Noob question on Rangefinder

[Terence]

When we buy an expensive watch and a premium rangefinder is 2 different issue. We buy spend so much on a watch because its limited in series. Its maker. Its net worth after a few years.

Surely we cant say M8 is limited in series. And Lecia lives on infinitely as a brand name, and i know its tagged with a 'god father' of all lenses. And I doubt very much it will appreciate in value. Unless we're refering Lecia as a vintage. As a collector's item instead.

Surely watch collectors will be reluctant to wear $10,000 watches for routine ocassion. They'll preserve it. Thus, making it more like a symbol of collection instead of its true purpose.

Like a lot of folks have said, owning a Leica or any other expensive collectible item, isn't all about logic and practicality. Certain products have a way about them and Leica is just one of them. You're not the only one who doesn't quite get it, I'm sure many seasoned Leica owners/users find it just as hard to understand to. Like most things, the end consumer is the one person deciding the value of the product. If there's a demand for a high end product, the manufacturer is going to continue charging astronomical prices as long as they feel it's sustainable. It's simple really, as far as pricing goes, but figuring out what makes Leica ownership worthwhile to the end consumer is another thing all together.

You make several statements which shows you're not reading the earlier replies which give you an insight to owning a Leica. Some Leicas do appreciate over time, even gear from their regular product lines. It's a well known fact that prices of new items are raised each year, up to a point where used gear can command prices which are higher than what they were purchased at. And of course there are some Leica items which are a rarity and prices of such gear also appreciate over time. And again, there are collectible versions which also see an appreciation in their value over time.

Leica has been in the woods a couple of times in recent years and was close to bankruptcy . Many see the M8 as their make or break product and judging from current demand and interest, they might just get away with the US$5000 price tag for one.

I know of acquaintaces who regularly wear their collectible watches on a daily basis, just like how some owners of collectible Leicas will use such cameras on a regular basis. IF you've got the moolah, then why not flaunt it (or so they say) and I think this attitude is prevalent amongst the more well heeled Leica owners.

So, my friend, go back and read the earlier replies from everyone. They give a sense of what owning a Leica is like from the perspective of a collector and to a lesser extent that of a user.

 

[Terence]

Buying expensive watch is different thing,you can buy a very expensive car for US10,000,000.but only the jockey knows the car is your,watch is different,every body can see you wearing the watch,expensive watch is mostly collectible and show off only.

Leica is different,I have the M6 and M7 and the Konica RF,which the RF mechanism of Konica miss align about 3 month after I bought it,and focusing in the dim light is a pain for the Konica,this two thing does not happen in Leica RF.

Does your very expensive car have no windows so no one can see you with your very expensive watch and the M6, M7 and Konica RF slung around your neck when you drive?

 

[XXX Boy]

When we buy an expensive watch and a premium rangefinder is 2 different issue. We buy spend so much on a watch because its limited in series. Its maker. Its net worth after a few years.

Surely we cant say M8 is limited in series. And Lecia lives on infinitely as a brand name, and i know its tagged with a 'god father' of all lenses. And I doubt very much it will appreciate in value. Unless we're refering Lecia as a vintage. As a collector's item instead.

Surely watch collectors will be reluctant to wear $10,000 watches for routine ocassion. They'll preserve it. Thus, making it more like a symbol of collection instead of its true purpose.

Bro,
You must try to use a Leica M series before you make any comments. Look at the results yourself esp B&W photos.

 

[shutterspeed]

When we buy an expensive watch and a premium rangefinder is 2 different issue. We buy spend so much on a watch because its limited in series. Its maker. Its net worth after a few years.

Surely we cant say M8 is limited in series. And Lecia lives on infinitely as a brand name, and i know its tagged with a 'god father' of all lenses. And I doubt very much it will appreciate in value. Unless we're refering Lecia as a vintage. As a collector's item instead.

Surely watch collectors will be reluctant to wear $10,000 watches for routine ocassion. They'll preserve it. Thus, making it more like a symbol of collection instead of its true purpose.

Do you think your $10,000 watch (which is not a limited edition) appreciate in value, had the euro not appreciated? Limited edition which appreciates does not come at $10,000.

The M8 and any luxury goods will depreciate over time. No different to the top end DSLR. Even if the sensor on the M8 is smaller that the top end DSLR, can you really tell the difference in 90% of the time? In my limited ability, I can tell the difference between a decent Leica lense and the standard lense in terms of tone, colour rendition ... etc, which will show up on a photo or able to be captured on a 10 MP sensor. Therefore, I don't see what is the big deal about the price of M8, BUT .... I am not buying one.

 

[LKSC]

When we buy an expensive watch and a premium rangefinder is 2 different issue. We buy spend so much on a watch because its limited in series. Its maker. Its net worth after a few years.

Surely we cant say M8 is limited in series. And Lecia lives on infinitely as a brand name, and i know its tagged with a 'god father' of all lenses. And I doubt very much it will appreciate in value. Unless we're refering Lecia as a vintage. As a collector's item instead.

Surely watch collectors will be reluctant to wear $10,000 watches for routine ocassion. They'll preserve it. Thus, making it more like a symbol of collection instead of its true purpose.

You won't be able to understand the whole Leica ethos if you think purely in terms of resale value and rarity.

Contrary to your assumptions, watch collectors do not think like that either. To them a valued time piece will become an heirloom, not something they will sell-off later. And believe me, $10,000 is nothing for a luxury watch - it won't even be considered "collectible".

 

[LENS]

using Leica doesn't make you a better photographer.

People go for different things, fame, passion, happy... let's it be.

 

[Ansel]

Surely watch collectors will be reluctant to wear $10,000 watches for routine ocassion. They'll preserve it. Thus, making it more like a symbol of collection instead of its true purpose.

OT, but you are quite wrong about this. A lot of people with $10+ watches wear them on a regular/daily basis.

 

[Tetrode]

After reading the previews of the M8, and putting Leica cachet/prestige aside, the advantages of owning one is lost on me.

Apart from the fact that it is a digital camera (you cannot upgrade the sensor and the relatively short lifespan it has), plus the two following points...


1. The fact that Leica have opted not to follow the Epson's example of putting in a film advance lever.

2. The fact that Leica have opted to use a vertical travelling shutter instead of a cloth shutter and a motor drive which adds a loud shutter sound effect when taking a photo (totally at odds with the main reason for owning the film version)

Makes me question the value of owning such a beast.

 

[clubgrit]

Well, I've spoken with friends who are going to the launch (by invitation only), and they are just Leica diehards, besides their other toys like Hassies and Rollei. Being digital, I have no interest in it at all, so I gave my invitation card to another friend. They have actually been waiting for it, and they will just buy it because it's a Leica, and I can say price is not a consideration for them.

The one who gave me the invitation had to ask me first - "Are you a Leica fan ?" - that's the catchword ...

Anyway, I hope one of them sells their old Leica film camera to me cheap

 

[clubgrit]

Like a lot of folks have said, owning a Leica or any other expensive collectible item, isn't all about logic and practicality. Certain products have a way about them and Leica is just one of them.

Indeed, it defies logic and practicality. Like some friends have Patek Philippes and Lange & Sohnes and Hublot watches, different ones used each day of the week, and others on automatic winders at home, while I just use my handphone as a watch. One of them used to be in the watch trade, and he educates me that mechanical watches even if it costs $200K will not tell time as precisely as the $10 quartz watch ! But they still love their watches.

I can appreciate their passion, even if I don't understand why (There is actually a high-end watch shop at Funan appropriately called Passions). Same with many of us here I guess, still shooting film, and friends are happy with their $200 to $300 digital cameras. Others will even say why not use a video camera, can capture action ...

 

[ryuggen]

Terence, earlier posts are all about perspectives. Most are talking about emotional attachment with Lecia. As a brand and prestige. The sense of ownership doesnt boils down on technical explanation-which is what i'm seeking for. But most are answering in other forms- heritage, brand, emotion attachment etc.

There wasnt a rational choice in choosing Lecia, if you consider brand name as rational. The $10,000 watch example is an analogy. I thought i'll take away another zero, for the sake of simplicity. The idea is there, not the no. of zeros.

The price may not be stunning for some. But, we're talking about specification vs price, all things constant. Does the price command the specification of the camera? If we're talking about technology goods, its only rational to pay a price for an equivalent specification. For analogy purpose, Sony may first produce the 1st walkman, but it needs to continue its RnD to improve their product line up. Its not likely they will keep producing walkmans basing on the argument that they are the first mover.

P.S-Watches and designer apparels seems to draw a grey area in term of price vs specification. If cameras are also moving to this direction, I guess there isnt any point discussing the price of a M8. Its like saying a swatch and a rolex.

