Perspective Issues on Olympus Crop system


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If that is the case, am i right to say shooting with a crop sensor is disadvantageous? I mean ultimately the person behind the camera matters the most but with a 2x crop, we're actually getting less depth of field as compare to shooting a FF at the same distance. Also your compression doesnt change because of the optics that is presence in that lens.

Actually, this should be the other way around - you get more depth of field with the crop systems. The compression does not change unless you change the distance to the subject.

Really thank you everyone for your replies!! appreciate it. As im thinking of upgrading to a FF yet i want to be able to justify my upgrade instead of just throwing money into it.
Another reason i want to change system is the lack of primes lenses for olympus system. Let say i buy a 30mm 1.8 sigma prime 4/3 mount, im buying glass of a 30mm perspective but shooting a image of a half crop of 60mm.

Do you mean 4/3 or m4/3? There are quite a number of primes for m4/3 at the moment. As for the 30mm 1.8 (is there such a lens?), it depends on whether the lens is designed for FF or not. The 4/3 (and m4/3) lenses are designed for the sensor, and cannot be mounted on a FF body. So if you use an Olympus (or Panasonic) lens, you are not wasting any glass. Same thing applies for DX lenses from other brands.
 

Actually, this should be the other way around - you get more depth of field with the crop systems. The compression does not change unless you change the distance to the subject.



Do you mean 4/3 or m4/3? There are quite a number of primes for m4/3 at the moment. As for the 30mm 1.8 (is there such a lens?), it depends on whether the lens is designed for FF or not. The 4/3 (and m4/3) lenses are designed for the sensor, and cannot be mounted on a FF body. So if you use an Olympus (or Panasonic) lens, you are not wasting any glass. Same thing applies for DX lenses from other brands.

O ya sorry i meant more depth of field. Its a disadvantage isnt it if im a photographer who prefers a small DOF.

I think its the sigma 30mm smth smth.

Ah that means i cant justify my wish to upgrade to a FF. Im hoping to get more prime lenses though. haha
 

tgxworld said:
O ya sorry i meant more depth of field. Its a disadvantage isnt it if im a photographer who prefers a small DOF.

I think its the sigma 30mm smth smth.

Ah that means i cant justify my wish to upgrade to a FF. Im hoping to get more prime lenses though. haha

You better be clear whether you want narrower dof or nicer bokeh. Narrower dof does not mean nice bokeh. I spoke abt having adequate dof while allowing more light to come thru. 4/3 has this advantage. U hv to play with the systems n see how much or little dof u need. If a 4/3 at f1.4 or f2 still too much, then u r better off going n getting a 135 full frame. If not ur itch will never be eased.
 

You better be clear whether you want narrower dof or nicer bokeh. Narrower dof does not mean nice bokeh. I spoke abt having adequate dof while allowing more light to come thru. 4/3 has this advantage. U hv to play with the systems n see how much or little dof u need. If a 4/3 at f1.4 or f2 still too much, then u r better off going n getting a 135 full frame. If not ur itch will never be eased.

what do you mean by having adequate DOF while allowing more light to come thru?

Im not so concern about bokeh that so many people just like having that effect. to me its distracting. My only concern with DOF is to selectively choose what i want or do not want in focus.
 

what do you mean by having adequate DOF while allowing more light to come thru?

Im not so concern about bokeh that so many people just like having that effect. to me its distracting. My only concern with DOF is to selectively choose what i want or do not want in focus.

If you use a 50mm F1.4 lens on m43 body vs a same lens on FF body, you can deeper DOF on m43 but the light gathering is still at the aperture of 1.4. This can be advantage depending on situation. Shooting portrait one person in low light on FF and if the eyes are at same level, you get blurrest background/subject isolation with both eyes in focus. If you shoot 2 or more ppl and they are not standing in a straight line, then you cannot use it at 1.4 as the DOF will be so thin that someone will be out of focus easily, perhaps 4 or smaller, but your shutter speed will be slow, so need to bump up ISO to handhold. Whereas with m43, you can possibly shoot at F2, the deeper DOF helps and you can still use it as the larger aperture so as have the fastest handholdable shutter speed at the low light. Hope the example is clear...

