Smaller sensors?

[edutilos-]

edutilos-, I can see you are heating up too but cool down bro.
The guys are riled as this subforum has been constantly flamed by user87s who ask questions leading up to the same statement of NEX is better than m43.
So everyone is tired that user87 is keeping saying the same thing over and over again like a broken record player.
If you take note of the way both user87 write, you will notice the similarities so you can't blame them lah.

I see, if this is the case, then I apologise for not knowing.

Anyways, there is no need to sink to name-calling whatever the case. Maybe better to strip it down to logic, present facts. And then subsequently collect evidence, and report posts to the moderators in charge of this section - I'm sure they will do something.

 

[wwooaahh]

I am a bit lost, I will read up more on sensor size especially the APS-C sensor size that you all mentioned. But I am confused that since the APS-C sensor mentioned has much more benefits (Sorry, but I don't think the zoom is a benefit since it is a cut off) and the cost of the Nex 3 is quite the same or lower then the Olympus Pen E-P2 (I did my research on pricing when choosing last time) why does people still get so interested in the system? Sorry if I offended some Olympus or micro 4/3 fan, I am just posting out of curiosity when reading the thread.

Hi RubbishBin1987,

Just sharing with you why I chose E-P2 instead of NEX, despite the larger sensor size in NEX:
1. I like E-P2 appearance, it looks retro, like those film camera . NEX with the small body and big lens looks imbalance to me.
2. I tried to handle the 2 cameras and I preferred the E-P2.
3. E-P2 has a good range of lenses. As you said, we choose the system, which consists of both the body and lens. Currently m4/3 has some excellent lenses such as Pana 20mm 1.7, 7-14mm, Oly 9-18mm, and others ... Even kit lenses are very decent, sharp enough for my usage. I own only a Pana 14-45mm and Oly 17mm, and still happy with it. Currently saving for a Oly 9-18mm.
4. Manual focus with Electronic viewfinder EVF is a joy. Totally love it.
5. Olympus JPEG is excellent, with every good color. I have friends who shoot raws, and have hundreds of unprocessed shots after a trip due to the lack of time. I am a lazy shooter, and I usually shoot JPEG.
6. It has a hot shoe for external flash, which I can plug in a Olympus FL-36 or other compatible one to give me stronger power. You can also use a wireless trigger to trigger several flashes for strobes. I normally shoot macro using the FL36, a manual OM mount Tamron 90mm macro and a DIY diffuser. The result is quite good. I am not sure if it can be done with NEX though ...
7. Built in Image stabilization (IS) for my manual lenses, very helpful in macro shooting.

 

[spidey89]

In my context, D3X tends to be catered to landscape shooters, that is my understanding. But then again, I'm no expert when it comes to flagship models and higher-end gears..

I always had the idea it was more for commerical and advertising photographers who shot billboards :bsmilie: but whatever it is, it's not my cup of tea, of the 3 D3's, the D3 and D3s suits me better

In any case, I'm sure Aryanto meant no harm ,but more of a questioning question? no doubt that both TS and the other guy seem to have similar topics and nicks, but it may be just coincidental, afterall, its not like just one guy born in 1987 right?

Edutilos, don't think lonewolff was calling names, but as said, if indeed that both TS and the other guy is indeed the same person, we will do something, but at the moment, there is no reason to suspect that they're the same so lets give the matter a rest ok guys? Lets all just chill

 

[loneWolff]

I always had the idea it was more for commerical and advertising photographers who shot billboards :bsmilie: but whatever it is, it's not my cup of tea, of the 3 D3's, the D3 and D3s suits me better

In any case, I'm sure Aryanto meant no harm ,but more of a questioning question? no doubt that both TS and the other guy seem to have similar topics and nicks, but it may be just coincidental, afterall, its not like just one guy born in 1987 right?

Edutilos, don't think lonewolff was calling names, but as said, if indeed that both TS and the other guy is indeed the same person, we will do something, but at the moment, there is no reason to suspect that they're the same so lets give the matter a rest ok guys? Lets all just chill

Agreed, can't wait for tmr's kopitiam session.
My lamo lappy needs calibration.

