Upgrading Dilemma

[campoes]

Before starting, i would like to inform that I have no intention of flaming, offending or make unpleasant remark

Personally I feel, most of the photographers (including me ;p) concentrate more on the gears rather than trying to understand how the image is taken (how that person took the picture, what setting s/he used, why s/he choose that setting, why the composition like that, can I try to take the same image after learning the technique, etc2)
I fully understand that gear will make difference, especially range of the lenses (up to certain point), but after that point, it's our willingness to learn that will improve our image.

I don't have the luxury to buy FF body which cost SGD3160 (5d2), coz I'm not earning anything from my photography, just doing it for hobby and fun . If I can make my living with photography, definitely i'll upgrade to FF.

So if I'm in ur position, maybe I prefer to buy lens then upgrade the body, because of these 2 reasons
1. Lens price will not drop as much as the body price
2. You start to see more creativity when u upgrade ur lens range, for example from wide to telephoto, macro, lensbaby, etc2 eheheh

btw, may I know what lens u have so far ?

 

[chopper]

I do agree with one of the comment that half the fun is taking picture, the other half is the equipment. I must admit I somehow fall under the same category, and for those who keep saying it's the man behind the camera that matters, I would like to see what equipment he/she is using, a pin hole camera ?? It's not all about the equipment, and it's not all about the man behind the camera.

However, to TS, my advice is to keep to the 1000D. If you have a p&s and you are blaming the equipment, I can probably understand because it's quite challenging to get a excellent pict with normal P&S (at least with my skill set). However, 1000D is a decent enough DSLR, definitely not the best IQ, not the fastest, and not the most versatile. But I believe the fundamentals of getting to a good picture is there within 1000D. If you can't get a good pict with that, maybe the first question you should ask is do you have the right lens ? Slap on a 35/1.4 L on it and if you can get an excellent street portrait, or 85/1.8(or 1.2) on it and if you can't get a good portrait shots, then I think the issues lies with the photographer. Getting a 5D2 is probably not going to help much.

My advice, lens is probably where you want to consider upgrade first, then follow by camera. And for both case, you should be absolutely clear why you need to upgrade, else it's probably just a lust. And if you think the 'enjoying the equipment' part is justifiable for spending the money, then go ahead, nothing wrong. Just look at those who spend $10K on a manual focus Leica range finder...

 

[lightning]

the main difference is crop factor and FF factor for me.

before when i am using 450D, i am so used to the focal length on my cropped body with my lens.

after i switch to FF body, everything grows wider, a 50 is a 50, not 85 anymore, a 85 is 85, not 135 anymore.

composition wise, i need to start all over again to fill up some extra gaps since now everything is wider.

i also appreciated my 17-40 now on my FF since at 17 is it is really 17. Then i also had to learn cope with the problems that 17 will gave on FF, that is distortion, how to correct it etc.

There is always something new to learn for each new body u upgraded.

I am not a night shot person but since 5DMKII produces better noise control as compared to 550D. For those who is keen in night shoot will be more keen then before since this body can control the noise better and ppl like me tends to appreciate night shoot more then ever.

What you are saying is only about crop factor. If you slap on a 10-22 on the 550D. It can take the same FOV as the 5D. How much learning you get from there? If I get you correctly here is if you know how to compose on a 1.6 crop camera and if given a FF camera, you loose your ability to compose? :think: So when people use zoom lenses, they must have big problem composing? Their FOV keeps changing.:sweat:

Noise control of 550D is almost on par with 5D2. Go try and compare for yourself. Don't just see specs and reviews.

The question is what can a 5D2 do that a 550D cannot? We are not going into build and etc. We are talking about how 5D2 can help a user learn more about photography that a 550D cannot. 10mm on a 550D will have the same kind of distortion seen on the 5D2 with 17mm. I owned all 3 crop factors before....and crop factors do not affect learning of photography from my experience.

