100k, all the Tampines prices will come crashing down.
Who will suffer?
"Public housing is a highly, if not a completely monopolized market."... True technically since only there is only one seller called HDB. However, HDB doesn't exist in a vacuum, there is no way they can sell more than what people are willing to pay, and they cannot sell more expensive than the resale market, and certainly not more than private condos.
In other words, HDB's ability to set prices is limited too.
In my case, I bought my flat on the resale market 7 years ago at $402k. I heard (but not confirmed) that HDB originally sold these flats in 1988 at $120k (or was it $220k?). The point is that, 18 years ago, resale market prices for 5-room flats in Bishan was around $200k, so HDB priced it at $120k. 11 years after the direct buyer got it for $120k, he could sell it to me at $402k. That was the market price in 1999. It was not HDB who set the resale market price. It was set by buyers and sellers in the resale market.
Now, HDB is building a new flat at the junction ofBishan St 11 and St 13, near mine. Do you think they can or should sell the new flats at $120k, when the market price of a flat in Bishan is $400k? On the other hand, if they were to sell it at $400k, how many people do you think will queue and ballot and buy, when they can get it immediately on the resale market?
You are right about one thing-- that whatever the price HDB sets, we have to take if we want to buy their flats. Not because they are a monopoly, but because they are the cheapest, and we are just price takers. So even if we don't think that $300k is a reasonable price for a 5-room flat, we still have no choice, because the resale flats will cost us even more, don't mention condo.
"Reasonable" or not depends on who you're talking to. A lot of Hongkongers bought flats here simply because they were so cheap compared to HK. On the other hand, we have people here complaining about the price of flats here and saying that $500k can get big bungalow in a neighbouring country. But sadly, that is the reality of property prices in a small country. If you think HDB owes it to the people to make 5-room flats at $100k, then you'd better vote in a different government.
2. Supply and demand applies everywhere, even for HDB. Why did the Tampines designer flats have so many applicants despite the high price? Why are Jurong West extension flats empty? The former, because of demand. The latter, because HDB (unfortunately) is not that market oriented, so they refused to cut prices enough to move the flats.
The demand curve is not always linear. For some products, demand is so weak that no matter what you do, no one will buy. Hence companies have to write off inventories from time to time.
3. I don't believe in HDB's mission any more. In the early years, to help people move from kampong to city, yes. Nowadays, with designer flats, etc? To me they are just another housing developer with a side mission of making housing more "affordable". As far as MBT is concerned, "affordable" just means that your monthly instalments are less than 40% of your household income.
4. I still don't think HDB can sell flats at (say) $100k if the resale price is $400k. That would cause the market to crash. The govt would be using its powers unjustly to acquire land cheaply and sell flats cheaply. It would be unfair competition to the private sector developers. It could even affect the private condo market, bring prices there down. With things the way they are, who will suffer? Those who have sunk millions into their condos will suffer, for sure. As well as those who have sunk millions into their HDB resale flats.
5. I just sold my Bishan 5-room flat at $400k. I made a loss because I bought it for $402k and did renovations. This is an 18-year old resale unit. $400k-- willing buyer, willing seller. Go check the latest prices in Marine Parade, high floor, sea view, etc. and you'll know what the prices are today. Queenstown EA's are selling for $500-600k. That's the reality people are willing to pay for.
6. Public housing is not a basic necessity. Not like healthcare, where you'll die if you don't get treatment. Frankly speaking, nobody forces you to buy a flat. And nobody force you to buy from HDB. Yes, you want to move out, but in other countries people rent, some rent for a very long time.
A lot of first-timers buy on the resale market. Why? Location is the prime reason. Not everybody wants to live in Sengkang/Bt Panjang. A lot of people prefer the mature estates, where there are no more new HDB flats. Thus the govt came up with the CPF housing grant to help people purchase resale flats.
Public housing prices are not inelastic. The resale market has moved up and down as many are well aware. Back in 96, Bishan EA's were selling for $700k. Now they are selling for $400-500k. That is a lot of price movement in action.
That is not to say HDB prices are elastic. They as sellers decide what price they want to sell. Unlike private developers, they are not so worried about P&L, inventory turnover, etc. So they choose not to cut prices. This has nothing to do with regulation, and everything to do with holding power. There is no regulation in Singapore that says HDB must sell prices at $X psf. Only that the CEO of HDB decided he doesn't want to cut prices of flats in Jurong West extension.
So the HDB prices are higher than what you as a first-timer were hoping for. I think the question to ask yourself is, is it realistic to expect HDB to sell flats at $100k when the market price is $400k or $500k? And even if HDB were to do that, no doubt first-timers like you would be happy, but what about all your neighbours living in their resale flats?
The sad thing is that most of those people who buy direct sell after 5 years to lock in the gains so that they can "upgrade" to condos. They don't keep the flat over the "generations". Some people even do it a second time, to try to get one more bite of the cherry.