 

[wootsk]

Haiz TS, I guess this is the thread that they refer to.
http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=850896

I guess it is reasonable for anyone who doesn't knows that the Nex is not a micro 4/3 to post in this forum instead of the sony side. It is like why people post Pens series questions here instead of the Olympus thread after all. I wonder if it is a common repeated question. If so we can do something like sticky it, at least there is a point in making it clear for such mistake not to be repeated again. Just my 2 cents

I wonder why Nex have been mistaken as a micro 4/3 by most newbie could be due to the small size built and looks more like a Pen than a DSLR which house the APS-C sensor more oftenly.

 

[Agrivar]

I think that in reply to TS, the #1 reason why I chose m4/3 is because of the available lenses. Sony NEX is quite a good camera and I think if you don't print huge posters, you will see very little difference in Image Quality with m4/3, even though the m4/3 sensor is a little smaller.

The other dealbreaker for me was the way I felt the NEX is unbalanced. Using APS-C sensor means the lenses are bigger than m4/3, leading to huge lenses on small body. I did not like the feel.

Ultimately the camera is just a tool. Go take pictures and forget about which is bigger or better as all camera systems have trade offs.

 

[pegasus21]

A really small lens would be an M mount lens. That way the nex would be more balanced if you want to go that route.

 

[rhino123]

Actually is the m4/3 really THAT much smaller as compared to the APS-C? I don't think so (might be wrong though). To me... the main difference is that the m4/3 shoot noiser photo at high ISO... but seriously... if that happen, then don't shoot at high ISO. If really cannot, then use longer shutter speed and lowered ISO, of course a tripod is a must then...

I have an EP-L1, and I liked it alot. It is small and handy, so if I don't want to bring my 40D around, I'll just carry this little gem with me. I played with the NEX once... and seriously I hated the feel of it (no offense Sony fans)... it just don't feel right.

So there you go.

 

[wootsk]

Actually is the m4/3 really THAT much smaller as compared to the APS-C? I don't think so (might be wrong though). To me... the main difference is that the m4/3 shoot noiser photo at high ISO... but seriously... if that happen, then don't shoot at high ISO. If really cannot, then use longer shutter speed and lowered ISO, of course a tripod is a must then...

I have an EP-L1, and I liked it alot. It is small and handy, so if I don't want to bring my 40D around, I'll just carry this little gem with me. I played with the NEX once... and seriously I hated the feel of it (no offense Sony fans)... it just don't feel right.

So there you go.

I guess it all depends on how people view it. A quite accurate estimated difference (blown slightly bigger).

Why am I still lurking around these thread when I should be stalking at B&S:bsmilie:

 

[spidey89]

Haiz TS, I guess this is the thread that they refer to.
http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=850896

I guess it is reasonable for anyone who doesn't knows that the Nex is not a micro 4/3 to post in this forum instead of the sony side. It is like why people post Pens series questions here instead of the Olympus thread after all. I wonder if it is a common repeated question. If so we can do something like sticky it, at least there is a point in making it clear for such mistake not to be repeated again. Just my 2 cents

I wonder why Nex have been mistaken as a micro 4/3 by most newbie could be due to the small size built and looks more like a Pen than a DSLR which house the APS-C sensor more oftenly.

I don't get the part in red, its correct to post PEN questions here since its under m4/3s system, posting Panasonic G/GH/GF questions here is also correct since its also under m4/3 system, posting NEX question here is wrong (depending on question of course) since NEX is under Sony

Actually is the m4/3 really THAT much smaller as compared to the APS-C? I don't think so (might be wrong though). To me... the main difference is that the m4/3 shoot noiser photo at high ISO... but seriously... if that happen, then don't shoot at high ISO. If really cannot, then use longer shutter speed and lowered ISO, of course a tripod is a must then...

I have an EP-L1, and I liked it alot. It is small and handy, so if I don't want to bring my 40D around, I'll just carry this little gem with me. I played with the NEX once... and seriously I hated the feel of it (no offense Sony fans)... it just don't feel right.

So there you go.

When I took of the lens and looked inside, the m4/3 sensor and the APS-C didn't differ too much, which made me wonder if the drawing is accurate, but then again, I can't be bothered as long as I'm happy with the quality, years ago, APS-C sensors were noisy, now they're not, I've said before, Olympus will improve their noise reduction, but nothing is done over night.