 

[sinned79]

What you are saying is only about crop factor. If you slap on a 10-22 on the 550D. It can take the same FOV as the 5D. How much learning you get from there? If I get you correctly here is if you know how to compose on a 1.6 crop camera and if given a FF camera, you loose your ability to compose? :think: So when people use zoom lenses, they must have big problem composing? Their FOV keeps changing.:sweat:

Noise control of 550D is almost on par with 5D2. Go try and compare for yourself. Don't just see specs and reviews.

The question is what can a 5D2 do that a 550D cannot? We are not going into build and etc. We are talking about how 5D2 can help a user learn more about photography that a 550D cannot. 10mm on a 550D will have the same kind of distortion seen on the 5D2 with 17mm. I owned all 3 crop factors before....and crop factors do not affect learning of photography from my experience.

Its hard to explain to you.

For myself, i find a slight difference when i move from crop to FF. Because i am so used to my crop body when i move into FF, initially abit hard to use to it, eg

[ooXoo]

becomes

[ooooXoooo]

oooo represents space
X respresents subject

so i had to recompose (walking further or nearer to subject). so that the left and the right of the X wun have so much space.

You will understand this someday if u been using crop body for a while and then suddenly move on to FF body in the initial stage.

I don't mean i lose the ability to compose but i had to re-adjust myself to compose against a FF focal length vs a crop focal length. Cos maybe last time on crop body, i stand 3 arms length from the subject but now i need to walk nearer 1 arm length from the same subject to close in to the subject.

Features wise, 5DMKII i believe got 3 more options whereby there is C1, C2, C3, that u can program yourself? I believe 550D doesn't haven this. But i have explore to this area here. And the absense of automatic modes like landscape, sports, etc.

Anyway bottom line is if 550D and 5DMKII is the same (minus crop vs FF difference), then why canon bothers to come with this models? Beside IQ, build etc, there is sure some difference. And this difference is something u can learn on 5DMKII and not 550D.

Just like 7D, there is zonal focusing for you to learn which a 450D and 5DMKII dun have. I am not sure about 550D though.

So what i say, there is always a feature for you to learn and get used to for each type of body.

So no point rebutting me since I only lay my hands on 5DMKII 2 months ago. And used 450D for 7 months and never touched a 550D, so i can only give my comparisions btw a 5DMKII and 450D.

btw i nvr use 10-22 before but i know i dun have distortion problem for 17-40 on my 450D previously.

 

[sfoto100]

Noise control of 550D is almost on par with 5D2. Go try and compare for yourself. Don't just see specs and reviews.

i believe in a few years time , crop bodies iso will be as good as the hi iso of current FF.... there is a report that there is a breakthru with technology that makes a sensor 4 times more sensitive to light...

i think if in the future, the iso 3200 or iso 6400 for crop can be of lesser noise, then the FF's advantage of better noise will no longer be true anymore...

of course by that time, FF hi iso will be even much better than crop lah... haha..

 

[lightning]

Its hard to explain to you.

For myself, i find a slight difference when i move from crop to FF. Because i am so used to my crop body when i move into FF, initially abit hard to use to it, eg

[ooXoo]

becomes

[ooooXoooo]

oooo represents space
X respresents subject

so i had to recompose (walking further or nearer to subject). so that the left and the right of the X wun have so much space.

You will understand this someday if u been using crop body for a while and then suddenly move on to FF body in the initial stage.

I don't mean i lose the ability to compose but i had to re-adjust myself to compose against a FF focal length vs a crop focal length. Cos maybe last time on crop body, i stand 3 arms length from the subject but now i need to walk nearer 1 arm length from the same subject to close in to the subject.

Features wise, 5DMKII i believe got 3 more options whereby there is C1, C2, C3, that u can program yourself? I believe 550D doesn't haven this. But i have explore to this area here. And the absense of automatic modes like landscape, sports, etc.

Anyway bottom line is if 550D and 5DMKII is the same (minus crop vs FF difference), then why canon bothers to come with this models? Beside IQ, build etc, there is sure some difference. And this difference is something u can learn on 5DMKII and not 550D.

Just like 7D, there is zonal focusing for you to learn which a 450D and 5DMKII dun have. I am not sure about 550D though.

So what i say, there is always a feature for you to learn and get used to for each type of body.

