The kind of attitude growing here
- Thread starter wmayeo
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Yutaka Go
Senior Member
May be CS should be restructure to be like Yahoo answer. People who answer and get chosen as best answer by TS will get 10 points :bsmilie:
Those who get more points will get more senior position and respect
Bad answer will get -10 points so those people in senior position who post bad answer may go back to junior position
Neutral answer (neither good or bad) will get no points.
Those bad members who get -1000 point will automatically get deregister :bsmilie:
Those help members who get more than 1000 points will get free CS T-shirt :bsmilie:
Those who get more points will get more senior position and respect
Bad answer will get -10 points so those people in senior position who post bad answer may go back to junior position
Neutral answer (neither good or bad) will get no points.
Those bad members who get -1000 point will automatically get deregister :bsmilie:
Those help members who get more than 1000 points will get free CS T-shirt :bsmilie:
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At the end of the day, the internet is just one's hiding place.
At the same time, the internet is also laden with free information.
For the most part, some stuff could be easily found... Look, even a noun (google) has became a verb (google) in this digital age. Same goes for facebook as a noun, to a verb.
But at the same time, the internet has made us all freaking lazy - and that's where everyone else comes in.
"If you're too lazy to search, I'm too lazy to reply you as well."
Spoon-feeding culture is bad indeed.
At the same time, the internet is also laden with free information.
For the most part, some stuff could be easily found... Look, even a noun (google) has became a verb (google) in this digital age. Same goes for facebook as a noun, to a verb.
But at the same time, the internet has made us all freaking lazy - and that's where everyone else comes in.
"If you're too lazy to search, I'm too lazy to reply you as well."
Spoon-feeding culture is bad indeed.
In my opinion, having been a Moderator in another forum, the so called "seniors" who are disgusted by such questions should just simply click away and look at other threads. Let those who have the patience and willingness to help out reply instead. But in reality this is never gonna happen because there is bound to be people who get fun out of dissing others.
What we can do is just to be tolerant and not take others words too seriously. At least a good sign is that there are also senior users who are willing to point the TS to the right direction when they have a question to ask.
What we can do is just to be tolerant and not take others words too seriously. At least a good sign is that there are also senior users who are willing to point the TS to the right direction when they have a question to ask.
I'm generally neutral & tolerant to people's comments, as I would respect everyone's opinions and their photography.
Realistically some are not helping at all, so this thread is made to voice out my opinions of the kind of attitude that runs in their minds.
I'm thankful to those who are truly using this Forum as a platform of helping people. It's a noble thing and good cultivation of your own character in both real and virtual world. Of course both to me is real. And I got blessed by some of them through their passion in helping others.
Thank you for all your responses.
Realistically some are not helping at all, so this thread is made to voice out my opinions of the kind of attitude that runs in their minds.
I'm thankful to those who are truly using this Forum as a platform of helping people. It's a noble thing and good cultivation of your own character in both real and virtual world. Of course both to me is real. And I got blessed by some of them through their passion in helping others.
Thank you for all your responses.
wakaowalao
Senior Member
Very true, but yet some jokers are just too free to offer stupid retarded replies rather than stay away or gives correct answers.
I'm generally neutral & tolerant to people's comments, as I would respect everyone's opinions and their photography.
Realistically some are not helping at all, so this thread is made to voice out my opinions of the kind of attitude that runs in their minds.
I'm thankful to those who are truly using this Forum as a platform of helping people. It's a noble thing and good cultivation of your own character in both real and virtual world. Of course both to me is real. And I got blessed by some of them through their passion in helping others.
Thank you for all your responses.
But you don't think that telling newbies to search for answers is a form of "helping"?
Is telling newbies to search for answers considered a stupid retarded reply? Because TS wmayeo isn't referring to those members who choose to flame, but members who tell newbies to google instead.
Just trying to determine what both your boundaries are, and keep topic on track.
wakaowalao
Senior Member
If one don't feel like helping or think newbies questions is not worthy to answer, walk off.
When no one bothers to reply, they will then have to find their own means to get the answers they want. Better, simpler and save time typing the extra fourteen letters chant- "go search google" .