Don't shoot as high ISO? Depends really, if night scene, can use tripod, but what if you're shooting in a "flash not allowed" environment? Such as a church? Again its up to one's tolerance of noise and what one is willing to sacrifice, I'm willing to sacrifice the cleaness of high ISO for IQ and lenses, hence I went with Olympus, if my eyes see that say.. Nikon and Olympus are just as sharp as each other, but of course, Nikon has better high ISO performance I'd go for the Nikon but no 2 persons are the same, so your taste may vary

 

[rhino123]

I don't get the part in red, its correct to post PEN questions here since its under m4/3s system, posting Panasonic G/GH/GF questions here is also correct since its also under m4/3 system, posting NEX question here is wrong (depending on question of course) since NEX is under Sony



When I took of the lens and looked inside, the m4/3 sensor and the APS-C didn't differ too much, which made me wonder if the drawing is accurate, but then again, I can't be bothered as long as I'm happy with the quality, years ago, APS-C sensors were noisy, now they're not, I've said before, Olympus will improve their noise reduction, but nothing is done over night.

Don't shoot as high ISO? Depends really, if night scene, can use tripod, but what if you're shooting in a "flash not allowed" environment? Such as a church? Again its up to one's tolerance of noise and what one is willing to sacrifice, I'm willing to sacrifice the cleaness of high ISO for IQ and lenses, hence I went with Olympus, if my eyes see that say.. Nikon and Olympus are just as sharp as each other, but of course, Nikon has better high ISO performance I'd go for the Nikon but no 2 persons are the same, so your taste may vary

If you use long shutter count... especially when shooting landscape or buildings (they can't run away), then flash is really not needed. Anyway... worse case... can always use Photoshop to edit... that is what I normally do if I really have to step up the ISO.

Even in my 40D and 1000D, I seldom use past ISO400 without editing with my PS.

That said... I still like my EP-L1 alot, it is a handy equipment that I can carried around without having to lug around my big camera bag. The only thing is that I find that it is quite slow (writing time)... maybe it is time I get a Class 10 SD card.

 

[spidey89]

If you use long shutter count... especially when shooting landscape or buildings (they can't run away), then flash is really not needed. Anyway... worse case... can always use Photoshop to edit... that is what I normally do if I really have to step up the ISO.

Even in my 40D and 1000D, I seldom use past ISO400 without editing with my PS.

That said... I still like my EP-L1 alot, it is a handy equipment that I can carried around without having to lug around my big camera bag. The only thing is that I find that it is quite slow (writing time)... maybe it is time I get a Class 10 SD card.

Long shutter count? Never heard it put that way before :bsmilie: but yes, for landscape, flash is not needed,nor high ISO, can use tripod, but I'm sure most people also use PENs and Gs when they go out with friends or family and hence, the high ISO will be quite useful for them where tripod will be impractical, true no? What card are you using now? I'm using class 6 and its ok lei

 

[loneWolff]

If you use long shutter count... especially when shooting landscape or buildings (they can't run away), then flash is really not needed. Anyway... worse case... can always use Photoshop to edit... that is what I normally do if I really have to step up the ISO.

Even in my 40D and 1000D, I seldom use past ISO400 without editing with my PS.

That said... I still like my EP-L1 alot, it is a handy equipment that I can carried around without having to lug around my big camera bag. The only thing is that I find that it is quite slow (writing time)... maybe it is time I get a Class 10 SD card.

You don't need a Class 10 unless you are doing video or continuous jpg capture (time lapse).
I myself uses Class 6 for my normal shoot while keeping Class 10 for my video.
Doesn't hurt to get one since price as drop but a SDXC 2TB would be even better.

 

[rhino123]

Long shutter count? Never heard it put that way before :bsmilie: but yes, for landscape, flash is not needed,nor high ISO, can use tripod, but I'm sure most people also use PENs and Gs when they go out with friends or family and hence, the high ISO will be quite useful for them where tripod will be impractical, true no? What card are you using now? I'm using class 6 and its ok lei

Oops... should be long shutter speed (I need my coffee)...

You don't need a Class 10 unless you are doing video or continuous jpg capture (time lapse).
I myself uses Class 6 for my normal shoot while keeping Class 10 for my video.
Doesn't hurt to get one since price as drop but a SDXC 2TB would be even better.

I am still using the Class 4 that came with the camera.:embrass: When I shoot at continuous mode, there was a lapse... which is pretty irritating. Otherwise, I think EP-L1 is excellent.

Oh... and to me the electronic viewfinder is a must... or I don't know what I am shooting under the sun as cannot see well in the Live View.

