What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

[Agetan]

But isnt that the issue here? That even you are unable to say whats a reasonable standard rate. Then how to say what is low!? You realize the contradiction here?

They HAVE found out their own rate, and its NOT to sustain a biz or even to feed a family etc, often just for xtra pocket $$ which they're happy to do at ANY rate! AND so its reasonable to them.

This is how things work.
If we agree an average packet of chicken rice is say $2.50. THEN we can say someone selling $1.50 is low and 'no backbone' whatever..
BUT! you must be able to 1st say whats the average mkt price that taste reasonable!, not debate whether $1.50 is enough for that stall.
Else there is NO BASIS FOR COMPARISION!

Erm, do you get the point here..?:dunno:

er hope I dnt kanna banned lol , just discussion..

I think bro Catchlight didn't mentioned about the price because I think he think you are not ready for it.

If you want a figure as a professional photographer, you should at least bring in a revenue of $10-$15k a month every month to be sustainable. If you do your math right, you should left with 35-50% profit. Now, you can only live off your profit. There are money for servicing, advertising and promotion, etc.

So you divide that amount with total shoot you do a month and that should be your charge per assignment. If you do 10 shoots a month, average should be $1-1.5k. If you do 4 weddings, it should be $2.5-$3.8k a wedding.

I think this is sustainable in today's economy climate but without much left over at the end of the day if you are married with children. Single and still stay at home, sure, you can lower that a little bit if you want.

At the end of the day, as a professional, you need to sustain your living and if photography bring your the income, I think the revenue is very realistic for long term business survival.

So there you are...

I don't consider lower charge photographer spoils the market, but I know life isn't as easy for them.

As a photographer, I want to be able to purchase any equipment that I love shooting, shoot from a nice and comfortable studio of my own. This give me part of the joy of being doing what I love.

Regards,

Hart

 

[fotoudavid]

But isnt that the issue here? That even you are unable to say whats a reasonable standard rate. Then how to say what is low!? You realize the contradiction here?

They HAVE found out their own rate, and its NOT to sustain a biz or even to feed a family etc, often just for xtra pocket $$ which they're happy to do at ANY rate! AND so its reasonable to them.

This is how things work.
If we agree an average packet of chicken rice is say $2.50. THEN we can say someone selling $1.50 is low and 'no backbone' whatever..
BUT! you must be able to 1st say whats the average mkt price that taste reasonable!, not debate whether $1.50 is enough for that stall.
Else there is NO BASIS FOR COMPARISION!

Erm, do you get the point here..?:dunno:

er hope I dnt kanna banned lol , just discussion..

You dun earn extra pocket money without first realizing the expensive costing first.

wedding 12 hours, equipment $6000, computers $3000...... basic.

Then editing for another 10 hours you if you are fast. yet to calculate electricity, food, etc etc...... double A batteries also cost.

if you charge $700 for the wedding, take away $80 as transport that day, left $620.... then take away $150 for equipment, which takes roughly 40 weddings.

then $50 for computers, which roughly takes 60 weddings......

electricity, telephone, all basic taken care by parents, so free.....

yet to take meetings with couples, deliver or whatever.... left $420, divide by 22 hours, is $19 about per hour.

you tell me is this the do able market rate?

ok, so newbie says they must start some where, right....

start by doing the right thing.... that is list down your cost first.....

NOTE: i am not harsh here, my harsh is been scolded left right centre.... i learn as an assistance many years ago carrying equipment, make coffee, cut grass at 12pm, scolded in front of clients by shifu, do a lot of assistance job, sweat like hell..... just to learn.... that is also not harsh.... so sometimes i felt young people now a days so pampered, got internet, ask questions, senior give reply kena scolded......

