Looking for Commercial Photographers for Events

[tks]

I just returned from the Pacific School Games in Canberra, Australia and I was very impressed by the commercial photo service offered at the event, though not so much by the prices. I was wondering if any company or individual in Singapore offers the same or similar service.

Basically, when we have a swimming competition, we have to pay commercial photographers a fixed fee to take photos at the event. Usually, it is just a man carrying a DSLR. The results are often not very satisfactory. A lot of general photographs taken all over the place but nothing of value to the individual swimmers which parents cannot take using their own cameras. Reproduction and distribution of the photos is also a problem.

In Canberra, the commercial photographers were using cameras with impressive looking lens. At the swim meet, there were two, one on each side. Not sure about other events. At the end of the meet, the firm uploads all the photos taken onto their website for sale. The photos look very professional, the sort that parents like us are simply unable to take using our equipment and from our angle.

The website is www.winkipopmedia.com.au. Go to Pacific School Games > Swimming.

Basic considerations are:-

- The photography service must be provided F.O.C. or at minimum charge. The firm must make from the sale of the photos
- The photos must be readily available for purchase by parents e.g. on internet

 

[Dream Merchant]

It would be interesting to see how this develops.

What sort of 'reassurance' would photographers or firms taking up such a proposal have since they would probably be looking at very high equipment costs outlays for fast and long lenses as well as pro speced bodies, besides the immense number of hours shooting and doing backroom logistics?

 

[newtoforums]

Gee, looking at the pricing of the Aussie Photogs, they seem to be getting a better deal than local photogs. A$17.50 per 5x7/5R or 4pcs for A$60.00(A$15.00/pic).

Try this rate/priicing even in S$ without the conversion and most customers think you are trying to rip them off. S$15.00/5R?

They will tell you that they can get it printed for S$1.50

Most customers here only want it Cheap n Good but if can get it free online even better.

They even tell you since its online, then it should be Free yeah!

Anyway, most customers think the photogs are already very well paid and hence should provide the pics for free.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[kelvinkhoo]

Gee, looking at the pricing of the Aussie Photogs, they seem to be getting a better deal than local photogs. A$17.50 per 5x7/5R or 4pcs for A$60.00(A$15.00/pic).

Try this rate/priicing even in S$ without the conversion and most customers think you are trying to rip them off. S$15.00/5R?

They will tell you that they can get it printed for S$1.50

Most customers here only want it Cheap n Good but if can get it free online even better.

They even tell you since its online, then it should be Free yeah!

Anyway, most customers think the photogs are already very well paid and hence should provide the pics for free.

Just my 2 cents.

Frankly speaking that the Singaporean consumer do not know that we have a cost to run especially our equipment maintenance and the transport plus the electricity....... :cry:

 

[newtoforums]

Kelvin,

have to correct you on that...

Its Not that the consumers here Do Not know about our costs but rather they DO NOT WANT to know and hence expect local Photogs to be Cheap.:bsmilie:

 

[kelvinkhoo]

Kelvin,

have to correct you on that...

Its Not that the consumers here Do Not know about our costs but rather they DO NOT WANT to know and hence expect local Photogs to be Cheap.:bsmilie:

Thanks for the correction.. bro...... :sweatsm: :sweat:

 

[newtoforums]

Sorry but on another note, my Aussie Photog friend can make up to A$3000plus for an evening event.

If the debate about consumers here do not have moolah its all hogwash ya!

Consumers here have not been educated about costs to Photographers for a long time and hence, think Photography is so easy and comes so cheaply.

 

[newtoforums]

No problem there...

 

[kelvinkhoo]

Sorry but on another note, my Aussie Photog friend can make up to A$3000plus for an evening event.

If the debate about consumers here do not have moolah its all hogwash ya!

Consumers here have not been educated about costs to Photographers for a long time and hence, think Photography is so easy and comes so cheaply.

Agree.. need to educate the Singapore Consumer about it............. :thumbsup:

 

[kandinsky]

If you think about it, I think most Singaporeans would have experienced this sorta pricing system (paying for prints) when getting their class photos (Secondary/JC/Uni) photos shot at the end of the year...

If the photos presented are of high-quality/standard, doting parents these days will shell out the $$, given that it's not an everyday expense.

 

[Dream Merchant]

Given the Asian mind-set, no commercial or professional photographer would want to take up a suicide mission unless there are steps implemented, and the one main one being that absolutely NO cameras of any sort be allowed into any of the venues and NO photography of ANY sort is allowed except by official photographers.

Do you think that even organisers or any of the powers that be would help implement and enforce such measures?

If not, it's all wishful thinking.

 

[newtoforums]

Given the Asian mind-set, no commercial or professional photographer would want to take up a suicide mission unless there are steps implemented, and the one main one being that absolutely NO cameras of any sort be allowed into any of the venues and NO photography of ANY sort is allowed except by official photographers.

Do you think that even organisers or any of the powers that be would help implement and enforce such measures?

If not, it's all wishful thinking.