 

[loneWolff]

Oops... should be long shutter speed (I need my coffee)...

I am still using the Class 4 that came with the camera.:embrass: When I shoot at continuous mode, there was a lapse... which is pretty irritating. Otherwise, I think EP-L1 is excellent.

Oh... and to me the electronic viewfinder is a must... or I don't know what I am shooting under the sun as cannot see well in the Live View.

Sometimes it might not be the speed of the class but the buffer inside the camera.
Borrow a friend's Class 6 or 10 to test it out.
I have learn to use the LCD screen instead of the viewfinder since I broke mine and repairs are not cheap.

 

[wootsk]

What I mean is that if user thinks that his camera is a micro 4/3, he will post in the micro 4/3 thread instead of the sony forum.

 

[loneWolff]

What I mean is that if user thinks that his camera is a micro 4/3, he will post in the micro 4/3 thread instead of the sony forum.

True, so let us all raise our beer bottles and drink to it.
Nowadays, everyone wants to be a 4/3 as they probably realise something very good about it.
Too bad there is a monetary dispute so Sony just have to put in an APSC instead of a 4/3 sensor.
After all Sony is about style and miniaturization, creating an overall sleak system.
Having a big lens in front of a small body counters what Sony is all about.

Sorry about making you unhappy when comparing between cameras. I am born on 1987, so I added 1987 behind my nick. I am not sure of similar questions posted but I am asking about sensor size because when I initially buy it, I thought my Nex is a micro 4/3 sensor. So I decided to post this in this sub forum to ask about it. I don't think it makes me a better photographer. But asking about different gears and knowing difference and their technical specs does helps me in making better photos when I know how to apply them to my advantage. If you consider it a flame bait, I cannot change your idea, but I do can close thread if you PM me to close it.:cry:

So RubbishBin87, are you upset with your present choice of system and wanted to release some of that pent up frustration?
Feel free to post more of such colorful posting in the Sony forum, I can give you a few examples to use over there.
1. When are the real NEX lens coming?
2. I still can count the number of quality lens the NEX has with one / no hand.
3. When can I get good IQ without using non-NEX lens?
4. What good value item should I be getting this X'mas, a NEX or a toy camera?

Spidey89, sorry ah... My postings are getting from bad to worse since it is approaching full moon.
I have something similar to PMS. :thumbsd:

 

[spidey89]

What I mean is that if user thinks that his camera is a micro 4/3, he will post in the micro 4/3 thread instead of the sony forum.

Ah... that clear things up, Lonewolff, then I think you better off your computer and rest, remember to keep things civil

 

[loneWolff]

Ah... that clear things up, Lonewolff, then I think you better off your computer and rest, remember to keep things civil

Yeah, remember kopi tonight hoh...

 

[aryanto]

Also I wonder why there are different size in sensor, but from all reviews in other threads, it seems bigger sensor is always preferred (Somehow I am glad that my camera isn't a micro four thirds).

There.
It is like coming to a Liverpool practice session and shout that you are glad you are not Liverpool fan.

Replace Liverpool with your favorite soccer or other sport team.
(PS: I am not a fan of soccer, or any competitive sports, Liverpool just come into my mind)
:devil:

I hope those are not the topic. And apology for reacting to it, I am still not an angel.


Back to the actual topic of sensor size.

Noise amount is not just based on sensor size.
First, underexposure is the main reason why there are noise, and noise occurs there.
Second, the ISO setting (auto is the worst)
Third, the type of sensor also contributes to noise characteristics.
Fourth, the image processor capability of cleaning the noise contributes to the reduction - to this, the built in noise reduction algorithm in the image processor plus its input values (eg: strenght, size of brush etc - talking in photoshop lingo) plays a part, and the manufacturer's willingness of giving some control to these - no noise reduction, medium strength noise reduction, strong noise reduction etc menu options.

Finally, is noise really that bad? Every attempt to reduce noise (an image artefact) will cause loss of details because the algorithm will average out the information to "remove the noise". That averaging will affect those that is not noise as well. Depending on the strength, you may or may not notice the loss of details.

To me, noise reduction is best done at PP. Not in camera.
Doing it myself, I can have all the choice of noise reduction software available and have more control.

So how much percentage does sensor size affect this final outcome.. not a lot!
So why thinking so much about it? :dunno: