Some issues to clarify & maybe CS can do something for the kids?

[NineEleven]

My, I've been away & in about 24hrs, a thread that I started seems to have caused a stir & closed. Some of you can really get carried away & not offered any constructive opinions.

http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504485

Anyway, to set the record straight. I do not know the photographer, it's the 1st time that I have met him & I'm sure it's the same for others as well. I don't know his name or user ID etc. The organiser should have his mobile # & that's probably about it. Public shaming has become quite an attitude these days especially with the help of stomp & people are sometimes too trigger-happy. I'm not too sure how our society has developed from the witch hunt days from the middle ages.

Whatever it is, I don't think the public should hold Melody-love responsible for that day. It's a first for her as well & she has explained her awkward situation. It's part of a learning experience to be better. I personally wouldn't mind to pay her extra to have some peace. We regret we didn't intervened earlier but I must say at least one other experienced photographer :thumbsup: who was present was watching over the situation by helping the gals & organiser too.

For those who jeered behind this screen, shame on you. I'll see what you'll do when you are faced with a similar situation.

My purpose to start that thread is to warn the public, models & organisers that such situations & character will appear again. It may not be the same person in future. You can ban him but he can always raise a new ID. We just have to take caution and deal with it @ a sensible manner. Going to the police is the last resort & not necessary yet @ this point of time IMO, unless someone has a strong believe of getting physical backlash.

My humble opinion is that gals/guys who are out to do freelance, please be sensible to have a friend around especially when you are a freshie. Don't get yourself into unnecessary problems & same for photographers doing 1-1. Otherwise, to organisers & your models, please have a constant reminder to yourself that you have your basic rights to stop a shoot should you feel compromised. Explain your concerns to the others & I'm sure people with reason will understand.

Some of you said that he has done nothing wrong since he paid & is doing a shoot like anyone else & just that he's probably overzealous. Fine, but I personally looked @ where he aimed his lens @ & at least one other guy peeped @ his playback screen & concurred. Now, shooting close-up is photography as well but the issue I have here is when the subjects, in this case are human beings. If they are prepared, paid for & allowed such shoots, fine with me. If you want to do explicit shoots, hire the right model.

BUT what happened that day was the models were obviously extremely uncomfortable & compromised to the extent of harassment IMO. This is NOT FINE with me. Models have feelings too & if they are not in the best mood, we shouldn't force it & you wouldn't get good results too. So, what's the point of carrying on?

Some of you will say, look, it's a lingerie shoot, what do you expect? You are attracting wolves. Well, if that's the case, wolves are everywhere & sleeping next to you. I think the Human body is undeniably attractive & we should view it maturely. We are all born nude & God deliver us as is. The next time when you're changing, please take a few mins to look @ yourself in the mirror. Beyond all the clothes & social standing, we're actually all the same but you don't oggle @ your own body, do you? It's the filthy mind that clouds your judgement. A senior Business Times editor once told me that porn is the #1 $ making media in the world (newsprint is losing $). It(porn) is in everyone of us, it's how you look @ it and not overcome by it.

Now, speaking of the press of which recent news came to light. News come & go, people forget. As long as all parties are willing and nobody complaints, why are we all so uptight? If the society has a myopic mindset, we may not be able to change it but we can at least prove otherwise.

I see that we have a lot of very active forummers here. I remembered that there was a mission some time ago that collected unwanted but working cameras then the people bring them to a 3rd world country, gave them to the underprivileged kids & teach them about capturing images they see. Hopefully, they can grow up with a skill or at least see things differently. Can I suggest that CS do something for the society? (call the press too :angel I have a few working cameras to donate & I'm sure you guys can also impart free photography lessons. We can start with the orphanages here & kids are difficult subjects too!!!

To the admin., please feel free to close this thread when necessary & should others want to start a flame. You can PM me instead.

 

[longkangman]

BUT what happened that day was the models were obviously extremely uncomfortable & compromised to the extent of harassment IMO. This is NOT FINE with me. Models have feelings too & if they are not in the best mood, we shouldn't force it & you wouldn't get good results too. So, what's the point of carrying on?

if it is true that it is harassment and willing to stand for the model I believe there is a case against the photographer but are who wanna report as police case?

Will let our CS in house lawer to advise on this.

:dunno:

 

[ortega]

for serious issues, please post in the FAQ and feedback forum
the kopitiam is not the place

thread moved

 

[eow]

I was the one who named him as the legendary stalker sometime back....
his real name matt#w R@ymon%...
i just dun understand why it is so difficult for u guys/organiser to gave his name.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zeisser/2886819849/sizes/l/in/set-72157607485337116/
photo from zeisser...
the one in the right bottom with black and orange strip... i dare say he the one Ts talking abt...
if i had wronged him... i will gave up this hobby of mine.

 

[Jenova]

I was the one who named him as the legendary stalker sometime back....
his real name matt#w R@ymon%...
i just dun undertstand why it is so difficult for u guys/organiser to gave his name.