So no point rebutting me since I only lay my hands on 5DMKII 2 months ago. And used 450D for 7 months and never touched a 550D, so i can only give my comparisions btw a 5DMKII and 450D.

btw i nvr use 10-22 before but i know i dun have distortion problem for 17-40 on my 450D previously.

The point I am trying to bring out here is that photography is not about the type of camera that you use. Photography is not bounded by the camera features that you have. All DSLR gives you the ability to compose, to adjust the EV and DOF by the various combination of Aperture, shutter speed and ISO levels. As long as you have good fundamentals in these areas given any cameras you will be able to produce quality images. Yes, there are technical differences in different camera bodies, but that will not limit a person who wants to learn photography. However, it does make a huge difference for those people who want to "show" their equipment. I am sure many great photographers in the past knows more about photography then us, but have camera much worse then a 300D. If better equipment helps us to learn more, then we should be better photographers then those legends in the past.

 

[Anson]

Noise control of 550D is almost on par with 5D2. Go try and compare for yourself. Don't just see specs and reviews.

Personally till now I have not used a 550D before, however I had used a 7D and 5DM2 several times. IMHO for lower ISO (2000 or lesser) the noise is negligible, but above that you would really see a different in IQ (straight out of the camera with default NR setting).


Thus unless 550D has better control in noise (for high ISO) compared to 5DM2, else I don't think it would really be on par. Of course if the final output is for web-sized, both are fine.


I agree with you... Quoted: "As long as you have good fundamentals in these areas given any cameras you will be able to produce quality images. Yes, there are technical differences in different camera bodies, but that will not limit a person who wants to learn photography." :thumbsup:

To me, the equipment is only as good as it's wielder.

 

[lightning]

Personally till now I have not used a 550D before, however I had used a 7D and 5DM2 several times. IMHO for lower ISO (2000 or lesser) the noise is negligible, but above that you would really see a different in IQ (straight out of the camera with default NR setting).


Thus unless 550D has better control in noise (for high ISO) compared to 5DM2, else I don't think it would really be on par. Of course if the final output is for web-sized, both are fine.


I agree with you... Quoted: "As long as you have good fundamentals in these areas given any cameras you will be able to produce quality images. Yes, there are technical differences in different camera bodies, but that will not limit a person who wants to learn photography." :thumbsup:

To me, the equipment is only as good as it's wielder.

That is why I say almost on par. May be 1 stop different. The ability to control noise on an image depends on 2 factors 1) The sensor 2) How well expose is that picture.
Images not properly exposed tends to produce more noise.

 

[Anson]

That is why I say almost on par. May be 1 stop different. The ability to control noise on an image depends on 2 factors 1) The sensor 2) How well expose is that picture.
Images not properly exposed tends to produce more noise.

From my usage I would say that it's 2~3 stop different (for 7D & 5DM2), given the same camera setting and lenses. Of course if you are comparing a FF & a crop (of a similar generation) it's not surprise that the former would most likely give better noise control.

Can the noise (in high ISO) in 7D be controlled? Yes, of course (either in pre or post process).

I understand that relationship/technology such as pixel density, NR algorithm & micro-lenses affect the noise control of various bodies. And had use both camera (7D & 5DM2) for a period of time, that's why I was quite surprise when you mention that with 2-3 stop different (on my usage) the noise control is almost on par. If it's the case, that means 550D would have better IQ than 7D when compared with 7D. :think:

 

[lightning]

From my usage I would say that it's 2~3 stop different (for 7D & 5DM2), given the same camera setting and lenses. Of course if you are comparing a FF & a crop (of a similar generation) it's not surprise that the former would most likely give better noise control.

Can the noise (in high ISO) in 7D be controlled? Yes, of course (either in pre or post process).

I understand that relationship/technology such as pixel density, NR algorithm & micro-lenses affect the noise control of various bodies. And had use both camera (7D & 5DM2) for a period of time, that's why I was quite surprise when you mention that with 2-3 stop different (on my usage) the noise control is almost on par. If it's the case, that means 550D would have better IQ than 7D when compared with 7D. :think:

I have used 5D2( a friend's camera) and 7D for a while also. On both camera, at max I will use is ISO 6400. at ISO 6400, I find both noise control to be of little difference. May be 5D2 has slightly better noise control but just a little. On print. I can't tell the diff. With a fast lens, I hardly go beyond ISO 6400 in almost all situation without flash.