Using your example, the resale price of HDB flat is far more complicated than just adding the CPF housing grant to HDB's direct selling price. However, the point it makes is clear-- that the market takes one of the cues from HDB prices. So if HDB were to sell the recent Tampines flats at $100k, all the Tampines prices will come crashing down.
Who will suffer?
"Public housing is a highly, if not a completely monopolized market."... True technically since only there is only one seller called HDB. However, HDB doesn't exist in a vacuum, there is no way they can sell more than what people are willing to pay, and they cannot sell more expensive than the resale market, and certainly not more than private condos.
In other words, HDB's ability to set prices is limited too.
In my case, I bought my flat on the resale market 7 years ago at $402k. I heard (but not confirmed) that HDB originally sold these flats in 1988 at $120k (or was it $220k?). The point is that, 18 years ago, resale market prices for 5-room flats in Bishan was around $200k, so HDB priced it at $120k. 11 years after the direct buyer got it for $120k, he could sell it to me at $402k. That was the market price in 1999. It was not HDB who set the resale market price. It was set by buyers and sellers in the resale market.
Now, HDB is building a new flat at the junction ofBishan St 11 and St 13, near mine. Do you think they can or should sell the new flats at $120k, when the market price of a flat in Bishan is $400k? On the other hand, if they were to sell it at $400k, how many people do you think will queue and ballot and buy, when they can get it immediately on the resale market?
You are right about one thing-- that whatever the price HDB sets, we have to take if we want to buy their flats. Not because they are a monopoly, but because they are the cheapest, and we are just price takers. So even if we don't think that $300k is a reasonable price for a 5-room flat, we still have no choice, because the resale flats will cost us even more, don't mention condo.
"Reasonable" or not depends on who you're talking to. A lot of Hongkongers bought flats here simply because they were so cheap compared to HK. On the other hand, we have people here complaining about the price of flats here and saying that $500k can get big bungalow in a neighbouring country. But sadly, that is the reality of property prices in a small country. If you think HDB owes it to the people to make 5-room flats at $100k, then you'd better vote in a different government.
Of cos to me it will be beta dat HLE is obtain juz like LO from the banks, in this way it is more secure for us n our clients!
But for those who r temperoary unemployed, no monthly CPF contribution or inconsistence contribution they mite nt be granted the HDB loan (granted in the past) but they r able to clear their monthly installment! :think:
Dear Waileong:
....
You mentioned that the reselling price in Marine Parade is $500K.
I belief this is one case off, and we cant simply use this transacted price to determine the market reselling price. This case could be one of those cash back transaction. The buyers and seller purposely jack up the selling price to get a bigger loan.
I beg to differ nt all hi price r due to cash back(mind u this is unlike the taxi driver case n wif recent changes and action taken by govt. it is almost 0% to do cashback). If u look at the transcation prices through out the years in Marine Parade is always hi and a 3rm will easily cost u about $250K or more(in some place u mite be able to get a 5rm!) and dats a norm over there! Why? owners thinks dat their location is best in singapore! Same wif Bishan, Toa Payoh, Clementi, City area, Redhill....
Public housing is unlike Condos and bungalows, the former is a basic necessity and the later is a luxury item. When we apply economic principle here, we say that Public housing is inelastic. Meaning that even the price is unreasonable, we (commoner) will still have to buy and absorb most of the burden. So can you see that is not basic supply and demand?
It is all about supply n demand if not why the govern. stop building EA n 5rm but built 4rm 3rm n 2rm? Why they need to break up bigger unts 5rm and abv into 2rm or 3rm? Isnt it becos on the demand in smaller units n bigger units nt in demand dats resulted in the abv?
Secondly, Public housing is a highly, if not a completely monopolized market. Seller calls the shot and they in turn control the resell market. For example, when I sell a new flat at 150k, the resell flat will automatically be transacted at 190k because of the 40k subsidy. When I push up the price of a new flat to 200k, it is not hard to guess the price of the resell flat, isnt it? So who is the one controlling the price?
I dun understand how u can sell $150k and transcate at $190k? (unless u do cashback
QUOTE]
A point to note: buying a HDB flat at $100k will not fetch $400k or $500k in the resale market! At most it will fetch abt $60k-$80K more then purchase price in most area! unless u r in the prime location say u buy abt $200k u can expect abt another $150k-$180k more then purchase price. all these will onli happen if it is 5yrs of brand new flats n the location they r in!
And nt all HDB first timer will enjoyed this benifits u ask those who bought the 1st n 2nd batch of flats in sengkang some of thier valutaion for resale is even lower then their purchase price or abt the same! Most of them selling at a lost!
Depending on at which state he is serving his loan? best is wif in the first few years of loan cos dat is the time when people r servicing the interest of their loan be it HDB or Bank loan, rather then the principal!
Most people will prefer to cut short their loan term or redeam no matter which state of loan he is servicing, So they can reduced the accrude interest! which is quite a huge amt
Especially the economy now n there r no iron rice bowl le...:bsmilie:
One has to do his own calculations n planning before redeaming his loan!
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