 

[Terence]

Terence, earlier posts are all about perspectives. Most are talking about emotional attachment with Lecia. As a brand and prestige. The sense of ownership doesnt boils down on technical explanation-which is what i'm seeking for. But most are answering in other forms- heritage, brand, emotion attachment etc.

There wasnt a rational choice in choosing Lecia, if you consider brand name as rational. The $10,000 watch example is an analogy. I thought i'll take away another zero, for the sake of simplicity. The idea is there, not the no. of zeros.

And again, you answered your own question. If you haven't gotten it by now, it's gone way past you. Owning a Leica is mostly about emotional attachment to the majority of Leica users. And all of us have said it more than once, there's hardly any rational logic in choosing to own a Leica, other than the fact that some pieces of Leica gear will appreciate in value over time.

Really, read the replies again. Your questions have been answered many times over, perhaps you choose not to see it because it doesn't gel with your line of thinking. Peace, I'm out of here, I've got nothing else useful to add to the discussion.

 

[ricohflex]

ha ha ha
the line of debate seems to be >>>

explain to me

--- various people explain----

not good enough

--- various people explain----

still not good enough

--- various people explain----

but still do not see your point

.........................repeat above ad nauseam

ha ..ha....ha....:bsmilie:

if one wants to talk about specs... to justify something then buy Erwin Putts' book or look up Leica's website - maybe got MTF charts there.
Read the detail and then compare with the performance of other brands.
Look at the measurable performance data.

oh! I forgot... even after there is proof, it is not good enough....
why so many thousand dollars difference in price for so little difference in specifications.....

ha... ha... ha......:bsmilie:

well, look at the Olympics. what is the difference between the 1st 100m runner and the one who came 2nd?
<0.01 sec

who remembers the runners who came 2nd?

at the highest level of performance, in order to just make a slight improvement, takes super human effort.

and the rewards that go with being Olympic gold medalist are much higher than being 2nd.

anyway no hard feelings.
just a bizarre thing. people not wanting to see the point.

PRICE got a lot more factors that decide it, then just specifications alone.

 

[LKSC]

A pre-announcement advertisement by Leica for the M8 in Amateur Photography magazine says it all:

"Emotion Returns to the act of Photography"

 

[shutterspeed]

The price may not be stunning for some. But, we're talking about specification vs price, all things constant. Does the price command the specification of the camera? If we're talking about technology goods, its only rational to pay a price for an equivalent specification. For analogy purpose, Sony may first produce the 1st walkman, but it needs to continue its RnD to improve their product line up. Its not likely they will keep producing walkmans basing on the argument that they are the first mover.

[/QUOTE]


You seem to equate quality with specification. Is that a good way to assess a product. A zoom lense from 28 - 1000 mm f 5.6 - 8, is not going to do the job of a decent 50 mm f2. Have you tried that M8 sufficiently and in real life to make a judgement that the M8 does not produce the quality expected of the price? I doubt it.

Since you like analogy, does it mean you won't get more satisfaction eating abalone than a plate of char kway teow because 'there is less' and you are 'paying more'? If you don't like abalone, insert [favourite expensive food].

 

[XXX Boy]

Leica camera &#22909;&#65281;&#65281;&#65281;

 

[irrelevance]

on another note, other than the "emotional value" - the leica M8 is in the same price bracket as top of the line canon/nikon products.

You can ask the exact same question - why pay almost 5000USD for a EOS 1Dmark 2, or a D2X (not FF either), when you can get a good camera for less than 1/5 that price? One key factor is the build quality. As others have noted, leicas just keep on ticking, where other cameras give up. The M8 has top of the line build quality that will weather most storms (if it's anything like the old M-series), which cannot be compared to a made in China EOS 400D.

Oh, and not to mention that having a leica is just....cool. There's something that draws people to it....some mystery....

Cheers
Sing

 

[Tetrode]

The M8 cannot be compared to the old M cameras of yore. Why?
It's digital and an electronic item. While the older M cameras were purely mechanical (with the exception of the M7).

It is a whole new ballgame. I don't see the M8 appreciating in value over but the contrary.

 

[Ansel]

The M8 cannot be compared to the old M cameras of yore. Why?
It's digital and an electronic item. While the older M cameras were purely mechanical (with the exception of the M7).

It is a whole new ballgame. I don't see the M8 appreciating in value over but the contrary.

It may appreciate slightly initially due to supply issue, but long term you are right, it may not appreciate, although I suspect it may hold it's value better than say a top end DSLR over the same period of time.