Suggesting age limit for models

[Octarine]

CS is a mirror of the local society. Whatever sleazy things people are complaining about here is nothing more than what is already there. I reject the idea of urging a handful of already busy admins to take up the role of a morale instance or a hunter of pedophile.
It is fully enough to raise the bar for advertisements to a clean standard. Photography according the T&C of CS is not an topic requiring any age verification. The shootings itself are fully covered by the laws and regulations regarding the age for entering contracts. If these regulations are fully applied then there is no need to burden CS admins with more work.
Since CS can be read freely without subscription nobody can prevent those seeking for sleazy content to sneak in and have a look. Let's not become paranoid about it. And let's be clear about: no matter what sophisticated methods CS admins will come up with there will always be people bypassing it to get to the target. It's like fighting spam. It's better to educate the people and to raise awareness than to block Internet access for all. The idea of preventing each and everything that could possibly happen is a very dangerous illusion.

 

[doom102938]

Club snap could also put up a page where people MUST read before they can go into the photo shoot section, targeted mainly at the young aspiring models.

 

[CYRN]

Club snap could also put up a page where people MUST read before they can go into the photo shoot section, targeted mainly at the young aspiring models.

hav u read and understood the CS T&S. :angel:

 

[Long Thai Bean]

hav u read and understood the CS T&S. :angel:

How many of us actually read the T&C ??? Really read .... i mean :dunno:

 

[CYRN]

How many of us actually read the T&C ??? Really read .... i mean :dunno:

so putting pages before photo forum will work meh?:think:

 

[Rangefinder_fan]

Just because Facebook or Friendster decide not to act does not mean Clubsnap must follow likewise. Clubsnap cannot claim ignorance of what's happening and what potentially could happen given the publicity of lechers preying on young girls behind the facade of photography. As I have mentioned earlier, this issue goes beyond legal obligations. Clubsnap, being aware of what's happening, must act socially responsible and ensure that young girls are not prey to such sexual predators. Clubsnap must not knowingly allow itself to be used as a vehicle for such predators to carry out their depraved criminal acts.

This issue is not about selecting models. Young local girls of 15,16,17 or even 18 are impressionable and just starting out in the working world. The lure of being a model and earning money is irresistable. The chances of being taken advantage of at that tender young age is very high and there are many people out there waiting to do so.

Clubsnap will need to exercise due diligence and put in place reasonable security measures to ensure its data is not compromised. If stalkers hacked into because they want to make away with data of young females, then that's too bad. No website is 100% hack-proof if the hackers are determined enough and have the resources to do so. As webmaster, you just do what is reasonable given the nature of the data and website.

Some of the forumners here have made good suggestions. Putting an age requirement and proof of age is the right way forward. Clubsnap need to be pro-active and not wait for things to happen before taking action. Hiding behind the reason that it is not legally responsible for the acts of its members is immature and socially irresponsible.

Don't wait for something to happen. It may be too late and everyone here who enjoys this website will suffer because of a few irresponsible lechers acting as "photographers".

Hats off to you, with your cunning use of generalisations and hyperbole. Man, you sure are trying your best to drum up an unreasonable fear of the unknown arent you.

Lets get things clear. CS is an online meeting place for photographers, with its associated services. What it isnt is a center of moral teaching. You seem to advocate the storing of personal information as a means of ensuring that things are kosher. While lots of Singaporeans are flippant about the whole issue of privacy, am pretty sure that there are others who are aghast at the thought of an online social club needing something as important as an IC number. Also, since when did it become the responsibility of the admins and mods to safeguard such personal details anyway? I think that they have day jobs you know. And, why does "Clubsnap will need to exercise due diligence and put in place reasonable security measures to ensure its data is not compromised"? Are they a financial institution? Do they conduct an online business? Do you know how much a solution would cost? Plus the hassle of regular audits etc?

As for your painting of a whole generation of young girls as 'impressionable' and finding the ‘lure of being a model and earning money is irresistable', well, doesnt the role of guardient traditionally fall to the category of people called 'parents'? Where are they in this discussion? Seriously, if I had a kid and I thought that she wasnt really streetsmart, I'd want to keep an eye on what she does online, especially if she has dreams of being a 'model'. Its very Singaporean to pass on responsibility to others, but come on. To CS admins? No slight to them, but my take is, if you sired her, you should keep an eye on her. Not some volunteer person who does this job because he is interested in photography. Would you go to a dentist to get your car fixed?

Maybe this whole forum should just implode upon itself. I mean, there are just too many things to fear out there...

 

[Octarine]

How many of us actually read the T&C ??? Really read .... i mean :dunno:

Ignorance is no excuse. It's your responsibility and it's just a click away.

 

[sORe-EyEz]

Ignorance is no excuse. It's your responsibility and it's just a click away.

this i agree, neither should anybody sign any paper blindly only to claim ignorance. some need to learn a lesson the hard way.

 

[CYRN]

Ignorance is no excuse. It's your responsibility and it's just a click away.

this i agree, neither should anybody sign any paper blindly only to claim ignorance. some need to learn a lesson the hard way.

lets put things in proper context... we are tokking about underage kids here. How many of them are likely to read and understand such... :think:

 

[obfuscate]

eh, i think laws with said age limit is not going to debate about an individual's maturity- unless IQ not in the normal range lah... :sweat:

if so, how did age limit for sexual or violent content (for movies, games) get passed without raising any hoohaa?.. contrary to wad is happening here? :think:

There is a censorship board in Singapore that screens certain types of movies and decides the category in which it should be placed in. In other countries, the censorship board is called someting else. The categorisation uses age as a means to define how well these movies will eventually perceived, where an assumption is made that age is correlated to the level of maturity of the viewers.