 

[catchlights]

let us take a person who want to do a photography as sideline,

let say his salary is $2000.00, working 44 hours a week, so his is hour salary is $46.00 (round off)

he only has 55 hours free time per week to do moonlighting (minus sleeping time, dinner time, wash up and time for commuting between home and work daily) but most assignments fall on weekends, so he only has 16 hours shooting time the max, the rest of the time spending on post production and admins work.

he spend 10k on gears, computer, monitor calibrating device, software etc to do moonlighting, he plan to recover 10k within 3 years period, so each weekends the cost is $32, and if go by using them 10 hours per week to make money, the cost per hour is $6.50

we take this person able to secure 2 assignments with duration of 3 hours per week, he need to spend two hours for packing gears and commuting, one hour on communication with customers from enquiry till closing, 0.5hr for shoot and burn CD style, 2hrs for simple editing for each assignment.

on this example, he only has 6 hours of chargeable hours, and spending 14.5 hours working on it. his salary and cost for the 14.5 hour is $1094.75, [14.5 hours * ($46.00*1.5)+ $6.50], 1.5 is overtime rate. 14.5hours is consider one assignment is shoot and burn, and the other need some editing.

for this 6 hours assignments, he need to charge not lesser than $1094.75 to make a break even, that is still not adding in any profit yet.




and now we use wedding assignment for an example,

a wedding day shoot is from 7am to 11pm, total duration 16 hours (for the break time photographer won't able to take any other assignment so he need to factor that to)
communication on phone/emails, meeting with customers, delivery CD, commuting between brides home, hotel and home, 4 hours
simple editing no printing, 3 hours

total time spent, 23 hours,
so his salary and cost for the 23 hour is $2035.50, [23 hours * ($46.00*1.5)+ $6.50*3], 1.5 is overtime rate. $6.50*3 is because using it more than 8 hours a day.
charging $2033.50 for a wedding day shoot is just break even.




If he not able to charge more than this, might as well stay in his office and earning his overtime pay. that is even much lower risk and lesser investment.

please also note we didn't factor in many other expenses here is to make the calculation more simple, there are many hidden cost when we doing any business, without factoring them, it does not make us more profitable.

 

[OoStarDustoO]

I think bro Catchlight didn't mentioned about the price because I think he think you are not ready for it.

If you want a figure as a professional photographer, you should at least bring in a revenue of $10-$15k a month every month to be sustainable. If you do your math right, you should left with 35-50% profit. Now, you can only live off your profit. There are money for servicing, advertising and promotion, etc.

So you divide that amount with total shoot you do a month and that should be your charge per assignment. If you do 10 shoots a month, average should be $1-1.5k. If you do 4 weddings, it should be $2.5-$3.8k a wedding.

I think this is sustainable in today's economy climate but without much left over at the end of the day if you are married with children. Single and still stay at home, sure, you can lower that a little bit if you want.

At the end of the day, as a professional, you need to sustain your living and if photography bring your the income, I think the revenue is very realistic for long term business survival.

So there you are...

I don't consider lower charge photographer spoils the market, but I know life isn't as easy for them.

As a photographer, I want to be able to purchase any equipment that I love shooting, shoot from a nice and comfortable studio of my own. This give me part of the joy of being doing what I love.

Regards,

Hart

I read a few remarks and are all from a "professional" point of view.

How about point of view of a hobbyist.

If a hobbyist keeps his camera in his dry cabinet and never bring out to shoot, the camera value will still depreciate, not as if the value will be retained.

If a person buys a television, the value of television will still drop, and who to cover this depreciation cost? It is no secret that value equipment will depreciate.

And when someone voices the point of view of a hobbyist, those thoughts are being labelled as stupid, naive, no planning, never give thought etc.

But that is a professional's problem and only professional see them as problem.

A hobbyist does not see those mentioned as a problem at all.

At the end of the day, bash the hobbyist all you want but he is still happy to get those pay and there is no one can change it.

With those small sums, it slowly adds up, and eventually investing in better equipment and slowly increase their rate from there.

No offence here, just trying to point out these points, which is the blind spot to some professionals.

I am sure some professionals also started out the same way as some of the hobbyists as they do not have the luxury of starting big.

