Only for those who want to learn Something.

[zoossh]

you cannot use these images for any commercial purpose or your website

why not? since you didn't commission those pictures at the appropriate rate (actually none at all), the copyright of the photographs will naturally goes to the photographer.

it is ok if you would not pay the PA as an exchange for teaching. it is also ok for the PA to give a copy of their photos to for example a wedding couple as a gift in exchange for the learning experience they gain. but i see no reason for taking away their copyrights.

if they take those pictures, they should be able to post it on their website as their own. if they are commissioned by a paying party who subsequently owns the commerical rights of the pictures, they cannot use these pictures for other commercial purposes. but outside of these circumstances, i think there is no moral grounds or legal binding rights to it.

 

[cosycatus]

In a normal case and in the absence of an agreement otherwise, yes the copyright belongs to the person who commissioend the job.

However, in THIS case, it may not be so clear. The company client did not hire the student; it is YOU who hired the student. The student has no obligation to the company nor has the company commissioend the student to do the job. Hence it may not be as clearcut as you say. You may need an express assignment from the student if you want to avoid any problems later on.

Go check with your photography lawyer on the above since you have one.

I really dun understand why some people are ALWAYS so adamant to trash someone else thread. Sense of self righteousness? A misplaced one i would say.

Most of the time, things are very simple. Keep it that way.

1) right of pictures. frankly, who REALLY cares? I tag along to shoot a event, if my mentor wants to use it for his client, go ahead. At least it means my pictures are good. If ANY mentor needs ur pictures soley to survive, then he clearly have no substance.

As people have more education, they tend to urgue more, demand more, think of weird situation and end up screwing themselves and pissing others off.
In the good ole days, where got so many things like what vince says above?

EVEN if things are so complicated, WORSE come to WORSE, you just shoot for nothing for a few hours. YOU WOULDN'T DIE.

2) exploitation? Come on la. EVEN if it's REALLY exploitation ( like being a FREE PA) ,you wouldn't die RITE?

3) if u are so scared of (1) & (2), dun reply la.

SIMPLE

Clubsnap is really a place with losta funny people.

 

[zoossh]

1) right of pictures. frankly, who REALLY cares? I tag along to shoot a event, if my mentor wants to use it for his client, go ahead. At least it means my pictures are good. If ANY mentor needs ur pictures soley to survive, then he clearly have no substance.

yes, use them. but the photograph still belong to the person who took them, and they can use them for other purposes, whether on their own website or for commerical purposes.

 

[Free Agent]

Just simply don't understand some straight minds.

However I had met two great guy today , one come with experience but doesn't mind opening his door for opportunity, another one was very inspirit about the work of a Photographer.

I'm very relieved that I saw the younger me in them.

Thanks guys your effort had shown me good attitube .

Others who are interested to join me next time ps don't be dishearted , just follow your heart if you think that you could agree with my term in exchange for your gain then just PM me .

Pan

 

[Yezrah]

I believe Free Agent came in with good intentions. Nothing in this world is free. Perhaps, every trade has its own way to get started also. Yet, there is this thing called MOM. I think it is only fair to give workers an employment contract, stating down the terms and if there are any working conditions that fall below MOM's regulations, it should be informed to the worker as well. It is only a matter of time when one feels a sense of injustice working for free or undermarket rates. There are already many students out there who felt a sense of injustice when they can't find a job after graduation. Do we wish to rear a devil in our backyard to take revenge on people whom they felt to have cheated on them or do we really want to groom the next generation so that they can lead a better living?

 

[vince123123]

Well, the choice of whether to take it up is really up to the individual, you are entitled to your opinion, and so are others. Some may not see the same way as you, as you with others. The only point I was making is that terms must be certain and clear and known in advance - after that it is up to each person whether he wants to accept the terms or not.

But, if you don't even know what they are, then how can anyone be sure what they are getting themselves into?

I really dun understand why some people are ALWAYS so adamant to trash someone else thread. Sense of self righteousness? A misplaced one i would say.

Most of the time, things are very simple. Keep it that way.

1) right of pictures. frankly, who REALLY cares? I tag along to shoot a event, if my mentor wants to use it for his client, go ahead. At least it means my pictures are good. If ANY mentor needs ur pictures soley to survive, then he clearly have no substance.

As people have more education, they tend to urgue more, demand more, think of weird situation and end up screwing themselves and pissing others off.
In the good ole days, where got so many things like what vince says above?

EVEN if things are so complicated, WORSE come to WORSE, you just shoot for nothing for a few hours. YOU WOULDN'T DIE.

2) exploitation? Come on la. EVEN if it's REALLY exploitation ( like being a FREE PA) ,you wouldn't die RITE?

3) if u are so scared of (1) & (2), dun reply la.

SIMPLE

Clubsnap is really a place with losta funny people.

 

[zoossh]

yah, i'm still wondering why the copyrights of the photographers would be and should be taken away - i think the answer shouldn't be that complicated rite?

 

[zoossh]

1) right of pictures. frankly, who REALLY cares?

would you care if you are not allowed to use your own photos or even get sued for using them, when it is your natural entitlement to the pictures?

 

[XC Pictorial]

would you care if you are not allowed to use your own photos or even get sued for using them, when it is your natural entitlement to the pictures?

Agree with you on this.

To those who are aint commercial photogs or even paid for the job, apart from the utils derive from the process of shooting. You wont get any ROI considering your cost in your DSLR, transport, opportunity cost and a whole long list of them... The only thing you have ultimately are the puny rights to your pictures/works, whether is it worth anything at all. If even that little cant be protected then what do you have?

Anyway i have decided not to shoot for free since many years ago. :bsmilie:

 

[XC Pictorial]

Well, the choice of whether to take it up is really up to the individual, you are entitled to your opinion, and so are others. Some may not see the same way as you, as you with others. The only point I was making is that terms must be certain and clear and known in advance - after that it is up to each person whether he wants to accept the terms or not.

But, if you don't even know what they are, then how can anyone be sure what they are getting themselves into?

Anyway chill, vince..

Many wont see our way. But its a free market working on demand and supply.

Supply is in huge excess, there is a large market to be exploit, why not? :bsmilie:

 

[ellery]

In a normal case and in the absence of an agreement otherwise, yes the copyright belongs to the person who commissioend the job.

However, in THIS case, it may not be so clear. The company client did not hire the student; it is YOU who hired the student. The student has no obligation to the company nor has the company commissioend the student to do the job. Hence it may not be as clearcut as you say. You may need an express assignment from the student if you want to avoid any problems later on.

Go check with your photography lawyer on the above since you have one.

Vince the problem here is there is a silence on payment which normally means none will appear. What would you expect from some one who pays assistant what was it in an earlier thread $40 ? $50? Also there is no check for skill set match to job - meaning this could be a no brainer as long as got picture can "learning job" which probably mean learner will not be learning any thing new.

It is a lot like some TS who are looking for an assistant for overseas shoot covering ticket, room and food with only $100 per day - of course overseas shoots are normally more demanding that local shoots after it costs a lot more to run one on a per day basis and the need to deliver mean working more and harder. But it kinda silly to use a non pro assistant for an overseas shoot.


Have taken in sub out jobs from full time pros before, what I can say is the class acts normally pay extra above what is agreed if the work submitted back is above what they expected. Recognition and mutal respect goes along way to making sure that a vendor does take up jobs from the source again. Hell even direct clients some times do pay extra in recogniton of job well done. Not always but often enough to be a clear sign that it's running smoothly.

 

[LazerLordz]

Training photos should be retained by the "trainee" with all rights reserved.Well, that is if the trainer is actually more concerned with grooming his chap, than taking those photos for his own use.

That's my two cents.

 

[vince123123]

Heheh, well, I don't have that much a problem with open exploitation as with hidden exploitation. If the student knows and is willing to be exploited (for whatever reasons he may have), then its a mutual agreement between two. If the student doesn't know and gets into it, and later gets "conned", then it is the fault of the teacher for not making things clear to begin with (and this is what I'm trying to avoid here by asking all those questions).

Anyway chill, vince..

Many wont see our way. But its a free market working on demand and supply.

Supply is in huge excess, there is a large market to be exploit, why not? :bsmilie:

 

[eikin]

I'm doing an event Photography for a friend tomorrow Sat 210407 in a hotel .(12.30 to 4pm) Free food supply .

And I'm looking for one hardworking and responsible young man or lady to learn from me . You need to own a basic digital SLR camera with flash , you will not get any fees as you are allowed to shoot side by side with me just to learn , images taken by you is for trianing purpose only , you cannot use these images for any commercial purpose or your website .

The deal is that i can train you and later I can give you some pr job and at the same time you can asisst me in my commercial shoot , (this depend on your learning atitube) .

It's a very long learning process , if you think you can take the challenge just buzz in .

Pan
Regards

i suppose Free Agent meant 'training purpose only'

i think this is the key point, if Free Agent is trying to exploit pictures from free shooters, he will be contradicting himself. he will not be able to use the learner's pictures as he said it himself that it will be for training purpose only, and the term he is setting is that the learner cannot make use of the pictures to promote himself/herself or make monetary gains.

compare this with paying a few hundred bucks to pick up some courses, i do see this as a learning opportunity for those who are really interested to learn.