We are making this assumption in this thread right from the very first thread, and I agree to it to a certain extent. But I want to point out that it is not necessarily correct in the very specific sense as there are people who will not be able to figure out some things themsleves if their exposure to situations is limited, so the approach needs something more than just looking at age.

Besides this additional measure, it is hard for anyone administering this site to put in place a control that ensures that the age limit is maintained, so an alternative way to control this will be to control the people who organise these shoots. If anything bad happens, the administrators can always reveal the details of the shoot organisers.

The shoot organisers themselves can in turn play that policing role by acquiring the names of the people who participate in the shoots, the models and the situation. Suppose that if models get hounded by photographers, they are free to reveal the names of these photographers.

It's pretty much passing the responsibility down to the next level and allowing each level to take care of it's obligation.

I am silent on the part of the models, but that is not someting I am discussing here because the point to all of this discussion is how we can avoid having this site associated with sleaze.

 

[sORe-EyEz]

at this moment, i got a gut feeling nobody wants to pick up that tab of enforcement. not the admins nor shoot organisers, cos it serves oni to limit their model & customer base. in their eyes, a loose-loose situation.

 

[Octarine]

at this moment, i got a gut feeling nobody wants to pick up that tab of enforcement. not the admins nor shoot organisers, cos it serves oni to limit their model & customer base. in their eyes, a loose-loose situation.

Not a surprise after all this mass education of "economical benefit". Secondly, what do you want to have enforced? The laws are properly applied. Everything else is a moral discussion with borders as sharp as a bokeh at f/1.4.
What is necessary is to raise the awareness of newcomers about the possible sleazy side effects of modeling business. They must not fall into the illusion that it's just simply posing & smiling a bit and cashing in 50 bucks or more per hour. But that's nothing one can achieve by banning topics, deleting threads and pictures and by other restrictions. It's a social problem and it must be handled by the society, including everyone. But handling requires acknowledgment, not ignoring and sweeping under rug.
Maybe the topic deserves a dedicated section instead of being hidden in "Marketplace". Make it dedicated section about "Modeling Business".
In the same way as bad customer service is discussed and shops are bashed for lousy service or coning customers also bad experiences about shooting organizers should be shared. Together with feedback and recommendations by models this can be helpful for those starting into the business. In Buy & Sell and also in many other threads the main motto is always emphasized as "Caveat Emptor" - why does this suddenly not apply to modeling in the way of "Let the model beware"? Nobody worries about 16 year old guys spending hundreds of bucks on equipment at the risk of being conned. But when a 16 year old girl wants to pose a bit then the big moral teaching starts. That's double standard.

 

[vince123123]

Thumbs up - this is called playing on emotions and gender stereotypes.

Nobody worries about 16 year old guys spending hundreds of bucks on equipment at the risk of being conned. But when a 16 year old girl wants to pose a bit then the big moral teaching starts. That's double standard.

 

[chanjyj]

This is a photography forum not a photography cum modelling

so why not charge models advertising fees if they wanna look for services here...since they wanna get paid shoot of course must pay a fee otherwise wat? free advertising?

like buy sell forum...they have ratings for the quality of the products at 10 being mint... so 10 is like highly experience level...so if those no experience ones cannot just come and $50/hr

For modelling service offered

They should have
- rate per hr
- experience 0-10
- portfolio url
- email
- limitations/restrictions/others

then charge them to the amount that the shoot organisers are paying for advertising.
This way...those really cheapo / underage / poor student / models would steer clear and standards may increase too...I believe that problems will reduce significantly

Actually his suggestion is the best so far, IMO.

 

[catchlights]

Please bear in mind that there are legal implications when receiving and storing such personal information and we could end up in a worse situation.

Yes, I aware of these, and I won't suggest this to CS too.

 

[sORe-EyEz]

Not a surprise after all this mass education of "economical benefit". Secondly, what do you want to have enforced? The laws are properly applied. Everything else is a moral discussion with borders as sharp as a bokeh at f/1.4.
But that's nothing one can achieve by banning topics, deleting threads and pictures and by other restrictions.

was the part on banning topics, deleting threads... refering to me? cos i dun have that kind of power here.

it may seem like a moral discussion, but there is a legal aspect to it too. some laws are applied according to age too.

Nobody worries about 16 year old guys spending hundreds of bucks on equipment at the risk of being conned. But when a 16 year old girl wants to pose a bit then the big moral teaching starts. That's double standard.

thatz a world apart dont u think?

 

[vince123123]

Not that many laws relating to age as far as normal healthy modelling is concerned though.

was the part on banning topics, deleting threads... refering to me? cos i dun have that kind of power here.

it may seem like a moral discussion, but there is a legal aspect to it too. some laws are applied according to age too.



thatz a world apart dont u think?

 

[CYRN]

Not that many laws relating to age as far as normal healthy modelling is concerned though.

I'm tinking along the line of parent/guardian endorsing some consent form thingy. :think:

 

[vince123123]

Ah then its not so much a law, but more a practice or suggested guideline

I'm tinking along the line of parent/guardian endorsing some consent form thingy. :think:

 

[sORe-EyEz]

Not that many laws relating to age as far as normal healthy modelling is concerned though.

true about the laws on age part. but where healthy modelling is concerned, far from true. :sweatsm: for if it was & is healthy, there would not be a slew of spinoff topics on this.

i guess i did OT abit as i was replying to an issue on moral issues by a fellow CSer.