By the way, bokeh is not blur background, it's how pleasing the blur background is. You can have blur background but it doesn't mean nice bokeh.
 

wonglp said:
If you use a 50mm F1.4 lens on m43 body vs a same lens on FF body, you can deeper DOF on m43 but the light gathering is still at the aperture of 1.4. This can be advantage depending on situation. Shooting portrait one person in low light on FF and if the eyes are at same level, you get blurrest background/subject isolation with both eyes in focus. If you shoot 2 or more ppl and they are not standing in a straight line, then you cannot use it at 1.4 as the DOF will be so thin that someone will be out of focus easily, perhaps 4 or smaller, but your shutter speed will be slow, so need to bump up ISO to handhold. Whereas with m43, you can possibly shoot at F2, the deeper DOF helps and you can still use it as the larger aperture so as have the fastest handholdable shutter speed at the low light. Hope the example is clear...

By the way, bokeh is not blur background, it's how pleasing the blur background is. You can have blur background but it doesn't mean nice bokeh.

The ability to achieve more DOF can be an advantage especially in low light situations. Instead of bumping up the ISO, you can shoot at 2 stops faster without giving up DOF. This is a boon for landscape and street photographers.
 

If you use a 50mm F1.4 lens on m43 body vs a same lens on FF body, you can deeper DOF on m43 but the light gathering is still at the aperture of 1.4. This can be advantage depending on situation. Shooting portrait one person in low light on FF and if the eyes are at same level, you get blurrest background/subject isolation with both eyes in focus. If you shoot 2 or more ppl and they are not standing in a straight line, then you cannot use it at 1.4 as the DOF will be so thin that someone will be out of focus easily, perhaps 4 or smaller, but your shutter speed will be slow, so need to bump up ISO to handhold. Whereas with m43, you can possibly shoot at F2, the deeper DOF helps and you can still use it as the larger aperture so as have the fastest handholdable shutter speed at the low light. Hope the example is clear...

By the way, bokeh is not blur background, it's how pleasing the blur background is. You can have blur background but it doesn't mean nice bokeh.

DOF is determined by Aperture and subject to camera distance. Sensor size should have nothing to do with it.
 

Also, i realized if you buy a 200mm lens, its supposed to be 400mm equiv. However, you're not getting the zoom of a 400mm lens but seeing only half of the sizwe of a 200mm lens on a FF.
 

there's so much wrong information in this thread that it is shocking.

read through the link below with image demonstrations, scroll down to the middle on "FOCAL-LENGTH AND PERSPECTIVE"
Photography Techniques: Perspective

those more interested in a mathematical approach can view this link below, which describes compression via a formula. summarised and in essense here - "what’s “perspective compression” all about? It has to do with how you adjust to an increase in focal length. Because the longer lens has a smaller capture angle you tend to back away from your subject --- you want to see the whole building, not just the window. This, of course, changes perspective"
http://scubageek.com/articles/compression.pdf

relating to the 2x crop factor vs 35mm full frame example, 50mm on m4/3 and 50mm on a canon 5D will give you the same compression/perspective if you keep the same distance from the subject, that is if you are ok with seeing a smaller part of the subject.

eg. getting a headshot using m4/3 50mm while getting a half body shot on the 5D. the moment you step back with the m4/3 to get a half body shot view to match the 5D, or come closer to the subject using the 5D to get a headshot, the distance between you and the subject has changed, and perspective and compression will have changed.
 

there's so much wrong information in this thread that it is shocking.

read through the link below with image demonstrations, scroll down to the middle on "FOCAL-LENGTH AND PERSPECTIVE"
Photography Techniques: Perspective

those more interested in a mathematical approach can view this link below, which describes compression via a formula. summarised and in essense here - "what’s “perspective compression” all about? It has to do with how you adjust to an increase in focal length. Because the longer lens has a smaller capture angle you tend to back away from your subject --- you want to see the whole building, not just the window. This, of course, changes perspective"
http://scubageek.com/articles/compression.pdf

relating to the 2x crop factor vs 35mm full frame example, 50mm on m4/3 and 50mm on a canon 5D will give you the same compression/perspective if you keep the same distance from the subject, that is if you are ok with seeing a smaller part of the subject.

eg. getting a headshot using m4/3 50mm while getting a half body shot on the 5D. the moment you step back with the m4/3 to get a half body shot view to match the 5D, or come closer to the subject using the 5D to get a headshot, the distance between you and the subject has changed, and perspective and compression will have changed.

Hi thanks for your reply!

But on the website, that guy probably has to move back to get the same framing. so i guess subject to camera distance does play a part.

That means that if i want a perspective of a 100mm lens shooting 50mm on a 4/3 system will not get me there right unless i change my distance to subject? Which is why i think its quite a major flaw for the 4/3 system.
 

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Hi thanks for your reply!