 

[OoStarDustoO]

let us take a person who want to do a photography as sideline,

let say his salary is $2000.00, working 44 hours a week, so his is hour salary is $46.00 (round off)

he only has 55 hours free time per week to do moonlighting (minus sleeping time, dinner time, wash up and time for commuting between home and work daily) but most assignments fall on weekends, so he only has 16 hours shooting time the max, the rest of the time spending on post production and admins work.

he spend 10k on gears, computer, monitor calibrating device, software etc to do moonlighting, he plan to recover 10k within 3 years period, so each weekends the cost is $32, and if go by using them 10 hours per week to make money, the cost per hour is $6.50

we take this person able to secure 2 assignments with duration of 3 hours per week, he need to spend two hours for packing gears and commuting, one hour on communication with customers from enquiry till closing, 0.5hr for shoot and burn CD style, 2hrs for simple editing for each assignment.

on this example, he only has 6 hours of chargeable hours, and spending 14.5 hours working on it. his salary and cost for the 14.5 hour is $1094.75, [14.5 hours * ($46.00*1.5)+ $6.50], 1.5 is overtime rate. 14.5hours is consider one assignment is shoot and burn, and the other need some editing.

for this 6 hours assignments, he need to charge not lesser than $1094.75 to make a break even, that is still not adding in any profit yet.




and now we use wedding assignment for an example,

a wedding day shoot is from 7am to 11pm, total duration 16 hours (for the break time photographer won't able to take any other assignment so he need to factor that to)
communication on phone/emails, meeting with customers, delivery CD, commuting between brides home, hotel and home, 4 hours
simple editing no printing, 3 hours

total time spent, 23 hours,
so his salary and cost for the 23 hour is $2035.50, [23 hours * ($46.00*1.5)+ $6.50*3], 1.5 is overtime rate. $6.50*3 is because using it more than 8 hours a day.
charging $2033.50 for a wedding day shoot is just break even.

If he not able to charge more than this, might as well stay in his office and earning his overtime pay. that is even much lower risk and lesser investment.

please also note we didn't factor in many other expenses here is to make the calculation more simple, there are many hidden cost when we doing any business, without factoring them, it does not make us more profitable.

What about the passion and hobby portion?

So as a hobbyist, i took photos during overseas and i got hundreds of photo and i love to edit those photos. Can i say i am wasting my own time and money?

I can't even break even, plus everything else that were mentioned, i am making a huge loss.

What i am trying to say, if a person don't look at it from a "job" point of view, they can accept lower rate, and by saying lower rate, i definitely don't agree that $100.00 is a acceptable rate. It is rather sad, but people still took it up.

And no, not many company pay OT today.

According to the MOM law, those who are earning 2k and below are entitled to OT, which is ok for your example.

But if a person earns $2001, he is not covered by law to be paid OT.

 

[catchlights]

many junior photographers will just take whatever customers offering them, so they themself don't know value their time, talent, and efforts, how do they expect their customers to understand this?

when you not charging for what you deserve, you are just given your time, talent and money to the customers for almost noting, and yet customers will demanding you for more.**

(when we price ourself correctly and everything is chargeable, our customers know we are doing business and willing to spend money on us with trust, but if you are super cheap, customers will keep asking for more and more thing from you to test your limit)



so anyone decide to shoot any assignments for free or for cheap, nobody can stop them except they themself

just remember this, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me".

 

[sjackal]

I read a few remarks and are all from a "professional" point of view.

How about point of view of a hobbyist.

What about the passion and hobby portion?

Bro, no offense but this is the Photo biz section so it is assumed that the readers here are interested in the business of pro photography. Hobbyists forum sections on Clubsnap are all the rest of the forum sections except Photo Biz and Video Biz.

The hobbyists can charge career-and-market-destroying rates and the pros cannot control that, but what the pros can do is to educate those interested in entering the pro photography line, which is I believe the main purpose of this forum section.

IMHO.

 

[catchlights]

What about the passion and hobby portion?

So as a hobbyist, i took photos during overseas and i got hundreds of photo and i love to edit those photos. Can i say i am wasting my own time and money?

I can't even break even, plus everything else that were mentioned, i am making a huge loss.

What i am trying to say, if a person don't look at it from a "job" point of view, they can accept lower rate, and by saying lower rate, i definitely don't agree that $100.00 is a acceptable rate. It is rather sad, but people still took it up.

And no, not many company pay OT today.

According to the MOM law, those who are earning 2k and below are entitled to OT, which is ok for your example.

But if a person earns $2001, he is not covered by law to be paid OT.

when you shoot for yourself, is a hobby.

when you shoot for others, is a job.

do you like to do a job without being compensate accordingly?

so likewise, work out your own sum, your expecting salary, your cost and expenses, and your profit margin,

please don't ask people on what is a reasonable rate, that depends on how hardup you want to shoot for an assignment.

let me show you this video, hope you can understand better....

Guest Post-Will Terry-How much do you charge? - Once Upon A Sketch

 

[OoStarDustoO]

Bro, no offense but this is the Photo biz section so it is assumed that the readers here are interested in the business of pro photography. Hobbyists forum sections on Clubsnap are all the rest of the forum sections except Photo Biz and Video Biz.

The hobbyists can charge career-and-market-destroying rates and the pros cannot control that, but what the pros can do is to educate those interested in entering the pro photography line, which is I believe the main purpose of this forum section.

IMHO.

Aiyo, you liddat say also makes sense la.

Photography is one of the very unique thing that can be both a profession and hobby in Singapore therefore this clash between hobbyist and pro.

This will always pose a threat on the photography business.

If i were a professional, i would have felt the frustration too. And since this thing is really happening, i can understand why some seniors are taking time to type lengthy replies and are educating people like me on the hidden cost involved.

I indeed learnt something from here.

But it's just that sometimes there is also a need for the pro to see from the side of hobbyist, to understand why this person is doing it instead of blind bashing upon see certain people offering certain rate.

Everyone has a different story.

 

[saberlancer]

Thks for the calculations and analysis, I'm sure tht'll be very useful for anyone considering photography as a biz..

However, heres the key, We are talking mainly about hobbyists not pros! Save for few of those pros who're charging low low rates, shame on them..

When Hobbyist takes on a job, you cannot use the same formula for them. Surely you recognize that?..

 

[wakaowalao]

Is Clubsnap a place for these cheapos/freebos?

Anyone is happy to take pathetic rates jobs for passion, hobby, or just for fun, so be it... BUT why do it openly here and obviously all suckers will come looking for goondus here.

I don't own CS, I don't earn BIG money from photography but still I repeat myself again, I don't wish to see CS turning into a breeding grounds for all cheapos/freebos. Get it?

 

[saberlancer]

When hobbyist shoots, yes its a job..
But do I feel the need to be compensated, well No! Its not a need, bt Yes it'll be nice. But maybe just food and transport is enough.

This is how I feel, well I could be alone on this, in that case just ignore me..lol

Well I do agree its sad if CS becomes a hunting ground for cheapos. So may I ask 'is CS a site for hobbyist or Pros'? Both you say?

 

[OoStarDustoO]

when you shoot for yourself, is a hobby.

when you shoot for others, is a job.

do you like to do a job without being compensate accordingly?

so likewise, work out your own sum, your expecting salary, your cost and expenses, and your profit margin,

please don't ask people on what is a reasonable rate, that depends on how hardup you want to shoot for an assignment.

let me show you this video, hope you can understand better....

Guest Post-Will Terry-How much do you charge? - Once Upon A Sketch

Am listening to the video now. Seems very relevant. Thanks!

 

[Errz]

think sometimes u have to go thru the process then u will understand.

Been there and quit because of one new member in my family and i treasure that more than anything else. Everyday after work,wash up, dinner..i sit at the computer and start editing photos, doing up album..etc. not much time left for family.

its not about if u r doing it as full time or sideline.. u need to know how much u r worth. not just because "aiyah, i am only doing as hobbyist..so why bother charging too low". everything has a price.. ur skill set, ur equipment , ur time.

Aiyo, you liddat say also makes sense la.

Photography is one of the very unique thing that can be both a profession and hobby in Singapore therefore this clash between hobbyist and pro.

This will always pose a threat on the photography business.

If i were a professional, i would have felt the frustration too. And since this thing is really happening, i can understand why some seniors are taking time to type lengthy replies and are educating people like me on the hidden cost involved.

I indeed learnt something from here.

But it's just that sometimes there is also a need for the pro to see from the side of hobbyist, to understand why this person is doing it instead of blind bashing upon see certain people offering certain rate.

Everyone has a different story.

 

[catchlights]

Thks for the calculations and analysis, I'm sure tht'll be very useful for anyone considering photography as a biz..

However, heres the key, We are talking mainly about hobbyists not pros! Save for few of those pros who're charging low low rates, shame on them..