But he's not those touchy one type right?

Slightly OT... Just because his images isn't as professional looking, he may be consider as the stalker, I've seen machine-gun shooting style lensman but creates above average standards. Din really hear the term stalker used on them leh... Double standards? :think:

Anyway, I do heard of some cameraman are really those touchy types...

 

[ortega]

if it is true and this guy is unwelcome at the shoots then don't allow him to join
it is that simple

if he joins and makes everyone uneasy with his alleged antics the organiser will not have a good shoot and the participants and subject will not be happy

think about it

 

[eow]

But he's not those touchy one type right?

Slightly OT... Just because his images isn't as professional looking, he may be consider as the stalker, I've seen machine-gun shooting style lensman but creates above average standards. Din really hear the term stalker used on them leh... Double standards? :think:

Anyway, I do heard of some cameraman are really those touchy types...

It up to u to imagine...for us and those who had heard of him and his stories.
The rest better let others filled in:bsmilie:

 

[Jenova]

It up to u to imagine...for us and those who had heard of him and his stories.
The rest better let others filled in:bsmilie:

Take pic and video of the incident and submit to the media... Then we'll see another interesting headlines again...

"Questionable behaviours of lensman/cameraman/GWC on models" the pot calling kettle black POV...

 

[NineEleven]

I was the one who named him as the legendary stalker sometime back....
his real name matt#w R@ymon%...
i just dun understand why it is so difficult for u guys/organiser to gave his name.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zeisser/2886819849/sizes/l/in/set-72157607485337116/
photo from zeisser...
the one in the right bottom with black and orange strip... i dare say he the one Ts talking abt...
if i had wronged him... i will gave up this hobby of mine.

Hey Eow, that's him alright but I wasn't interested to know him. Maybe he has lost that tummy of his? :bsmilie:

Perhaps others who were there can confirm? Looks like he has cheesed you off too.

Upon reflection, maybe I got carried away about this guy but everyone else there were unpleasant with such style of photography. I just hope you guys will learn from our mistake that day & stop/pause/withdraw from a shoot when necessary in future.

Thank you Ortega.

 

[eow]

ok at least the pic is out and u got the name....also save the organizers the agony of revealing their clients identities ... i just hope i won't be threatened by anyone after this..
i'm really very scare:sticktong

 

[eow]

Hey Eow, that's him alright but I wasn't interested to know him. Maybe he has lost that tummy of his? :bsmilie:

Perhaps others who were there can confirm? Looks like he has cheesed you off too.

Upon reflection, maybe I got carried away about this guy but everyone else there were unpleasant with such style of photography. I just hope you guys will learn from our mistake that day & stop/pause/withdraw from a shoot when necessary in future.

Thank you Ortega.

If u have noticed...some of Csers had already guessed correctly the protagonist without any ref to any name..
we are as guility as u as carried away by this guy as we are also bothered by his shooting style:bsmilie: since 2007

 

[Xiao_shin]

Since 2007? My god! At least he is consistent.

Is he aware of this thread? Maybe let him have a chance to explain his behaviour. Just read the original long thead. On "paper", he look "guilty".

 

[Xiao_shin]

I believe that in an organised shoot, the organiser has the duty to protect the models. In most shoot, the model are heavily out-numbered.

 

[scandal599]

I believe that in an organised shoot, the organiser has the duty to protect the models. In most shoot, the model are heavily out-numbered.

unfortunately, I really have to disagree with you on this.

The thing is, yes, while you may be right that the organiser has a duty to the model and the photographer in the shoot, the thing is as photographers, we have an even greater responsibility towards the model under any given circumstance.

here is why:

1) as photogs we hold the pictures in our hands. as such we have the control on how we use their pictures. we have the ability to make or break the model, be it male or female. if anyone remembers the adeline teo case, it is a classic reminder and example. how as a photog you use the photo or how as a photog you DI the photo, can make an impact on the model to an extent and degree that can be unimaginable. at all times we need to take into consideration the models interest first before our own.

2) models in grp shoots are under the photogs direction in reference to poses and what not. that said, no matter what, we need to make sure that the pose he/she is in does not compromise her position as a model.

3) following from 1 and 2 as above, the most important thing here as said previously before the thread was closed down, the responisbility of the photog is on par with the organiser if not more so. just because we are on a grp shoot, that does not mean I can have a "the heck with it" kind of mentality and attitude and just let the organiser handle everything". in this case, we are talking about a female organiser and her place as one will be significantly weaker than that of a male organiser.

I am not trying to advocate a said set of code or ethics for all photogs to follow, do not get me wrong. What I am trying to say is we as photogs hold a lot more clout than organisers in more ways than one as we are the ones taking the photos. That said, our responsibility is and will be by far greater than the organiser. Most importantly, the model whom we are working with must be at ease with the photog.