But on the website, that guy probably has to move back to get the same framing. so i guess subject to camera distance does play a part.

That means that if i want a perspective of a 100mm lens shooting 50mm on a 4/3 system will not get me there right? Which is why i think its quite a major flaw for the 4/3 system.

That is what I have been trying to tell you in my last 100 posts. Distance plays a large part.

I also think you are not getting it. If you do not get it, then maybe 4/3 is not for you. If you do not see the benefits and the beauty of this digital system, and the philosophy that it comes with, you either have not shot enough to appreciate the advantages of it or your shooting style does not require these advantages. Go and get that full frame DSLR and alleviate your itch. No need to try and justify why you need the FF system. :-)) Hope this can help you justify to your Minister of Finance to get that beautiful FF DSLR. :-))
 

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That is what I have been trying to tell you in my last 100 posts. Distance plays a large part.

I also think you are not getting it. If you do not get it, then maybe 4/3 is not for you. If you do not see the benefits and the beauty of this digital system, and the philosophy that it comes with, you either have not shot enough to appreciate the advantages of it or your shooting style does not require these advantages. Go and get that full frame DSLR and alleviate your itch. No need to try and justify why you need the FF system. :-)) Hope this can help you justify to your Minister of Finance to get that beautiful FF DSLR. :-))

Ya thats what you told me and thats what im agreeing with now.

What are the advatanges? its not clearly stated. What 4/3 does it forces you to shoot further from the subject by doing so you are actually increasing DOF. And this is not just about justifying whether i should go FF, this is a place where im learning. Plus i cant simply agree with everyone can i? i process the information and determines what is right and wrong.
 

Ya thats what you told me and thats what im agreeing with now.

What are the advatanges? its not clearly stated. What 4/3 does it forces you to shoot further from the subject by doing so you are actually increasing DOF. And this is not just about justifying whether i should go FF, this is a place where im learning. Plus i cant simply agree with everyone can i? i process the information and determines what is right and wrong.

yup, m4/3 forces you to shoot further away from the subject using the same lens as a 35mm full frame. some view this as a disadvantage.

if the subject is very far away from you, this turns into an advantage as you get more magnification using the same lens on m4/3 compared to full frame.

having more DOF can be both good or bad. bad if you want the background to be extremely blur and separated from the object. good if you want the entire subject to be clear at F1.8 when the lighting conditions are poor for example.

so there are advantages and disadvantages. For me I use both, maximising gain from both systems. having a small package system is great when I don't want to lug all my canon gears ard.
 

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Ya thats what you told me and thats what im agreeing with now.

What are the advatanges? its not clearly stated. What 4/3 does it forces you to shoot further from the subject by doing so you are actually increasing DOF. And this is not just about justifying whether i should go FF, this is a place where im learning. Plus i cant simply agree with everyone can i? i process the information and determines what is right and wrong.

I think this is the failure of the 4/3 system marketing as well as the success of Canon marketing. Canon have marketed so well and everyone is psychoed into larger sensor better performance. But really, it is hard to market the benefits or advantages of the 4/3 system. It is too technical and even for me, took me some years to actually start to appreciate it.

In any case, you need to be clearer - do you want to be further away or nearer to your subject? Or do you want narrow DOF? Or do you want less or more background-foreground separation? When you talk about perspective, I thought that you were talking about foreground-background separation.

There is no system that can do everything. Every system has its strengths and you choose the system that best matches your requirements. It is just the physical limition of each system. Larger sensor, narrower DOF, better IQ, better noise control. What they never tell you is that narrower DOF, more out of focus shots. What they never tell you is that narrower DOF, means for group portraits or landscapes etc, you cannot shoot at larger apertures and so have to shoot at smaller apertures. This means that ISO has to be higher, which affects dynamic range etc. Shutter speed also has to be lower, which means that if you have no IS, you need tripod etc. Narrower DOF means that for action shots, if your subject moves a little out of your focus plane, your shot OOF. ie. a very narrow DOF means that your tolerance for focused shots will be lower.