Agree with you on that, even in the 80's Organisers were against the implementation of such steps as proposed by me and eventually I quit as it didnt become viable to shoot Large scale Exhibitions if you didnt make at least a grand or more per day from the sales of Prints and Services. Certain Large shows/Exhibitions which take up 3 exhibition halls and more would require enough manpower and $$$$ to maintain for 4 day shows. Sometimes I have about 10 photogs on site for exhibitions with lots of side-shows and mini-events. Just think of the manpower costs plus film costs plus processing and printing costs plus food costs, etc...

Was it viable, you bet, I did about 5 straight years of Exhibition and Trade shows but eventually it wasnt anymore. :bigeyes:

 

[janshim]

Basically, when we have a swimming competition, we have to pay commercial photographers a fixed fee to take photos at the event. Usually, it is just a man carrying a DSLR. The results are often not very satisfactory. A lot of general photographs taken all over the place but nothing of value to the individual swimmers which parents cannot take using their own cameras. Reproduction and distribution of the photos is also a problem.

"Have to pay" is not the same as "willing to pay" but perhaps in the context, "we have had to pay" is more appropriate to reflect photography engagements that have not been satisfactorily delivered. One hired photographer with the expectation of delivering everything the client wants - is this realistic? Were the requirements/expectations even communicated to the photographer in the first place? Was the budget sufficient for the photographer to consider an assistant or was he choked by budget constraint to shoot alone?

In Canberra, the commercial photographers were using cameras with impressive looking lens. At the swim meet, there were two, one on each side. Not sure about other events. At the end of the meet, the firm uploads all the photos taken onto their website for sale. The photos look very professional, the sort that parents like us are simply unable to take using our equipment and from our angle.

I'm based in Brunei and have for the last few years handled many very demanding corporate events such as Standard Chartered Bank's IRON MAN, HSBC's Tri Xtreme Challenge and the 23rd East Asian Insurance Congress (5 days and 4 nights) and I applaud the direction the Brunei EAIC committee made to eliminate the on-site shoot-sort-sell approach. Reason being, they were looking after the interest of the photographers knowing very well from experience of events held elsewhere that it's a on-site printing is a money losing business (as far as Asia is concerned). Committee added that the photographers ended up with so many prints they cannot sell and that became an environmental hazard. These folks have earned my respect because for once photographers had not been sidelined.

The website is www.winkipopmedia.com.au. Go to Pacific School Games > Swimming.

Basic considerations are:-
- The photography service must be provided F.O.C. or at minimum charge. The firm must make from the sale of the photos
- The photos must be readily available for purchase by parents e.g. on internet

I am a professional photographer who shoots with "impressive looking" lenses to get the job done. Other than taking "very professional" images that "parents like us are simply unable to take using our equipment and from our angle" there is one exception, we will not agree to selling them online or selling them onsite—the math doesn't make sense.

Someone mentioned the Asian mentality. There's a lot of truth in this remark. Until we Asians appreciate and respect intellectual property rights and artistry in photographic images, the future doesn't look all that bright.

 

[tks]

There might be some confusion and even misunderstanding over what I have posted. Let me be the first to say that I believe photographers should be adequately paid for their professional services rendered. I am also aware that generally speaking, Singaporeans are not willing to pay for good service for many things, not just photography. But I also know that for some things, and as what kandisky said, dotting parents will gladly pay a small fortune for the sake of their kids.

I saw something in Australia that I liked. I was wondering if the same is done here, and if not, whether it is a commercially feasible thing to do here. In theory, this can be a win-win situation.

I don't know whether the event organiser paid the photographer. But about 4,000 athletes from 35 countries participated in the meet and the photographer took over 150,000 pictures. Many of us travelled all the way to Canberra to witness our kids represent Singapore at the event, many for their first time, and we will gladly pay for the photographs. Assuming that only one-tenth of the athletes (or their families) purchased the photos and that we took the cheapest package of A$65 for 5 digital copies, this works out to A$65 x 400 = A$26,000 postage not included. Of course, I am not sure if the maths will work out this way. It can be much less, or much more. I have no idea.

I mentioned my experience with current meets only to illustrate the point that it is not satisfactory. Obviously, the photographer was not given a sufficient budget. His aim, as I see it, is simply to record the event. Hence, he is paid only a few hundred dollars (and let me say this: by itself, I think it is not enough) and he is doing it alone. And the photos are all general shots that parents are unlikely to want to buy. Anyway, there were given away freely.

But if you look at the shots that the Australian photographer took, it is mainly shots of the individual swimmers in action. The sort that parents will willingly pay for. I did initially think the price of A$15 per pic was crazy, but after some time, I have got used to it. After all, I paid much, much more to travel there, and what's A$15 to remember it?

I saw some of the pictures that our local sports photographers took, and they are just as good. So, there is no question that this can be done here. But I feel that these pictures should be sold, and not given away. And in this way, the photographer can be paid more. But the revenue model and the way to publicise and sell the photos need to be reviewed.