 

[Free Agent]

Well I'm so excited now . People are so interested in copy right . I dun know whether you are a full time photographer or just hobby ent.. . But the way you guys make the copy right issue seem so easy to approach , it appear to me you guys had miss out many thing in our business , as I say before Our lawyer can answer your question and if you are willing to see him ps let me know but of course the time fees for the lawyer will be on you. Don't be shy , don't write we must make some action , we must do something for all the Photographer and their asisstant in Singapore then they will earn as much as any photographer in New York . We must charge every single picture right .

I come to look for someone i can relate and trust .

And again I'm happy that many here still interested. Will keep you guys posted for future opportunity.

Thanks.

 

[Hawaiisg]

what is the difference between doing this gig for TS and coming out of a uni and doing an internship?

When you do an internship, aren't you working for a company for free? Aren't they using the work you do to help their business in exchange for your experience? Didn't you buy nice clothes get a haircut, bathe, and need transportation to and from work with no ROI for that specific job?

Personally I would say relax...if people want to do the gig, so be it. one thing I've learned in CS, seems people want others to conform to them or to a certain way. got some news, everyone has different wants, needs, aspirations. they may not care about copyrights, they may not care about pay. only TS knows the true meaning of posting this thread, either for cheap labour or to genuinely help. so why can't people just let it go, and let the people who took the gigs decide, ultimatley that's what matters. if they learned great, post it up. if they feel it wasn't a fair trade and were exploited, then post it up also, but to continuously play ping pong on this topic is ridiculous.

yeah yeah i know...but this, but that, what if, should be like this, should be like that, you don't understand...this forum can play all the scenarios it want because it's like saying if my aunty had balls she would be my uncle. so until its done, none of us know squat about TS motives and in this case i would give him the benefit of the doubt. let the people who took the gig decide if it was fair because that's who it will matter most to. If TS provided good service and helped those that wanted to learn then praise him, thank him. if he didn't then stone him but for pitty sakes let it be.

however I will say one thing...if TS continuously looks for this kind of trade off then he should expect others to view him as one who is just really out to get free/cheap labour. so to TS, i would be careful on how many times i "offer" these things.

peace

 

[XC Pictorial]

what is the difference between doing this gig for TS and coming out of a uni and doing an internship?

When you do an internship, aren't you working for a company for free? Aren't they using the work you do to help their business in exchange for your experience? Didn't you buy nice clothes get a haircut, bathe, and need transportation to and from work with no ROI for that specific job?

peace

My fiancee got 2.5K when doing pupilage before becoming a lawyer...

But anyway i guess when you do an internship you are guaranteed ROI in terms of the Name of the company you worked for or the work you did for them.

Which is good for adding to your resume.

However those putting up ads here doesnt seem very keen or revealing as peter asked..

And images taken by the "intern" cant be used for his commercial portfolio?

 

[Isaiahfortythirtyone]

In a normal case and in the absence of an agreement otherwise, yes the copyright belongs to the person who commissioend the job.

However, in THIS case, it may not be so clear. The company client did not hire the student; it is YOU who hired the student. The student has no obligation to the company nor has the company commissioend the student to do the job. Hence it may not be as clearcut as you say. You may need an express assignment from the student if you want to avoid any problems later on.

Go check with your photography lawyer on the above since you have one.

:thumbsup:

 

[vince123123]

1. Tell us what we have missed out.

2. It doesn't help that you always refer us to "your lawyer". Anyone can pay to get an answer to a lawyer, and giving this sort of response isn't helpful at all. I can easily tell you this: "You are wrong, don't believe? Go pay and file a lawsuit and get a Court Judge to tell you the answer", but I won't do so, because that makes me no better than you.

Well I'm so excited now . People are so interested in copy right . I dun know whether you are a full time photographer or just hobby ent.. . But the way you guys make the copy right issue seem so easy to approach , it appear to me you guys had miss out many thing in our business , as I say before Our lawyer can answer your question and if you are willing to see him ps let me know but of course the time fees for the lawyer will be on you. Don't be shy , don't write we must make some action , we must do something for all the Photographer and their asisstant in Singapore then they will earn as much as any photographer in New York . We must charge every single picture right .

I come to look for someone i can relate and trust .

And again I'm happy that many here still interested. Will keep you guys posted for future opportunity.

Thanks.

 

[vince123123]

Addon: By the way, he is not "your lawyer" if we pay him to tell us an answer we want ot know. He is just "a lawyer", or "the lawyer you consult on other business". He is not "YOUR" lawyer.

1. Tell us what we have missed out.

2. It doesn't help that you always refer us to "your lawyer". Anyone can pay to get an answer to a lawyer, and giving this sort of response isn't helpful at all. I can easily tell you this: "You are wrong, don't believe? Go pay and file a lawsuit and get a Court Judge to tell you the answer", but I won't do so, because that makes me no better than you.