New 10.2MP Nikon Cam launching in 20 days, is Canon feeling the pressure?

[Watcher]

I tink this need to clarify a little bit more..

IIRC all the above sensor have the same "front-end" CCDs (the light capturing portion) the changes are made in the "back-end" processing such as the ADC (analogue-to-digital) portion.

Then again it's not easy and cost effective to have different designs for each brand, from redesigning any portion of the sensor to testing and validation to final "mold" production is very cost intensive.

From what I read, Nikon added some special patented requirements. Even in the era of the 6MP sensors, Nikon sensor had different RAW output from the others. Mind you, as customer of >1 million units, Nikon can customize some parts and from what Thom Hogan had mentioned, the actual circuitry as well. Nikon actually has expertise in designing circuits and sensors; their main line of business is in semi-con industry (surprise).

The 4 readout circuit from the chip will be different from the 2 (or is it 3) readout circuit on the A100. Similarly, the D80 can use a cheaper circuitry as there is less needs for such high end chip which would in turn increase the yield, reducing the cost.

 

[Watcher]

I find it quite laughable that many need a higher MP count camera is just for boasting rights. Many people here are more proud of their camera than of the photos that they take.

I also know a significant portion of CS-ers don't even shoot at full resolution of their current cameras..
Main reasons:
1) not enough memory card (duh!)
2) computer takes too long to load/edit/save a 6/8mp image
3) only using it for the web don't need so big..
Quite pitiful, really. Nevermind that ONLY thing many people do here with their photos is to resize to 0.5 MP (800x600) for web viewing..

even 5MP is an overkill for most people here..

I agree. Just like most who shoot 35mm film rarely print larger than 4Rs or S8Rs. However, that said, there are occasions when you wish you have more, just like I wish I have a large format (4x5 or 8x10:sweat: ) to capture *that* scene, especially for landscape.

For those wanting to do stock photography, the high MP the basic entry requirement. From what I heard, about 10MP is the minimum nowadays.

 

[Jia Wang]

Hahah... must thank the TS for reminding me... I've forgotten how many mp my 20D has already... Been happy shooting and happy with the output and happy with the prints... didn't bother about mp after deciding on getting the 20D :bsmilie: Wonder if I need anymore mp :bsmilie:

 

[TrailsofLife]

Hahah... must thank the TS for reminding me... I've forgotten how many mp my 20D has already... Been happy shooting and happy with the output and happy with the prints... didn't bother about mp after deciding on getting the 20D :bsmilie: Wonder if I need anymore mp :bsmilie:

20D is a very good camera. If not for 5D, I would have stick to it until now.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Dun bother with 30D. 20D should last you 5-8 year before next upgrade. 8MP is more than enough for 10R size.

Unless, you want full-frame.:bsmilie:

 

[sehsuan]

MP Count increment in %

2 -> 4 = 33.33%
4 -> 6 = 20%
6 -> 8 = 14.286%
8 -> 10 = 11.11%
10 -> 12 = 9.09%

6 -> 10 = 25%

As the MP count gets higher, each 2MP jump results in very marginal resolution advantage.

So if you are on 8MP camera, and have no absoloute need for a change to a meagre 2MP upgrade to 10MP, then keep it!
Similarly for those who still owns 6MP camera (300D, D70, etc)

It's good enough! Use it till you have absoloute need for a change before making a new purchase. In the mean time, continue to shoot more


PS: If my way of calculating the MP difference is flawed, I shall stand corrected

Uh, how did you calculate? If for my 10D (6mp) and 1D (4mp), I can only imagine that it's a [(6-4)/4] x 100% = 50%.

 

[Deadpoet]

Hahah... must thank the TS for reminding me... I've forgotten how many mp my 20D has already... Been happy shooting and happy with the output and happy with the prints... didn't bother about mp after deciding on getting the 20D :bsmilie: Wonder if I need anymore mp :bsmilie:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

get the right equipment for the right job.

 

[goering]

Uh, how did you calculate? If for my 10D (6mp) and 1D (4mp), I can only imagine that it's a [(6-4)/4] x 100% = 50%.

You are right but Rinaldi's figures refer to the % increase in the number of pixels in a single direction (either horizontally or vertically)

So in your case, the increase in TOTAL pixels from 4->6 MP is indeed 50% more, but this results in a 22% increase in pixels in a single direction

For the same 2 MP increase, lets say from 8 to 10 MP, this only results in a 11+% increase in pixels in a single direction

So what Rinaldi is trying to say is that as the MP count increses, any further increase in MP count becomes less significant and less perceivable

 

[TYM]

I find it quite laughable that many need a higher MP count camera is just for boasting rights. Many people here are more proud of their camera than of the photos that they take.

I also know a significant portion of CS-ers don't even shoot at full resolution of their current cameras..
Main reasons:
1) not enough memory card (duh!)
2) computer takes too long to load/edit/save a 6/8mp image
3) only using it for the web don't need so big..
Quite pitiful, really. Nevermind that ONLY thing many people do here with their photos is to resize to 0.5 MP (800x600) for web viewing..

even 5MP is an overkill for most people here..

