Perspective Issues on Olympus Crop system

[K3N]

There's another interesting thing about Olympus FourThirds lenses.
They make zooms with floating lens elements.

All SHG lenses except 90-250mm have floating lens elements.
Olympus 11-22mm, 14-54mm and 12-60mm have floating lens elements as well.

Floating lens elements can be found in prime lenses like Leica 35mm F/1.4 FLE, Canon 24mm F1.4L II, Nikkor 28mm F/1.4D but so far I've not seen zoom lenses with floating lens elements except from Olympus..

 

[tgxworld]

There will be more XMM to see on the 4/3 format.

TS - dun believe go n shoot one with 200 mm lens native on each format. U need to try n see and compare to see wat u like n want.

Hmm i dont have a full frame to try. Care to explain?

I think you mean the subject will appear bigger?

Not trying to convince you. U ask me to expound the advantages, so i did. Its not a brand war. In fact i m happy to c u go 135 full frame. Nothing gained by me if u go 4/3. All this is for information n discussion.

Im using E5 at the moment. The perspective issue was smth that crossed my mind while i was shooting with it

 

[Oly5050]

I'm a little confused by what you're saying now hahahah.

a 200mm lens won't give you 400mm worth of zooming in since its a 200mm, crop sensors see less of the FF lens, but they do not give you the crop of a 400mm lens since you're using a 200mm hahaha.

Basically, using a 200mm lens on a sensor made for it, like 200mm on a FF, will give you a certain view, lets call this X, using that same lens on a sensor like the 4/3, gives you a view 2X, so to get X, you have to use a 100mm lens to get the equivalent of 200mm on FF. I am now lost in what I'm saying hahahah.

I guess to put it simply,using a prime lens, a X value lens will always be X value, how much it can "zoom" in therefore depends on the sensor, if the lens is say... an 80mm medium format lens, and we use a sensor half of the medium format sensor, it will become 160mm.

If we use the lens on a sensor a quarter size of the medium format sensor, it becomes 320mm since its 8 X 4, my maths may be wrong, but that's how I understand it.

Its like cropping it digitally, it gives the "illusion" that its zooming in even further, but you get full resolution at the cost of pixel density which becomes another story all together.

The lens is the same, but the view from the same position on different sensor sizes differ, to get the equivilent of a control camera with a control lens, in the example used is a medium format with 80mm lens, on a sensor 1/2 of medium format will be 40 and a sensor 1/4 of the medium format would be 20mm

Now we are all confused too! Hahaha!

 

[tgxworld]

I'm a little confused by what you're saying now hahahah.

a 200mm lens won't give you 400mm worth of zooming in since its a 200mm, crop sensors see less of the FF lens, but they do not give you the crop of a 400mm lens since you're using a 200mm hahaha.

Basically, using a 200mm lens on a sensor made for it, like 200mm on a FF, will give you a certain view, lets call this X, using that same lens on a sensor like the 4/3, gives you a view 2X, so to get X, you have to use a 100mm lens to get the equivalent of 200mm on FF. I am now lost in what I'm saying hahahah.

I guess to put it simply,using a prime lens, a X value lens will always be X value, how much it can "zoom" in therefore depends on the sensor, if the lens is say... an 80mm medium format lens, and we use a sensor half of the medium format sensor, it will become 160mm.

If we use the lens on a sensor a quarter size of the medium format sensor, it becomes 320mm since its 8 X 4, my maths may be wrong, but that's how I understand it.

Its like cropping it digitally, it gives the "illusion" that its zooming in even further, but you get full resolution at the cost of pixel density which becomes another story all together.

The lens is the same, but the view from the same position on different sensor sizes differ, to get the equivilent of a control camera with a control lens, in the example used is a medium format with 80mm lens, on a sensor 1/2 of medium format will be 40 and a sensor 1/4 of the medium format would be 20mm

what i mean is that on A FF 200mm lens, i might see 2 trees and a bird. But on a 4/3 sensor because it sees half of what a 200mm sees. So it only sees the bird. Am i right to say so?

 

[spidey89]

Scrap what I said, I've made 2 diagrams, hope it helps, also, please ignore the fact that the cameras are placed side by size and the angle the "light" is traveling is wrong, this is my understanding and its not what others have said, so it may or may not be correct

 

[rasdeep]

omg, you guys make it so confusing..

lets try it this way... you have two cameras, a FF and a m43 cameras setup on a tripod next to each other..

FF with 200mm @ f4 and m43 with 100mm @ f2... take a photo each and they look exactly the same because the FOV is the same because of the 2x crop. Even the DOF is also similar. So the 100mm has an equivalent focal length of 200mm on a FF format

I have the D700 and D7k and tried this many times.. D700 with 50mm and D7k with 35mm, sitting at the same spot taking picture, the photo looks the same because of the same FOV due to 1.5x crop

 

[Diginaut]

Ok. Let's try to make it as simple as possible. We do not talk about camera lenses for the time being.
Let's say we are in a park sitting on a bench and looking at a pretty lady sitting opposite us. Our eyes (lens) see the pretty lady with the focal length of our eyes. Now take a cardboard frame with an opening of 36cm by 24cm (FF sensor ) and look through it, keeping the lady in the centre. You will see the lady and whatever surrounding her in the frame. Now maintaining the same position, take a cardboard frame with an opening of 18cm by 12 cm ( half frame sensor ) and look through it. You should see the lady in exactly the same perspective as through the bigger opening but the scenary surrounding her will be cut off.
Now if you will want to see exactly the same thing as you have seen through the bigger opening, you will have to move backwards, but then the perspective will have change as things surrounding the subject will line up differently.
I hope what I wrote above makes sense.
I have not talk about aspect ratio yet.

 

[elgkh]

Here's a comparison that I found very enlightening :

Testing Lens Bokeh on Full Frame and Micro 4/3 cameras | STEVE HUFF PHOTOS

 

[albertri]

DOF is determined by Aperture and subject to camera distance. Sensor size should have nothing to do with it.

what WongLP was saying if you use the same lens in his example 50mm f1.4 on a full frame body and m4/3. There's a difference in DOF due to sensor size. pls read this article and scroll down a bit

Digital Camera Sensor Sizes: How it Influences Your Photography

As I may quote in the article "if one used a 50 mm f/1.4 lens on a full frame sensor, this would produce a depth of field so shallow it would require an aperture of 0.9 on a camera with a 1.6X crop factor "

And another one

"A shallower depth of field may be desirable for portraits because it improves background blur, whereas a larger depth of field is desirable for landscape photography. This is why compact cameras struggle to produce significant background blur in portraits, while large format cameras struggle to produce adequate depth of field in landscapes"

 

[tgxworld]

what WongLP was saying if you use the same lens in his example 50mm f1.4 on a full frame body and m4/3. There's a difference in DOF due to sensor size. pls read this article and scroll down a bit

Digital Camera Sensor Sizes: How it Influences Your Photography

As I may quote in the article "if one used a 50 mm f/1.4 lens on a full frame sensor, this would produce a depth of field so shallow it would require an aperture of 0.9 on a camera with a 1.6X crop factor "

And another one

"A shallower depth of field may be desirable for portraits because it improves background blur, whereas a larger depth of field is desirable for landscape photography. This is why compact cameras struggle to produce significant background blur in portraits, while large format cameras struggle to produce adequate depth of field in landscapes"

But this sentence contradicts what was written after.

"This is because larger sensors require one to get closer to their subject, or to use a longer focal length in order to fill the frame with that subject. This means that one has to use progressively smaller aperture sizes in order to maintain the same depth of field on larger sensors."

Anyway guys, i realized that all this are getting too technical which i guess has no significant use unless i happen to be shooting a full frame and 4/3. Thanks for all your help!! really gained alot fo knowledge here.

 

[rasdeep]

But this sentence contradicts what was written after.

"This is because larger sensors require one to get closer to their subject, or to use a longer focal length in order to fill the frame with that subject. This means that one has to use progressively smaller aperture sizes in order to maintain the same depth of field on larger sensors."

Anyway guys, i realized that all this are getting too technical which i guess has no significant use unless i happen to be shooting a full frame and 4/3. Thanks for all your help!! really gained alot fo knowledge here.

the sentence is correct, after all the simple explanations from so many bros and you still dont get it.. shoot more and you will learn

 

[spidey89]

the sentence is correct, after all the simple explanations from so many bros and you still dont get it.. shoot more and you will learn

I honestly won't be troubled by the why this happens but more important, I should know how it happens so I can either prevent it or make it happen when shooting, we're not engineers, we don't need to know how thing thing gets other things done, we just need to know how to make it get the work done

 

[wonglp]

But this sentence contradicts what was written after.


Anyway guys, i realized that all this are getting too technical which i guess has no significant use unless i happen to be shooting a full frame and 4/3. Thanks for all your help!! really gained alot fo knowledge here.

I suppose you should understand now that using a same lens on different sensor size body at same distance will yield a more magnified view on the m43.

Maybe pictures can explain more? Simple test to have a same framing of main object (lens box), focus is on the serial number on both a FF camera and Pen E-PL1, both using a manual 50mm/1.4 lens. Pls pardon the colors, slight OOF on the FF as its a challenge to use at F2 ;p and the white balance, main purpose to explain 2 things : DOF and perspective. Test is done at F2, but I tried to frame them almost similar. Sensor size does affect DOF, you can see on m43 epl1, you can see words "olympus pen" on the top of the box, whereas on FF camera, you can see clearly. As for perspective, you can see the white box size is different (larger on the m43), as it FOV is of 100mm rather than 50mm, the box is more compressed now with m43. Hope this is clearer.

Olympus m43 E-PL1 + manual lens 50/1.4 @ F2

Full frame camera + manual lens 50/1.4 @ F2

 

[tgxworld]

I suppose you should understand now that using a same lens on different sensor size body at same distance will yield a more magnified view on the m43.

Maybe pictures can explain more? Simple test to have a same framing of main object (lens box), focus is on the serial number on both a FF camera and Pen E-PL1, both using a manual 50mm/1.4 lens. Pls pardon the colors, slight OOF on the FF as its a challenge to use at F2 ;p and the white balance, main purpose to explain 2 things : DOF and perspective. Test is done at F2, but I tried to frame them almost similar. Sensor size does affect DOF, you can see on m43 epl1, you can see words "olympus pen" on the top of the box, whereas on FF camera, you can see clearly. As for perspective, you can see the white box size is different (larger on the m43), as it FOV is of 100mm rather than 50mm, the box is more compressed now with m43. Hope this is clearer.

Wa now its even more confusing.....

First they were saying Perspective is determined by camera to subject distance. But now you're saying it's affect by focal length as well.

 

[albertri]

I think the best we could all do now is just enjoy photography and let's stop talking about DOF/Perspective etc. Enjoy what we have now what ever format, brand and sizes =) we are all bonded here in CS due to our love in photography..... =) not brand/sensor size does it?

 

[KYFoong]

Wa now its even more confusing.....

First they were saying Perspective is determined by camera to subject distance. But now you're saying it's affect by focal length as well.

I have been following this thread and I have seldom seen such patience and nice people here telling you exactly what you asked. I am old uncle and have learned a lot from younger folks (such as Wong LP and few others). I have to say something which may sound offensive but my intend is not to discourage you from asking but to help you find the answers that you are looking for. I frankly think that you have moved the goal post many times and when an answer has been given you come out with some other things. This is not a discussion that would end (though like the rest, you have been very courteous and cordial). It is best that you show us some of your shots and point out what you like to clarify. I am also a Nikon shooter (1.5x crop Nikon D90) and sometimes shoot with my friend's FF (Nikon D700). Now that I have an EP3, I have few shots of the same subject with the same lens but mounted on different camera bodies. In a very short time I understand what the differences are. If you need to test out, we can meet and I let you handle my camera and lenses so that you can verify and find the answers that you are seeking. Actually from a theory point of view this is not easy to grasp but if you do a practical lesson, all would be clear. All your confusion will be cleared up. Sorry if I read wrong but you seem to be accepting the explanations yet asking new questions and poking up new questions that seem to beat around the topic. I hope that this would not cause a flare up. Honestly I learned a lot from this thread and some of my earlier "confusion" has been cleared through the write up here.
Again there is nothing wrong to ask but please do so topic by topic. We all learn this way.

 

[tgxworld]

I have been following this thread and I have seldom seen such patience and nice people here telling you exactly what you asked. I am old uncle and have learned a lot from younger folks (such as Wong LP and few others). I have to say something which may sound offensive but my intend is not to discourage you from asking but to help you find the answers that you are looking for. I frankly think that you have moved the goal post many times and when an answer has been given you come out with some other things. This is not a discussion that would end (though like the rest, you have been very courteous and cordial). It is best that you show us some of your shots and point out what you like to clarify. I am also a Nikon shooter (1.5x crop Nikon D90) and sometimes shoot with my friend's FF (Nikon D700). Now that I have an EP3, I have few shots of the same subject with the same lens but mounted on different camera bodies. In a very short time I understand what the differences are. If you need to test out, we can meet and I let you handle my camera and lenses so that you can verify and find the answers that you are seeking. Actually from a theory point of view this is not easy to grasp but if you do a practical lesson, all would be clear. All your confusion will be cleared up. Sorry if I read wrong but you seem to be accepting the explanations yet asking new questions and poking up new questions that seem to beat around the topic. I hope that this would not cause a flare up. Honestly I learned a lot from this thread and some of my earlier "confusion" has been cleared through the write up here.
Again there is nothing wrong to ask but please do so topic by topic. We all learn this way.

I guess that as the explainations come up, i start to notice different things which is why it sort of went from a perspective discussion to more of difference between crop and FF. However, i've started to realize that the difference is so insignificant that as long as i want a compression (i go telephoto) or i want to stretch the photo (i go wide) and my E5 is giving me that then the sensor size wouldnt really matter.

But i really apreciate the many replies im getting. This goes to show that the people in this online community are very willing to share! Thanks alot for the help everyone! Especially Oly1505!

 

[spidey89]

it matters, but only to if you're a physicists hahahah

 

[albertri]

I have been following this thread and I have seldom seen such patience and nice people here telling you exactly what you asked. I am old uncle and have learned a lot from younger folks (such as Wong LP and few others). I have to say something which may sound offensive but my intend is not to discourage you from asking but to help you find the answers that you are looking for. I frankly think that you have moved the goal post many times and when an answer has been given you come out with some other things. This is not a discussion that would end (though like the rest, you have been very courteous and cordial). It is best that you show us some of your shots and point out what you like to clarify. I am also a Nikon shooter (1.5x crop Nikon D90) and sometimes shoot with my friend's FF (Nikon D700). Now that I have an EP3, I have few shots of the same subject with the same lens but mounted on different camera bodies. In a very short time I understand what the differences are. If you need to test out, we can meet and I let you handle my camera and lenses so that you can verify and find the answers that you are seeking. Actually from a theory point of view this is not easy to grasp but if you do a practical lesson, all would be clear. All your confusion will be cleared up. Sorry if I read wrong but you seem to be accepting the explanations yet asking new questions and poking up new questions that seem to beat around the topic. I hope that this would not cause a flare up. Honestly I learned a lot from this thread and some of my earlier "confusion" has been cleared through the write up here.
Again there is nothing wrong to ask but please do so topic by topic. We all learn this way.

Yeah most of the Oly CSer are very nice folks specially Mr. WongLp he's one of the kindest person here in Oly Forum =)

Kudos to all seniors here most of the time they tolerate these things here and would still response politely =)

 

[albertri]

it matters, but only to if you're a physicists hahahah

I'm one lolz (just kidding)