How each photogs code of ethics are is different, so there is no one code to rule all. BUT, as photogs, we must have the basic decency to help the models and the organiser should soomething go down bad.

 

[Deadpoet]

I believe that in an organised shoot, the organiser has the duty to protect the models. In most shoot, the model are heavily out-numbered.

We all have the responsiblity to protect the model and everyone else in the shoot. That is our duty as human being.

However, at the end of the day, willing seller willing buyer.

It is really up to the model on the scene to stand up for her own rights. The photographers really cannot raise much credible noise except against the perpetrator for blocking/getting into shots. The organizer could have stepped in, oh behalf of the model or simply to enforce shooting rules.

However, once the model or the organizer objected, if the perpetrator continues the unacceptable actions, the photographers should step in and help the model/organizer. We do not want an uncomfortable model, don't we, to say the least.

At the end, it's the model that must raise the objections.

There is really nothing CS can do.

For argument sake, even if the perpetrator is aiming squarely at the model's crotch, asking the model to spread her legs, it will be difficult to argue harassment in the court. Getting the police involve is not an answer. Getting the police involve will only further push the other at the shoot to shy away from "problems".

Likewise, what can CS do? The most it can, is to pass the nick and name, if CS knows who the perpetrator is, to the organizers and/or models. That is about all it can legally do.

It all boils down to, the model must take care of herself.

There was another photographer, 3 different models, who do not know each other, told me similar stories, and unfortunately none of the 3 will name names, about blatant sexual harassment during the shoot. The harassment was asking for sexual favors, but at no time was the person violent.

2 things. Neither of the 3 stopped the shoot and leave the premise, and they refused to name the person.

Models, you need to help us to help you, you need to help yourself.

First and foremost, get out if you can. Second, you must be forthcoming with the person's identity. If not, the perpetrator will always get away free and clear.

 

[vince123123]

Other than getting away free and clear, will continue again and again That said, I find very little grounds for any sexual harrassment case in the present situation.

 

[Dream Merchant]

A lot of valid points brought up.

Just to clarify, when Contaxable suggested and I agreed that a police report should be made, it was NOT for the police to take action, (since they won't as no laws were broken), but to serve as a RECORD, and also preventive 'firewall' since Organiser mentioned fearing her own safety as well as other girls safety (especially if his identity was released, and now that it has been, along with his photo...) since they still work at shows and would likely meet the alledged offender there.

I have no qualms about exposing and shaming, and despite derisive comments at which, in a given set of circumstances, it may be the only and/or best choice of action, but sometimes, one has to look at other options, viability and weigh the consequences of decisions and their efficacy, and bear in mind - at what and whose cost.

 

[Dream Merchant]

Other than getting away free and clear, will continue again and again That said, I find very little grounds for any sexual harrassment case in the present situation.

Agreed.

Personal moral choices and opinions of taste and criteria as to what constitutes an 'undesirable' act may not hold water.

 

[vince123123]

Double agree, different people have different standards.

Agreed.

Personal moral choices and opinions of taste and criteria as to what constitutes an 'undesirable' act may not hold water.

Anyway the guy already named and identified by eow .

 

[scandal599]

We all have the responsiblity to protect the model and everyone else in the shoot. That is our duty as human being.

However, at the end of the day, willing seller willing buyer.

It is really up to the model on the scene to stand up for her own rights. The photographers really cannot raise much credible noise except against the perpetrator for blocking/getting into shots. The organizer could have stepped in, oh behalf of the model or simply to enforce shooting rules.

However, once the model or the organizer objected, if the perpetrator continues the unacceptable actions, the photographers should step in and help the model/organizer. We do not want an uncomfortable model, don't we, to say the least.

At the end, it's the model that must raise the objections.

There is really nothing CS can do.

For argument sake, even if the perpetrator is aiming squarely at the model's crotch, asking the model to spread her legs, it will be difficult to argue harassment in the court. Getting the police involve is not an answer. Getting the police involve will only further push the other at the shoot to shy away from "problems".

Likewise, what can CS do? The most it can, is to pass the nick and name, if CS knows who the perpetrator is, to the organizers and/or models. That is about all it can legally do.

It all boils down to, the model must take care of herself.

There was another photographer, 3 different models, who do not know each other, told me similar stories, and unfortunately none of the 3 will name names, about blatant sexual harassment during the shoot. The harassment was asking for sexual favors, but at no time was the person violent.

2 things. Neither of the 3 stopped the shoot and leave the premise, and they refused to name the person.

Models, you need to help us to help you, you need to help yourself.

First and foremost, get out if you can. Second, you must be forthcoming with the person's identity. If not, the perpetrator will always get away free and clear.

I concur with DP. At the end of it all, while as photogs we may be able to help the model to a certain degree and extent, our hands are bound in respect to the fact that the model makes the choice.

We will do what we can do to protect the model. But otherwise, we are stuck and will be stuck with the decision the model chooses.