As an example, for me, I want more DOF. And I like nice bokeh, and this may seem like contradiction to many, but its not. And I want my portraits to look pleasing. I hate to take photos of people, and only one face is sharp and the rest is blur. As such, I want more DOF, not less. Already on 4/3 system, aperture of f2 is just about enough for single person portraits. If you are shooting groups, at least f2.8 or even 3.5 or more is needed. If you want to shoot group portraits at f2, then you need to buy an even smaller sensor system eg. X10 or the XZ1. In 135 FF system, if you are shooting groups, your ultra-expensive and large f2.8 L lens, is useless. You cannot shoot at f2.8. YOu have to shoot maybe f5.6 or so to get everyone's face in focus. In 4/3, the DOF of equivalent aperture is roughly doubled that with comparable 135 FF focal lengths. The important advantage of being able to get adequate DOF in 4/3 while shooting at larger apertures or low F numbers, is that you can use much lower ISO values (100-200 is what I consider low ISO values). This is a significant advantage too but this is something that I only appreciated after years of shooting.

Large sensor, large aperture, and long focal lengths does not mean that your bokeh is nice. Bokeh is largely determined by lens construction, the glass and the diaphragm of the aperture. I find that my portrait lenses on 4/3 particularly 50 mm f2, 45 f1.8, 150 f2, have one of the best bokehs around. Super smooth and silky. The other lens factor is closest focusing distance. On the 4/3 HG lenses, they all are made to allow close focusing. Sometimes even down to 1-2 cm or 10 cm. You do not even appreciate this until you go and buy a $10000 leica lens and realized that you need to stand 1 m away to shoot that salt shaker on the table instead of shooting it from a sitting position. A closer focusing distance allows you to narrow your DOF, and thus allows you to blur the background more. So, having a lens with a very close focusing distance allows you to get more blurring. This is something that many people are now aware of. Finally, the subject background distance is important. The more, the more background blurring. So you see, Its true you need to be close to your subject to get narrower DOF but you also get more foreground-background separation. But also, too close, you get perspective distortion - and I think this is your concern right?

So in general, for portraits, it is recommended that you shoot further away so that you get LESS foreground-background separation. This is to make the nose look less big and prominent and to flatten facial features which apparently is more pleasing.

4/3 systems and now the m4/3 systems ticks all the above boxes for me, as well as giving me a compact system that is easy to carry around. There are other advantages too, which are not mentioned here because this is about perspective etc. The other advantages are punchy colours from the OOC JPEGs. The second is that the JPEGS are so good, RAW development is rarely necessary. The third thing is that the lenses are very good and a capable of producing super tack sharp images. Sharp to me means that in a head shot, you zoom in and see the blood vessels in the white of the eye and the details of the eye lashes. If the lens cannot do that, it is not sharp. Also, the lens should be able to do that at wide open maximum aperture. There are many lenses non 4/3 lenses out there which are f1, f1.8 or f2, but are soft wide open and to get decent sharpness, you need to shoot at f2.8 or more. So...defeats the purpose. Remember, a longer focal length lens, or a larger aperture lens, is exponentially larger in terms of size and weight. So, 4/3 has this advantage because I only need to carry the size and weight of a 50 mm lens which can achieve a 100 mm lens effect.
 

I think this is the failure of the 4/3 system marketing as well as the success of Canon marketing. Canon have marketed so well and everyone is psychoed into larger sensor better performance. But really, it is hard to market the benefits or advantages of the 4/3 system. It is too technical and even for me, took me some years to actually start to appreciate it.

In any case, you need to be clearer - do you want to be further away or nearer to your subject? Or do you want narrow DOF? Or do you want less or more background-foreground separation? When you talk about perspective, I thought that you were talking about foreground-background separation.

There is no system that can do everything. Every system has its strengths and you choose the system that best matches your requirements. It is just the physical limition of each system. Larger sensor, narrower DOF, better IQ, better noise control. What they never tell you is that narrower DOF, more out of focus shots. What they never tell you is that narrower DOF, means for group portraits or landscapes etc, you cannot shoot at larger apertures and so have to shoot at smaller apertures. This means that ISO has to be higher, which affects dynamic range etc. Shutter speed also has to be lower, which means that if you have no IS, you need tripod etc. Narrower DOF means that for action shots, if your subject moves a little out of your focus plane, your shot OOF. ie. a very narrow DOF means that your tolerance for focused shots will be lower.

As an example, for me, I want more DOF. And I like nice bokeh, and this may seem like contradiction to many, but its not. And I want my portraits to look pleasing. I hate to take photos of people, and only one face is sharp and the rest is blur. As such, I want more DOF, not less. Already on 4/3 system, aperture of f2 is just about enough for single person portraits. If you are shooting groups, at least f2.8 or even 3.5 or more is needed. If you want to shoot group portraits at f2, then you need to buy an even smaller sensor system eg. X10 or the XZ1. In 135 FF system, if you are shooting groups, your ultra-expensive and large f2.8 L lens, is useless. You cannot shoot at f2.8. YOu have to shoot maybe f5.6 or so to get everyone's face in focus. In 4/3, the DOF of equivalent aperture is roughly doubled that with comparable 135 FF focal lengths. The important advantage of being able to get adequate DOF in 4/3 while shooting at larger apertures or low F numbers, is that you can use much lower ISO values (100-200 is what I consider low ISO values). This is a significant advantage too but this is something that I only appreciated after years of shooting.