Strange, where did you get the notion and whhich thread that people in CS are "boasting" about the MP on their cam? Could you quote? :dunno:

I wonldn't assume many people shoot not at their full resolution. I believe otherwise.
I know many people who used RAW for their photos, involved in their post-processing, and keeping them in their archives. And storing in in their maximum resolution and file size allows maximum flexibility in processing and for best output.
Strange, why buy a high megapixel camera and shoot at only half the resolution/ details or/and half the quality?

I strongly believe many SLR users do RAW for some of their serious work - landscapes, studio shots etc. DPP, PhaseOne, RSE, Bibble to name a few very popular RAW software widely used.
RAW files are usually found only in the high end models for serious users.
Well of cos, for normal miscellaneous everyday shoot, some people just shoot JPEG. But I believe the maximum capability of the cam is not utilised.

Many people buy higher end models not JUST for megapixels, its the features that came along with the cam eg in the 1D series.

 

[sehsuan]

ORR! OK OK. I was wondering how he derived his figures.... thanks for explaning!

 

[TYM]

Bleeah who cares? 5MP camera enough for most ppl. How big you gonna print? 24x36 inches, all your pics? Let them come out with 20MP cam, there is always gonna be competition from some other mfgr.

We don't need to to print to enjoy higher megapixels.
With higher megapixels, there are more details in the photos.
A high megapixel camera, eg landscapes photographers and some portrait photog can pull more details out the the photos.
When used with a good lens eg 16-35mm, the cam eg 1DS MKII can really pull amazing details out of the photos sometimes important to these photographers :light:

With a higher megapixels, there's often so much more flexibility in cropping and adjustment of composition during post-processing, any time later.

While some poeple may not need anything higher than 5mp, it does not make people with 16MP 1Ds MKII any unwise with their purchase of the cam or to print "36x24 poster-sized photos" to justify their use.

I agree that MP is NOT everything, but it sure really useful in many situations adn to many kinds of photographers

 

[sehsuan]

I agree that MP is NOT everything, but it sure really useful in many situations adn to many kinds of photographers

Umm... so the point is....? :dunno:

You've just successfully shot yourself in the foot, if you asked me.

 

[CYRN]

From what I read, Nikon added some special patented requirements. Even in the era of the 6MP sensors, Nikon sensor had different RAW output from the others. Mind you, as customer of >1 million units, Nikon can customize some parts and from what Thom Hogan had mentioned, the actual circuitry as well. Nikon actually has expertise in designing circuits and sensors; their main line of business is in semi-con industry (surprise).

The 4 readout circuit from the chip will be different from the 2 (or is it 3) readout circuit on the A100. Similarly, the D80 can use a cheaper circuitry as there is less needs for such high end chip which would in turn increase the yield, reducing the cost.

Agreed... Nikon have customised parts of the sensor's circuitry but not everything loh.

Anyway Nikon also have came up with their own CMOS sensor (can't remember what's the name they got for it tho). I wonder why aren't they using for all their cam's? :dunno:

Different readouts can have a lot of reason. It dosen't necessarily means that the design is different. But simply the output is taken from different available output pins.

BTW... I think you mistaken about Nikon semi-con thingy... Nikon iteself is more of an optics company and their main products are high-end industrial optics, but it's parent company (Mitsubushi IIRC) in involved in wide spectrum of products inclusive of semi-con.

 

[Watcher]

Different readouts can have a lot of reason. It dosen't necessarily means that the design is different. But simply the output is taken from different available output pins.

The design is not the same between even the one on D200 and the upcoming D80. The readouts is at per pixel (4 photosite) level. It is like saying that 4 lane road is the same as a 3 lane road. Yes, both are roads that carry vehicles, but they are not identical.

BTW... I think you mistaken about Nikon semi-con thingy... Nikon iteself is more of an optics company and their main products are high-end industrial optics, but it's parent company (Mitsubushi IIRC) in involved in wide spectrum of products inclusive of semi-con.

Ok slight misunderstanding and correction on my part. Yes, majority of their business is in direct optics. However 1/3 of their revenue is in IC and LCD steppers and another 7.9% is in instruments. They provide the steppers for other semi-con companies like, yes, Sony.

 

[CYRN]

We don't need to to print to enjoy higher megapixels.
With higher megapixels, there are more details in the photos.
A high megapixel camera, eg landscapes photographers and some portrait photog can pull more details out the the photos.
When used with a good lens eg 16-35mm, the cam eg 1DS MKII can really pull amazing details out of the photos sometimes important to these photographers :light:

With a higher megapixels, there's often so much more flexibility in cropping and adjustment of composition during post-processing, any time later.

While some poeple may not need anything higher than 5mp, it does not make people with 16MP 1Ds MKII any unwise with their purchase of the cam or to print "36x24 poster-sized photos" to justify their use.