 

[sfoto100]

I have used 5D2( a friend's camera) and 7D for a while also. On both camera, at max I will use is ISO 6400. at ISO 6400, I find both noise control to be of little difference. May be 5D2 has slightly better noise control but just a little. On print. I can't tell the diff. With a fast lens, I hardly go beyond ISO 6400 in almost all situation without flash.

i went to your sites... ur pics are good.

so is that the reason why u r using a 7D and not the 5D? i saw in your site u owned a 5D before...

do u mind to share the pics of 7D and 5 D mk2 at iso 6400?

ya i think no need to go beyond iso6400...

 

[Anson]

I have used 5D2( a friend's camera) and 7D for a while also. On both camera, at max I will use is ISO 6400. at ISO 6400, I find both noise control to be of little difference. May be 5D2 has slightly better noise control but just a little. On print. I can't tell the diff. With a fast lens, I hardly go beyond ISO 6400 in almost all situation without flash.

For my typical high ISO condition it is 3200-12800 without flash on a 70-200F2.8IS (mainly when shooting a drama play or concert). As I had used both camera interchanging for the same event before the IQ (noise) is very visible different.

Of course if the deliverable is about 4R print (or smaller), the different even on a 450D and 5DM2 at ISO 1600 is negligible (esp if you went thru post-processing before printing).

 

[lightning]

i went to your sites... ur pics are good.

so is that the reason why u r using a 7D and not the 5D? i saw in your site u owned a 5D before...

do u mind to share the pics of 7D and 5 D mk2 at iso 6400?

ya i think no need to go beyond iso6400...

Okay let me search for them. But is really hard to compare side by side cos I doubt I have identical photos from the 2 cameras.

 

[sfoto100]

Okay let me search for them. But is really hard to compare side by side cos I doubt I have identical photos from the 2 cameras.

tks alot... hope i didn't impose alot on u... ;p

 

[sinned79]

The point I am trying to bring out here is that photography is not about the type of camera that you use. Photography is not bounded by the camera features that you have. All DSLR gives you the ability to compose, to adjust the EV and DOF by the various combination of Aperture, shutter speed and ISO levels. As long as you have good fundamentals in these areas given any cameras you will be able to produce quality images. Yes, there are technical differences in different camera bodies, but that will not limit a person who wants to learn photography. However, it does make a huge difference for those people who want to "show" their equipment. I am sure many great photographers in the past knows more about photography then us, but have camera much worse then a 300D. If better equipment helps us to learn more, then we should be better photographers then those legends in the past.

yes i know what u mean.

but in the past (way before 300D) i think no such thing as crop bodies? pardon me if i am wrong then

for me personally. i wanted a full frame body. cos i am lazy to bother with the multiplier calculation when i buy lens. For example, when i buy a 85, i wanted a 85 not 135.

its not meant for me to show off but i feel that i want to pay what i get, a 85 is a 85. Although crop body got its own strengths, cos u need not buy a 135 to get 135, 85 will do the job. Just like recently, i splashed $2k for a 35mm f1.4. so imagine i got a crop body, the length i got will be 50mm which i dun like (after using/experimenting with canon 50mm f1.8, CZ 50mm f1.4, canon 50mm f1.4 and the more recent OM 50mm f1.4), i still prefer to work with 35mm i find since its wider and gives me work space to work on. So a FF suits me better in this case.

but still i prefer a full frame what you see if what you get (focal length). hence i made that switch from 450D.

other then that, i dun care about those features, not even the X times AF points 7D can gave me attracts me. Cos 7D isn't FF so it isn't what i wanted.

I dun know what is the mindset of TS. But if his mindset is same as me. Then i encourage him to switch to 5DMKII from the start instead of wasting his time on crop bodies then complain later thats not what he wanted.