Large sensor, large aperture, and long focal lengths does not mean that your bokeh is nice. Bokeh is largely determined by lens construction, the glass and the diaphragm of the aperture. I find that my portrait lenses on 4/3 particularly 50 mm f2, 45 f1.8, 150 f2, have one of the best bokehs around. Super smooth and silky. The other lens factor is closest focusing distance. On the 4/3 HG lenses, they all are made to allow close focusing. Sometimes even down to 1-2 cm or 10 cm. You do not even appreciate this until you go and buy a $10000 leica lens and realized that you need to stand 1 m away to shoot that salt shaker on the table instead of shooting it from a sitting position. A closer focusing distance allows you to narrow your DOF, and thus allows you to blur the background more. So, having a lens with a very close focusing distance allows you to get more blurring. This is something that many people are now aware of. Finally, the subject background distance is important. The more, the more background blurring. So you see, Its true you need to be close to your subject to get narrower DOF but you also get more foreground-background separation. But also, too close, you get perspective distortion - and I think this is your concern right?

So in general, for portraits, it is recommended that you shoot further away so that you get LESS foreground-background separation. This is to make the nose look less big and prominent and to flatten facial features which apparently is more pleasing.

4/3 systems and now the m4/3 systems ticks all the above boxes for me, as well as giving me a compact system that is easy to carry around. There are other advantages too, which are not mentioned here because this is about perspective etc. The other advantages are punchy colours from the OOC JPEGs. The second is that the JPEGS are so good, RAW development is rarely necessary. The third thing is that the lenses are very good and a capable of producing super tack sharp images. Sharp to me means that in a head shot, you zoom in and see the blood vessels in the white of the eye and the details of the eye lashes. If the lens cannot do that, it is not sharp. Also, the lens should be able to do that at wide open maximum aperture. There are many lenses non 4/3 lenses out there which are f1, f1.8 or f2, but are soft wide open and to get decent sharpness, you need to shoot at f2.8 or more. So...defeats the purpose. Remember, a longer focal length lens, or a larger aperture lens, is exponentially larger in terms of size and weight. So, 4/3 has this advantage because I only need to carry the size and weight of a 50 mm lens which can achieve a 100 mm lens effect.

Thank you for your time to write this detail post!

Im not trying to say which system is the better because the battle will be never ending as everyone vision their photography in a different direction.

To clarify further, I dont think a 200mm lens gives you a 400mm lens worth of zoom. Am i right to say so? Since crop sensor sees less, it gives you the crop of the 400mm lens but not the zoom.
 

Thank you for your time to write this detail post!

Im not trying to say which system is the better because the battle will be never ending as everyone vision their photography in a different direction.

To clarify further, I dont think a 200mm lens gives you a 400mm lens worth of zoom. Am i right to say so? Since crop sensor sees less, it gives you the crop of the 400mm lens but not the zoom.


Let see , say we shoot at the same distance. You are using Fullframe 200mm lens, I am using the same lens on M4/3. We are focusing on a XMM seated at a bench. What do you think the results will be when we compare our photos ? :)
 

We will get an image with the same focal length but the Full frame 2x more
 

Atarandas said:
Let see , say we shoot at the same distance. You are using Fullframe 200mm lens, I am using the same lens on M4/3. We are focusing on a XMM seated at a bench. What do you think the results will be when we compare our photos ? :)

There will be more XMM to see on the 4/3 format.

TS - dun believe go n shoot one with 200 mm lens native on each format. U need to try n see and compare to see wat u like n want.
 

tgxworld said:
Thank you for your time to write this detail post!

Im not trying to say which system is the better because the battle will be never ending as everyone vision their photography in a different direction.

To clarify further, I dont think a 200mm lens gives you a 400mm lens worth of zoom. Am i right to say so? Since crop sensor sees less, it gives you the crop of the 400mm lens but not the zoom.

Not trying to convince you. U ask me to expound the advantages, so i did. Its not a brand war. In fact i m happy to c u go 135 full frame. Nothing gained by me if u go 4/3. All this is for information n discussion.
 

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