Which brings me to the last issue on making the photos available for sale via internet. I do not know why there is opposition to this. If you are still thinking of printing them and putting them up on the notice board for sale, you can forget about the orders. That is so yesterday. It takes too much time and it almost always guarantees a lot of paper wastage. Most people are so tired after the event that they want to go home. And if the competitors are from overseas, or even from a different club, they are almost certainly not going to come back to view the photographs.

Putting the photos online is the only viable way to sell them these days. It is after the event that we start looking for photographs. Of course, you have to be smart. There are ways and means to ensure that your IP rights are protected e.g. posting only a small thumbnail.

I am not sure about other types of events, but in sporting meets, the sporting arena e.g. pool deck, is usually out of bounds. In the Australian meet, only the official photographer was allowed. Of course, parents could shoot for all they like from their spectator stands but the angle was not right. And most of us are not that good photographers anyway.

It may be that for most events, the one-time payment for photograph may still be most suitable. But for individual sports events like swimming meets, I think the way forward is to generate revenue from the sale of the exclusive photos. It can also be a combination of a lump sum payment just to cover costs plus revenue from the photos.

Singapore sports is surging ahead with Asian Youth Games in 2009 followed by the Youth Olympics in 2010. The Sports Hub will be completed very soon and there are exciting times ahead. From now till then, there are various meets. One of you may come up with something and succeed in it. Who knows?

 

[Dream Merchant]

I may have missed something, but I don't think the main concern is using the internet as a means of showcasing/displaying and soliciting/securing orders. A lot of people already are used to online trades both locally and internationally.

I think the main concern would be the actual viability of such a venture, given the scale and mind-sets involved.

OK, even if you put aide the mind-sets issues, and the fact that some form of hard reassurance need to be contracted to the company/companies involved, bear in mind that the initial outlays can be staggering. Also, infrastructures need to be built if you're looking at efficient workflows. I know it's a bit extreme, but look at the infrastructures used at the Beijing Olypmics.

Then you need to look at the entire TEAM, and not just a bunch of photographers with "impressive looking lenses". You're looking primarily at admin, support and logistics staff, as well as editors and DI techs. Even if you scale it down, you still need a full team and the infrastructures, besides that 5 or 6 figures in camera equipment.

A check around professionals will probably reveal that photography itself only accounts for 10%-20% of what makes a photographic venture successful.

But don't take my word for it, because I am not a businessman. :bsmilie:

Also, committees and powers that be are for sure going to want to cover themselves since National pride would be involved, and everything is gong to be scrutinized by an international community. It would take far more than just impressive looking lenses to win the tenders.

Selling prints would be of the least interest to them.

 

[genkro]

Agree.. need to educate the Singapore Consumer about it............. :thumbsup:

How can we educate the consumers about the correct photographers fee if there are photographers who willfully accept projects and gigs very cheap,,... and sometimes....FREE!!! :dunno:;(

With the influx of these new cheap DSLR's, a lot of hobbyists and amatures are distorting the market for the Pro Photogs out there, and this is not good to see for they are taking away the main source of livelihood of these Pro Photogs.:nono:

 

[aloyyolaaloy]

How can we educate the consumers about the correct photographers fee if there are photographers who willfully accept projects and gigs very cheap,,... and sometimes....FREE!!! :dunno:;(

With the influx of these new cheap DSLR's, a lot of hobbyists and amatures are distorting the market for the Pro Photogs out there, and this is not good to see for they are taking away the main source of livelihood of these Pro Photogs.:nono:

i don't think they're actually distorting the market.. you pay peanuts to get monkeys.. that all ;p

 

[catchlights]

you are proposing to photographers generate income for selling the prints to the parents, this idea only will work if.....

#1, these photographers are the official and exclusive photographers, no other people are allowed to take photos during the event.
#2, there is not other source that the parents can get image from, not even from the organizer, not even after a long period.
#3, these photographers has the ownership and copyrights of all the images, they also provide publicity photos to the press.
#4, these photographers has the rights to set the selling price of the prints, to ensure able to recover expenses and still have decent profit..

basically in local, not all parents willing to buy images of their children, if you are into school photography you will have better "picture" of how things work here..

 

[Cheesecake]

some studios that cover school graduation events are already doing this, selling additional images of the event via internet, where the participants can log into the website and choose to buy any photos that they like which is on top of the single free 4R photo of the student receiving the certificate/degree.


i remember not buying any extra photo from the event as all of us students gathered around and took photos among ourselves.

 

[catchlights]

some studios that cover school graduation events are already doing this, selling additional images of the event via internet, where the participants can log into the website and choose to buy any photos that they like which is on top of the single free 4R photo of the student receiving the certificate/degree.


i remember not buying any extra photo from the event as all of us students gathered around and took photos among ourselves.

I remember a few years ago, we did a on the spot printing to a school event.

a group of students after took their photo, discussing just buy one group photo, than will scan and print it themself, give the copies to the rest of people RIGHT in front of us, btw, the parents of the school are either very rich or very famous.