When Hobbyist takes on a job, you cannot use the same formula for them. Surely you recognize that?..

like I say before, if a hobbyist don't intend to make profit or recovering the cost and expenses, just want to sponsor their customers, nobody can stop that.


and FYI, the only people who curse hobbyists for doing that are the same people charging same rate but not able to get the assignments.

 

[catchlights]

if you say you shoot whatever assignment is for PASSION, not about money,

all I can say is just BS.


yes, you do something you like, love, strong feeling about it, yes, that is passion.

but shooting an assignment, a job, is no longer about you, it is not about your work, your art, your photography or your love, you are shooting what people tell you to do so, and how can you say that is about passion?

if base on Passion, is just depends on your feeling, so you happy you come, when you not happy, just anyhow shoot or no show

maybe one job you can tahan, two jobs still can do, 5 jobs.... you will try, than how about many jobs? than you need to be like Mother Teresa.


So, you just can't say you shoot for others is for passion, you need to be a Saint than able to to that, there rest of us is just mortal, we need the money!!

 

[fotoudavid]

when a hobbyist takes on a job, the client expect professionals job to be done.... right?? unless the clients knows a hobbyist is coming so dun expect much since paying cheap??

 

[OoStarDustoO]

if you say you shoot whatever assignment is for PASSION, not about money,

all I can say is just BS.


yes, you do something you like, love, strong feeling about it, yes, that is passion.

but shooting an assignment, a job, is no longer about you, it is not about your work, your art, your photography or your love, you are shooting what people tell you to do so, and how can you say that is about passion?

if base on Passion, is just depends on your feeling, so you happy you come, when you not happy, just anyhow shoot or no show

maybe one job you can tahan, two jobs still can do, 5 jobs.... you will try, than how about many jobs? than you need to be like Mother Teresa.


So, you just can't say you shoot for others is for passion, you need to be a Saint than able to to that, there rest of us is just mortal, we need the money!!

Is liddat one ma. Haven kana tekan by clients so don't know the feeling yet.

So those who accepted job on cheap rate are these kind of passionate photographers who had just started out.

Nothing wrong what.

But the person exploiting a $100.00 cheap photographer then abit........

 

[OoStarDustoO]

when a hobbyist takes on a job, the client expect professionals job to be done.... right?? unless the clients knows a hobbyist is coming so dun expect much since paying cheap??

You know some hobbyist can shoot very good photo too right?

Ok putting that aside, if i am paying $100 for a photographer for 4 hours of job, i will know what to expect to be honest.

If client has unrealistic expectation on budget photographer, then they should go fly kite.

 

[catchlights]

Hi, All.

The purpose for "Services Wanted" is to facilitate the purpose of "Post in this section if you are looking for photography-related services."

A person looking for budget photographers can come to this section and "advertise" their requirements without the need to do much work since they just put up a post and alot of people will answer to it.

There are already sections that cater to promote "Photographers" and "Commerical Services" in "Photography Services Directory" and "Commercial Services Offered" section. Regardless of whether the person is looking for budget photographers or pro photographers, they can contact the respective photographers or services provider thru the contact information from the posting in the relevant section.

Therefore I do not see a need for this section. There is a search function available in Clubsnap to look for specific keywords to narrow their search results should they need to locate the photographer or service provider.

In addition, it will also require serious photographers or service providers (irregardless of part-time, hobbist and full time) to post in the respective directory to advertise their work. This will require them to think about how to market themselves in the posting to attract the customers they want.

I understand that there are photographers, MUA, Stylist and model starting out who wishes to build their portfolio. They will need to start somewhere to build up their portfolio. Perhaps a "Request for Collaboration" section can be created dedicated to help budding photographers, MUA, Stylist and model to build their portfolio by advertising project for collaboration. When the photographer or service provider have something to show, they will have confidence to ask for appropriate compensation for their works. Promoting collaboration also helps to build relationship among photographers, MUA, models and Stylist.

Just my 1 cent opinion on this topic.

Benjamin.

Bro ywtan9 sharing his opinion on Services Wanted section,

I copy the post to start a new thread in FAQ and Feedback section to focus more on this topic, please share your viewings,

http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/faqs-feedback/1213566-suggestion-services-wanted-section.html

thank you.