When no one bothers to reply, they will then have to find their own means to get the answers they want. Better, simpler and save time typing the extra fourteen letters chant- "go search google" .
Each newbie has their own level of effort/commitment to their learning, how they ask a question properly and the types of questions asked. We simply can't control what are asked at all. And to each topic's appropriateness, I'm not going to say like when do you have to use the magic words... "Why don't you Google?" The phrase is chanted quite often by regular members, which perceived them to be like " So you know it all yet you keep these for yourself."
Then that's not the basis for a forum. What's the point of having a section cater to newbies? How does it differ like having no internet? Just like the 35mm film days where people learn through mistakes and self teaching himself how to fish or at least there are photographers who truly want to help you.
It's an attitude issue of a person who reply without knowing he himself is subjected to his own potentials in photography. Maybe the topic of attitude (entirely hidden for pleasure) doesn't make forumers aware of what I am trying to voice out yet.
I'm also quite pro in self taught so I understood the rationale of helping the newbie to self teach himself, rather than spoon feeding like a baby.
I've also been a moderator before in other forums, but it doesn't make me any better or higher class being... right?
I will like to offer my point of view.
I have been on clubsap for a couple of years now. I may not be senior but I have seen the forum grow alot (esp in the last 3 years). Many people have taken up photography because the costs of a DSLR is now so affordable(compared to when I first got my NIKON D1), hence the growing popularity of this forum.
I will like to say that if newbies(or even oldbies like myself) gets shoot down for asking questions(no matter how "stupid" the question is), people will stop coming to this forum.
Advertisers and organisers depends on these members, and Clubsnap depends on these Advertisers and Organisers' subscription to upkeep the forum.
When people stop coming in, Advertisers and Organisers lose out, and so does the Clubsnap admin team.
Even after years of photography, sometimes i get intrigued by the newbies' questions. That makes me want to go research or find answers.
Imagine this, if all clubsnap members go find answers to all their questions, I will not be able to learn new things. If they don't post questions, i will not get to see them at all. What seems like "stupid" question to some people, may be new to others.
When 1 person post a question, 10 people may answer and 100 people may benefit.
Yes, maybe 1000 people might already know the answer, but another 1000 might not.
so lets be a graceful society. For those who don't like to "spoonfeed", just click the mouse and move to on other threads. Lets others who like to give answers spoonfeed the TS.
I gladly say that, sometimes when people post questions and I go find the answers, i learn along the way. Sometimes while looking for that particular answer, i stumble upon other facts and figures. With more new information, I can share with others here. That's what a forum is all about.
to be fair,sometimes typing the different keywords might not lead to the answers. senior members have been here long enough to see lots of thread so they know where to find the answers.
so lets give the newbies a break. Even for someone who registerd in 2001 but do not frequent here often, he/she may not know where to find the answers too
I have been on clubsap for a couple of years now. I may not be senior but I have seen the forum grow alot (esp in the last 3 years). Many people have taken up photography because the costs of a DSLR is now so affordable(compared to when I first got my NIKON D1), hence the growing popularity of this forum.
I will like to say that if newbies(or even oldbies like myself) gets shoot down for asking questions(no matter how "stupid" the question is), people will stop coming to this forum.
Advertisers and organisers depends on these members, and Clubsnap depends on these Advertisers and Organisers' subscription to upkeep the forum.
When people stop coming in, Advertisers and Organisers lose out, and so does the Clubsnap admin team.
Even after years of photography, sometimes i get intrigued by the newbies' questions. That makes me want to go research or find answers.
Imagine this, if all clubsnap members go find answers to all their questions, I will not be able to learn new things. If they don't post questions, i will not get to see them at all. What seems like "stupid" question to some people, may be new to others.
When 1 person post a question, 10 people may answer and 100 people may benefit.
Yes, maybe 1000 people might already know the answer, but another 1000 might not.
so lets be a graceful society. For those who don't like to "spoonfeed", just click the mouse and move to on other threads. Lets others who like to give answers spoonfeed the TS.
I gladly say that, sometimes when people post questions and I go find the answers, i learn along the way. Sometimes while looking for that particular answer, i stumble upon other facts and figures. With more new information, I can share with others here. That's what a forum is all about.
to be fair,sometimes typing the different keywords might not lead to the answers. senior members have been here long enough to see lots of thread so they know where to find the answers.
so lets give the newbies a break. Even for someone who registerd in 2001 but do not frequent here often, he/she may not know where to find the answers too
this is exactly what is happening here I have brought it up a couple of times already but the thick skinned know it alls still do it they probably feel that just because they have posted a lot and are senior members already that makes them better photographers but check out their picture postings not really that good just because you know a lot of technical stuff doesn't make you a good photographer ... (yes you know who you are!!!)
macaroni
Senior Member
I'm new to this forum but have been forumming elsewhere and many places for years. U're doing a huge favour to yourself and the forum if u were to go seek the answers on your own first. But if u really have to ask and get loads of what u perceive to be nonsense, just move on. Remember... "Opinions are like a55holes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks." Just my 2 cents.
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Not all newbies are the same. You'll notice that some ask very focused questions, these members receive proper replies. Others ask very open ended or simplistic questions. The latter is when it usually happens, that we tell them to google it. It has nothing to do with "keeping info for ourselves", because that knowledge is so basic everyone should already understand it or know where/how to find it.
One cannot just explain away the purpose of a forum or a newbie corner just because we rather tell newbies to search than provide straight answers. Have you seen the American photo forum I linked in my 2nd post? In essence, their newbies have the same questions ours have. Those were phrased focused and to the point, and they were answered. Look at how they "flamed" a guy, and why they did it. Why do their newbies not ask more questions? How do they learn otherwise? Why do they bother having a newbies corner if most of them just post photos for C&C?
We have a newbie corner so newbies can ask questions. I'm sure you also agree that at least 90% of all questions get answered. We especially like to help members who show effort in helping themselves first. It is not about what they ask, is how they ask. That is not hard to understand. So since you understand why spoonfeeding is bad, then I cannot correlate the purpose of this thread. The whole point seems to be that you cannot get over the misconception on why we tell people to google instead.
It is just what it is, a misconception that snowballs with those who actually flame, and all the other little actions that someone out there disagrees with all lumped together. It is self-evident from the posts in this thread already. Asking someone to google is not flaming. Searching for an answer first is actually proper forum etiquette.
Oh, but someone or some people will definitely reply them, because for every 1 member who tells them to search there are 5 others who supplies the answer. Thus none of them will ever need to go find their own means. I have done the research.
In my earliest post, I wondered how many similar answers there were floating in this forum due to the number of any specific question asked. I had some free time so did a little looking into the Newbie corner (only) for any questions regarding Aperture, I think this was as far as sometime Jan '11. Below is what I found:
So, as my theory was, that people assume their questions are unique. This seems to be true, since I couldn't find a similar word-for-word question. However, 1 thing for sure though. For all the answers provided, there was at least 1 person who provided similar answers.
Dear newbies, please realise as unique your questions are, none of the answers are equally unique! It's all about applying knowledge.
Answers:
Of course, other than these referring-links posts, there were many others who answered the newbies question word for word. As in, Solution A for Question A. Which I think, that's what some people would call extremely helpful versus those who said why don't you google that instead?
There is this dude I really admire. This guy would type out page long explanations in his own words mind you, I cannot recall if all the posts were regarding basic photography, but I'm sure at least some were. Why doesn't he do it anymore? I don't know. If someone knows how to access the archives please search for user sammy888. He is still active, just not in Newbie Corner.
Is he the type of member every newbie wants to have helping? Is he the type of member those who decry googlers want in CS? Please send him a PM, ask him why doesn't he post those long explanations anymore.
Now, why do some people tell newbies to google instead of answering Solution A(perture) for Question A(perture). It's very simple. Because those people understand that it's not so easy as to just provide A. That newbie most likely does not understand B, C, and D too. Basically we get caught in limbo, should we spend 30min++ to type out ABCD to provide a full and complete picture to the newbie, help them search for the links or, finally just tell them to search?
Why do we not just simply answer A since we aren't willing to spend the time to type ABCD? Well, believe it or not, we really are interested in helping. But we identify the root of the problem as well. The problem is not Question A, the real problem is the lack of a basic photography foundation. Should we be helping less (A) because to help more (google) would be considered rude?
Should we just help them search for the links and direct them to it? Well we do that, but firstly those links were so easy to find, either they were stickies or the first search engine result. Newbies have trouble with this simple act? Maybe they don't know what key words to search for, again why's that? Lack of basic photography foundation? Vicious circle not helped by providing easy solutions (A).
Are we supposed to turn away and not reply? We just have different opinions on what helping means.
And most of all, it is within CS rules that members search for answers first before resorting to asking. So it's not a rude gesture to tell newbies to obey house rules. It's just not a strictly enforced rule, because we still want to maintain an open friendly atmosphere.
Interesting fact: We have never scolded anyone for spoiling newbies. We acknowledge that existence, heck some of us even do the same spoonfeeding half the time. Cut us some slack, don't parade us like big bad meanies.
allenleonhart
Senior Member
yep agreed.
some of us adopt the teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time attitude.
if he is able to tackle his own problems through his own ways, that will benefit him more, especially if his qn is not unique.
remember... this is abt putting in effort... and not spoonfeeding
asking for clarification on a concept almost never gets the "pls go google"
see how this 2 qns are similiar in terms of the things required to ans, yet they are different in attitude and effort.
vs
one shows a totaldisregard and lack of effort. the latter shows effort, and perhaps needs just some clarification of ideas...
we all started from somewhere. we all learnt from someone. along the process, we learnt how to help ourselves too.
when we ask someone to google, we are helping him in our way, how others have previously helped us.
if required, drop any one of us a PM to clarify, we are more than happy to help.
i know of members who gladly dropped their senior member status, cause ppl kept accusing them of bullying newbies when they post critiques, or give advice. tbh, the only benefit from that status is an increased PM box size.
Just a thought.... :think:
Newbies...
Is it so difficult for you to search abit around the forum before posting question....
"Senior" Members
Is it so difficult for you NOT to answer a thread should it look foolish to you. Isn't it better and more worthwhile for you to add your 'Wisdom' on some thread that interest you.
Please lah people... if a newbie ask a question you think its silly or foolish... maybe even 'beneath' you to answer. Then feel free NOT to said/write anything. Let those others who had the time or is more willing, to answer the Newbie's question. Giving answers like "Google It" or "Google is your friend"... only makes so called Senior Members look like A**holes. :sweat:
Newbies...
Is it so difficult for you to search abit around the forum before posting question....
"Senior" Members
Is it so difficult for you NOT to answer a thread should it look foolish to you. Isn't it better and more worthwhile for you to add your 'Wisdom' on some thread that interest you.
Please lah people... if a newbie ask a question you think its silly or foolish... maybe even 'beneath' you to answer. Then feel free NOT to said/write anything. Let those others who had the time or is more willing, to answer the Newbie's question. Giving answers like "Google It" or "Google is your friend"... only makes so called Senior Members look like A**holes. :sweat:
I second your opinion.
What's 'stupid' to one is a learning point for another.
I for one took years to post my first question on clubsnap - for fear of being trumped, having read enough to know how unfriendly and hostile this forum can be.
True enough. I was. It can just be a word taken out of context. It can be a 'tone' that's picked up. How people pick up a 'tone' in type-written text is perplexing to me. I would say it takes a highly sensitive individual to do just that. I am sure someone would pounce on me for that, arguing that a word in the text could mean a lot of things.
Why don't we just take it as it is? There was a similar thread in the Nikon section a couple of months ago. The TS only typed something like 'Why Nikon forum so garang? If you are not happy with the TS's question, don't reply. Don't have to flame.' and the moderator immediately suspected that the TS has an agenda! I didn't understand what the moderator was trying to say until I read and re-read the thread, with 'clues' from others' replies. In the end, another moderator came in to lock the thread citing another reason.
I remember a local documentary which showed a man saying that nobody had taught him that stealing was not right, so he assumed that it was perfectly okay to take someone's things for himself. Likewise, if something is never learnt, how would one know how to go about doing something or know something is right or wrong?
I once posted a question about flash when I was still ignorant about flash. Being ignorant, I had alot of misconceptions and misgivings about flash which came up in my questions and posts. But while some recognised my ignorance and sought to educate me, there were a few who adamantly believed that I was being a smart alec and doubted the professionals who had offered me their opinion. I thought it was crazy. Although from there, I learnt abit about flash, and knew a few keywords to google to find help on, but I'd have appreciated it more if the forummers could have been friendlier and more helpful than spamming the thread with sarcasm and nasty words. One whom I could not recall the nick 'educated' (in his own word) me and peppered his 'education' with loads of condescending and nasty terms and demanded that I should be grateful to him.
I have found a friendly photography forum in which the users answer questions to the point, or at least the threads I have read:
http://photocamel.com/forum/
My thought was: why can't clubsnap be like that?
I love forums and go to them for many of my queries:
1) singaporebrides
2) renotalk
3) singaporemotherhood
4) idobaby
5) kiasuparents
6) tripadvisor
7) pianoworld
8) even 'stomp'
I must say clubsnap is the only one I would brand 'unfriendly'. I type without fear in other forums, knowing that I wouldn't get flamed for my ignorance or repetition of questions. And best of all, nobody will come and type 'google is your best friend' or 'do a search on the forum. There are many such threads around.'
If you think that many questions in clubsnap are repeated every week, you would be very surprised how many similar questions are up in the forums above. The ever classic ones are 'Which breastpump to get?' 'Which bridal boutique to go to?' 'Which hotel for a wedding?' 'Recommend me an interior designer'. Are they not 'vague'? By clubsnap's standard, these are 'stupid' questions. Many in clubsnap would churn out the cookie-cutter answer: Different people have different needs. It depends on what you need, your budget etc. You need to be more specific in what you are asking for. If not, you'll just be creating another brand war.
To me, there are no stupid questions. Only stupid answers.
The users in the above forums do not answer questions like that. They tell you their own opinion, and tell you why they choose that option or product and why they think that product is good for them. That to me is very helpful. Many who ask questions probably don't really know what they want or need either.
With internet around, I dare say most people would have tried to search for their answers themselves. For some reason, I am not as adept as finding answers on the internet as many others. You really need to type in the 'right' keywords to find the 'right' answers. This forum's searching engine is not as user-friendly as some think.
Senior members do not need any slack to be cut for them. They ought to be the one cutting the newbies alot of slack.
I agree with those who advocate: if you want to help, reply. If you don't want, just ignore the thread.
You'll be surprised how easy this can be done - if you even try.
edutilos-
Senior Member
How about "how do I switch on my camera lols? I don't really know what model number it is heeheex?"
Please give a smart answer to this smart question. :bsmilie: I can provide a replay of some very interesting threads I have seen before here, because actually it doesn't stop here. Even if you answer patiently, e.g. "You can find the model number where where where, and you look for a on/off switch", the follow-ups will make you want to tear your hair out.
A: How do I switch on my camera lols? I don't really know what model number it is heeheex?
B: You can find the model number at XXX location, and you look for a on/off switch la.
A: No on-off switch lehs, the things all faded... I don't dare to press the button, wait my warranty void.
B: Aiyo, warranty won't void one la, how come new camera all the markings gone.... Just press all the buttons, one should work.
A: I press all already still dead. Btw, anyone know Canon Service Centre number????
B: Think you should bring down to service... Their number is 1235473.
A: Oh.... Ok, I call but no one answer, are you sure is right number??? Btw, what are their opening hours?
B: Orh, Mon-Fri 9 -9, Sat and Sun 9-5...
A: Oh... Any tech that is good? Any recommendation???? And do I need to bring my passport, my grandmother, my pet dog ???
B: You just need to bring your camera, warranty and receipt...
A: Oops my friend told me I never put in battery lox!!! Why you never ask me check for battery in or not leh? Aiyo.... CS people so unhelpful ones.
B: ...................................................................
This is exaggerated, but it happens here and there, and to be fair, the people who ask the obvious questions usually are the ones who ask a lot more obvious questions - and at the back of my mind, I'm sure all of us who know the answer, no matter how nice we are, do wonder how they are going to survive in the wild wild world.
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