But if its just cos he wants to improve, then he need not buy 5DMKII but should learn from his 1000D the fundamentals first.

So bottomline, i know what i want and go for it but i dun know he TS knows what he really wants.

 

[NMSS_2]

buy the best and forget the rest. Dont waste money in doing "upgrading" once you know what you want.

 

[DarkPa1adin]

I suggest, buy some lenses to try on ur current camera first, don't rush on upgrading body...
Practices with lenses is more important than with a change of body... Lenses are more constant, body every 3 years will release a new/better version.. And it is never too late to change a better body in the future...

 

[ahbian]

Well bro for 1 of the reason it's tat I'm not really happy wif the pic quality I end up wif as in the end result is that I some how frustrated by it. Eg. the point of focus as in taking the main subject pic. It usually turns out the other then the subject is clearer when I transfer it to my pc for editing.

2nd thing is well think is the best time for me to upgrade now as I've $ to spare (i know, i know y not keep it for the "raining day" well my ans will be if i'm still alive la!! Lol) and not know if i can in future den...

and 3 rd like i've said I've try out mark II and i think it's a great camera to have. Have not try out 7D yet, maybe I should b4 making a choice den. Adding my dilemma in chioce!! Wakakaka..

Thanks for the helpful input bro!

I'll try to give feedback based on the three points you provided.

#1
Do you face the same problem when you use the 5D MKII? Or did you not look out for it when using the 5D MKII? Its possible that it is a user error rather than a 1000D vs 5D MKII issue.

#2
Whether to spend or not is for you to decide, seems like you have already decided, and seeking other justification in CS.

#3
Not sure what specific areas you were referring to when you say its a "great camera". If these are the areas which can't be achieved by the 1000D, and is absolutely essential to your shooting style, then you have the answer......

Sometimes, people confuse getting the dream camera as the same as getting dream pictures.

 

[Yoh]

but in the past (way before 300D) i think no such thing as crop bodies? pardon me if i am wrong then

There were crop bodies such as Canon D30 etc, which were before 300D.

I dun know what is the mindset of TS. But if his mindset is same as me. Then i encourage him to switch to 5DMKII from the start instead of wasting his time on crop bodies then complain later thats not what he wanted.

His current concern should be how to capture good quality picture than having to mess around with the crop factors and what not. It doesn't make any different if he can't capture what he defines as good quality picture using either body since there are lenses out there to complement for each different scenarios and shoots.

Hi guys, I'm contemplating on whether I should upgrade my 1000D body to 5D mark II or the less 550D. Don't get me wrong as I know most of u would say if u got the $$ why not 5D mark II as 550 is just like a few step upgrade right but here's the thing. I'm not that DSLR savvy yet still got lots more to learn when come to shooting a good quality pic. Afraid that the mark II will be to hard to handle as in technicality aspect. And it's not that I'm turning into a pro photographer anything like that but when I try out the mark II the pic somehow turns out much better when I shoot wif my 1000D. Well obviously u should say rite the price will say it all?? But does the camera really make so much different. A lot have been said it's not the camera but the person who shoot the pic rite??

All have been said so my question will be this, which will be the serve me better during my still learning stage with DSLR?

Your primary concern should be finding out what went wrong than dive straight into the path of upgrade. Take some time and look at pictures produced by 1000D and think again if its a wrong combination of equipments that resulted in unacceptable picture or was it human's fault that resulted in it. When you have all these findings ready, then re-look at the upgrade options to see if any helps.

 

[qingtian]

What your shoot style? Are you shooting wide or zoom?
What your current equipments setup?

If you believe that a FF body can contribute better IQ than your current crop body.
And you are able to see the differences in IQ (Provided is not human errors) then just go straight to 5DMKII since you have the spare cash.

It is worth to pay the money or not it really depend on your choice since the cash is yours.
But you need to take note that IQ is not only depending on the body performance itself you need good glass and of course most importantly your photography skills.

You may also wish to take note that should you upgrade to 5DMKII, it do not have built in flash which had been mention by the others. You may wish to factors in other additional costs that you need like speedlight flash, lens... The choice is yours...