I agree that MP is NOT everything, but it sure really useful in many situations adn to many kinds of photographers

Seriously... with a 10D and a 70-200 shooting models already can differentiate the individual eyelashes... what more do most photographer want?

With untrained eyes... most people I asked can't even tell a pic from CP5700 or 30D for that matter.

 

[CYRN]

The design is not the same between even the one on D200 and the upcoming D80. The readouts is at per pixel (4 photosite) level. It is like saying that 4 lane road is the same as a 3 lane road. Yes, both are roads that carry vehicles, but they are not identical.

Ok slight misunderstanding and correction on my part. Yes, majority of their business is in direct optics. However 1/3 of their revenue is in IC and LCD steppers and another 7.9% is in instruments. They provide the steppers for other semi-con companies like, yes, Sony.

Why not think of it as a 3lanes +1 shoulder vs 4 lanes. :bsmilie:

Aanyway... dun wan to drag this on.. you are right that they are different. Even in my original post already mention that they have different "backend" or ADC. But my stand is that the "front-end" CCD design is the same.

 

[TITANIUMLEE]

Hi what so good about Nikon. In the Nikon forum, there is one Nikon user D70s just get kill by humidity. My 300D will never say die in high humidity. For more info go n read what I wrote in the Nikon forum.

 

[vickuik]

A new 10.2 MP Nikon camera is launching soon, possibly to replace the much aged D70/s series, boasting being "more versatile, more control". That means the Nikoners will be happy that they have 10MP dslr in their current entry and mid range series(D200).

Konica-Minolta-ers will be glad that Sony alpha is coming (10MP).

Hmm, strange that Canon didnt follow suit with the recently released 30D. And when the 350D replacement is going to be released in August, it will not be more than 30D and hence will still be a 8.2MP, and of cos no weather seal.

Well, this makes the Nikon series suddenly look really attractive. I hope Canon will make the next replacement for 30D to be weather-sealed (they have to, D200), with Ultrasonic sensor dust cleaner (Olympus, Sony Alpha), in-built Sensor image stabiliser (Sony Alpha, nah prob not possible) to remain competitive.

Sony is the second largest camera market holder in US. With their vast capital, technological and marketing power and new push into the DSLR, we are going to see very interesting changes and surge in the dslr race soon. Thats good for us, we are going to get REALLY good cameras from every manufacturer soon, not just "minor-upgrade, now i give-u-spot-metering, give-u-1/3 ISO" type of camera.

Well since the 30D and 350D replacement will last another 1.5 years cycle, those Canon-ers looking to up their ante can only look at the 12MP 5D or the 5D replacement next year (3D?).

I believe Canon has it planned. Canon is prob thinking, "hey let them play the 10MP war, my trump card will be the next killer budget FF is released to push the boundaries of competition". Imagine when 3D is out and 5D drops to $3K +, what will become of the market for the mid range cameras eg D200 (close to $3K)? The 30D is priced and planned nicely at $2K +/-, reasonably below the 3D and 5D when they were released.

Canon have pushed the market with 300D first dslr below $2k many years ago, 20D a mid range semi-pro cam providing affordability with many "pro" features at $3K, 5D the first FF sensor cam below $5K (other than the 1D series). I am sure they will do it once again. No sweat, they must be thinking.

This is going to be real interesting for the 1 year ahead. Will the final push for affordable FF be upon us soon? I sure hope so. Thats the one trump card i wanna see.

I am Nikon user, but I am really impressed with yr analysis... very in-depth indeed... thumbup :thumbsup: for you..

 

[Watcher]

Hi what so good about Nikon. In the Nikon forum, there is one Nikon user D70s just get kill by humidity. My 300D will never say die in high humidity. For more info go n read what I wrote in the Nikon forum.

You mean this thread by a 1 post newbie?

There are thousands of people in SG here who has the D70/D70s for the past 3 years, no problem at all. Unless you can say that the problem is because of humidity (unlikely btw) and that NO 300D has a problem here... :bsmilie: You obviously revealed yourself to be sh*t stirrer and got that thread lock.

 

[F5user]

Hi what so good about Nikon. In the Nikon forum, there is one Nikon user D70s just get kill by humidity. My 300D will never say die in high humidity. For more info go n read what I wrote in the Nikon forum.

sad hor... people like that. :bsmilie:

 

[vickuik]

Hi what so good about Nikon. In the Nikon forum, there is one Nikon user D70s just get kill by humidity. My 300D will never say die in high humidity. For more info go n read what I wrote in the Nikon forum.

Sorry to OT your post..
I guess it will be good to limit offensive comment in this forum..
This forum users are all very friendly, so far the best forum i had visited compare to car forum and etc....

It will be very sad if someone else comeback and shoot back at yr comment.. don't think it is worth doing it..
Juz my personal and humble opinion.. :embrass: . Pse pse don't shoot me because of it.. :cry: