LFC II - You'll never Walk Alone

[nemesis32]

Owen 158 goals / 297 apperances / 0.53 goals per game
Fowler 171 / 330 / 0.52
Collymore 35 / 81 / 0.43
Baros 27 / 106 / 0.25
Heskey 60 / 223 / 0.269

There you go... Heskey have the 2nd lowest scoring record.

I am convinced that if Baros is not injured so much and played many matches as subs or being subbed, he would have a higher scoring ratios. This effectively make Heskey our worse performing strikers. (those who play more than 100 games or more than 2 seasons).

 

[nemesis32]

Owen 158 goals / 297 apperances / 0.53 goals per game
Fowler 171 / 330 / 0.52
Collymore 35 / 81 / 0.43
Baros 27 / 106 / 0.25
Heskey 60 / 223 / 0.269

If you do an adjusted scoring averages... you will see even more clearly.

Full match - 90 mins
Half match - started match but subbed at 70 mins
Sub - 20 mins

Owen 158 goals / 297 apperances/ 0.53 goals per game
297 matches - F 220, H 50, S 27 = 23,840mins
Goals/90 mins = 0.596

Fowler 171 / 330 / 0.52
330 matches - F 200, H 70, S 60 = 24,100mins
Goals/90 mins = 0.639

Collymore 35 / 81 / 0.43
81 matches - F 60, H 10, S 11 = 6,320mins
Goals/90 mins = 0.498

Baros 27 / 106 / 0.25
106 matches - F 40, H 40, S 26 = 6,920mins
Goals/90 mins = 0.351

Heskey 60 / 223 / 0.269
223 matches - F 150, H 50, S 23 = 17,460mins
Goals/90 mins = 0.309

There you go.. as what most liverpool fans would observed and agrees..
1. Folwer - Goals/90 mins = 0.639
GOD is still GOD. Fowler does most of his damages in his early years. He must have about 10 hattricks or more. Who can forget his hat trick against Arsenal in 10 mins?

2. Owen - Goals/90 mins = 0.596
Owen is not as lethal as Fowler but still ranks highly. Again, he scores a lot of goals in his pre-injury days. Subsequently, he prob suffers a bit.

3. Collymore - Goals/90 mins = 0.498
Not surprisingly (to me at least), collymore is a very good striker provided he put his mind to it. Most of the goals comes in the 1st season.

4. Baros - Goals/90 mins = 0.351
Again, not surprising since we have been lamenting about his poor finishes in liverpool's shirt. However, i think Baros also suffers as he made very few full matches and was injured thus takes longer time for him to get into form. He shd be at least 0.4 average by my estimate if fully fit.

5. Heskey - Goals/90 mins = 0.309
Worse of the lot. Sure, he play mostly as secondary striker but you can argue the same abt the other strikers at one stage or another. Fowler was secondary striker to both Rush in his early years as well as to Heskey and Owen before he left for Leeds. Similarly, Owen had a short stint as secondary striker when he breakthru when Fowler is GOD. Baros has never really been the main striker until this season as well.

So i guess the verdict is loud and clear?

 

[MichaelLee]

So i guess the verdict is loud and clear?

the verdict is baised and do not stand on the same platform.

Owen, Fowler, Baros all play as a main striker.

Have u seen Owen ask to play for LM ?

heskey did. The instruction given to Owen and to heskey is different. Due to that..the chances to score are very different.

I tot I ask u to compare 2nd striker vs 2nd striker.

Something like Liverpool main striker - Owen vs Arsenal main striker Henry.

 

[MichaelLee]

Statistics is skewed by other factors such as no. of apperances...

Like i have said before... over 4 seasons, Heskey scores about 15 goals/season... according to your stats. But does he scores 15 or more per season? I dun think so. Likelihood if you examine the stats will show he scores maybe close to 20 goals in 1st season as well as the season when we won 5 cups (reason: we play more matches).

If you compare Smith, it's not really appropriate. Everyone knows that Smith's strength is not in his scoring ability. His strength is in his hunger and passion as well as his determination. IIRC, he scored almost 1 goal/match for several matchs until Rooney joins Man U and he play less. (again, more appearance= more goals). Heck, even you compare Rooney and Heskey, Heskey may score more goals than Rooney but who is a better player/Striker? Alot of other factors must be considered.

When Heskey plays at Liverpool, he's main role is a secondary striker (except when Owen is injured). He played at least 80% of matches, prob more if i count sub. appearances. As such, it's not unreasonable to expect him to score 15 goals each season (not average... average is for stats only and not meaningful to me..)

He play about 50-60 matchs per season and so the ratio is only about 0.25-0.3 goals per match.. Not exactly very high for league.

Also, i feel he's a failure because i think he can easily be a 20+goals/season striker if he impose himselves more. You saw how many times he has tumbled under tackles, some very soft. Come on, with his size, you expect referee to believe he will fall over so easily?

u dun believe in stats..ok..no point to argue...Stats is fact and a record. If u dun based on stats to start the debate...then debate until turtle die also has no conclusion.

and i think because u dun believe in stats..that's why u get them wrong too. Heskey did score more than 15 goals a season.

When u mention Smith...it is ok for him not scoring..since his strength is in his hunger and passion as well as his determination.

But when judeg on Heskey, it is not OK for him not scoring...although he also has the strength for head the ball for Owen, assist in goal, hold the ball up...and be the target man to free space for teamate.

Do u see the difference of the criteria when u judge on the players ?

 

[MichaelLee]

agree that can't look at stats alone. Looking at the away he played... everytime he receives the ball... were you expecting him to score? or lose the ball? or crumble to the ground?

if u don;t look at stats..tell me why Chelsea is 2004/2005 EPL champion...and Henry is 2004/2005 EPL top scorer..?

they simply get them from lucky draw ?

Chelsea is champion because they have 95 points. It is a cumulative stats of points that he team won after 38 matches.

Arsenal is top scored because he had scored 25 EPL goals.

If u dun based on stats..I will argue Moreintes is the best EPL striker in 2004/2005...

Norwich is the best team in EPL..

 

[Cheesecake]

take it EASY!!!!

LIVERPOOL signed Heskey to be a LEFT WINGER ala Ryan Giggs!!!! :bsmilie:


the goals he scored are a bonus!! go LIVERPOOL!!!!

yes, i do know that signing players are an investment which could go haywire or, a masterstroke. akin to buying lenses IMHO. but signing Peter Crouch @ £7million is... a huge risk IMO.



PSSST... anyone saw the Argentina vs. Brazil game?

Juan Roman Riquelme, man, wat a player! :thumbsup:

 

[MichaelLee]

There you go... Heskey have the 2nd lowest scoring record.

why not compare heksey with ronaldo ? Shevo ? ruud?

this is the most naive and baised analysis

Compared Liverpool 2nd striker to Chelsea 2nd striker, to Newcastle 2nd striker, to MU 2nd striker, to Arsenal 2nd striker.

I know u can;t give me more than 1 name who is better in scoring goals than heskey.

thus..u turn the direction to ..compare Heskey with the 1st striker...then use number of goals/number of min play to justify your point...

ask your self a question..how many times Ruud and Owen played as LM ?

 

[MichaelLee]

but signing Peter Crouch @ £7million is... a huge risk IMO.

U know what, i seriously doubt that Rafa will buy Crouch...... it may be one
of his pawn move to get to other players, like saying he wants to buy David
Villa or Bojinov but the one that he really wanted was Morientes ....

I think he wants Kuyt of Holland....

 

[Cheesecake]

i'm a sympathiser for Heskey. i felt that his stay in Liverpool is punctuated with many 'what ifs'. no doubt, he's a very powerfully built forward and he's pretty fast too.

if he plays more regularly as an out and out striker with the current team that we have, he would've bag alot more goals!


anyway, the one striker whom i really felt is the best has to be Stan Collymore. Robbie Fowler's a close second but a better finisher.

Stan's really skilful and packs a mean shot. really wonder what would have happened if he can pack up his emotions and sort out his short-fuse brain. still remember the first game he started for Liverpool, he scored a brace against Sheffield Wednesday at Anfield with a breath-taking display of expertly executed long range goal. :thumbsup:

and, yes, his last min winner against Kevin Keegan's Newcastle United at Anfield. 4-3 to LIVERPOOL!!!!!!! :thumbsup:


Liverpool gives me lotsa beautiful memories of my teenage years...

 

[nemesis32]

the verdict is baised and do not stand on the same platform.

Owen, Fowler, Baros all play as a main striker.

Have u seen Owen ask to play for LM ?

heskey did. The instruction given to Owen and to heskey is different. Due to that..the chances to score are very different.

I tot I ask u to compare 2nd striker vs 2nd striker.

Something like Liverpool main striker - Owen vs Arsenal main striker Henry.

Yes.. i agree that Heskey played as 2nd striker most of the time and occasionally as LM (not always).

Who else in the league can play so many matches and still be labelled as Secondary striker i wondered...

Man U - 1st striker RVR - secondary is Smith, rooney, saha?
So last time - Andy cole is 1st, Dwight Yorke and solkjaer is 2nd?

Arsenal - Henry is 1st striker? Even when Bergkamp is in his prime or when Henry just join? I recall Henry played almost the whole of 1st season as Winger as well....

Newcastle - would you consider Bellamy as secondary striker?

Chelsea- gudjonsen? or even Drogba? tough to decide also...

I can try and find and compare... no harm trying..

 

[MichaelLee]

Liverpool gives me lotsa beautiful memories of my teenage years...

and the most beautiful memory happened on 25-may-2005 !!!!!!

 

[nemesis32]

U know what, i seriously doubt that Rafa will buy Crouch...... it may be one
of his pawn move to get to other players, like saying he wants to buy David
Villa or Bojinov but the one that he really wanted was Morientes ....

I think he wants Kuyt of Holland....

Yes.. maybe it's just a plot to get Kuyt... but i do like Crouch and i think he will be good for liverpool.

 

[MichaelLee]

Who else in the league can play so many matches and still be labelled as Secondary striker i wondered...

u are right...Gudjonsen is Chelsea 2nd striker for i guess at least 3 season. look at his number of goal per season. and Craig Bellamy and alan smith (for leeds and now for MU).

try to compare heskey with

1)MU-rooney
2) MU smith
3)MU saha
4) newcatle bellamy (while he was sitll playing, ie last season)
5) chelsea Gudjonsen
6) arsenal -reyes
7) or even MU -forlan
8) Mu - scholes (when he was asked to play as supporting striker)
etc...

 

[MichaelLee]

Yes.. maybe it's just a plot to get Kuyt... but i do like Crouch and i think he will be good for liverpool.

ok..let side bet if crouch sign for liverpool. I bet in 2 season i total..he can not score more than 30 goals.

heskey first 2 season in liverpool had scored 36 goals.

 

[nemesis32]

ok..let side bet if crouch sign for liverpool. I bet in 2 season i total..he can not score more than 30 goals.

heskey first 2 season in liverpool had scored 36 goals.

EPL top scorers

1 Henry 25
2 Johnson 21
3 Pires 14
4 Defoe 13
5 Hasselbaink 13
6 Lampard 13
7 Yakubu 13
8 Cahill 12
9 Cole 12
10 Crouch 12
11 Gudjohnsen 12
12 Earnshaw 11
13 Keane 11
14 Rooney 11
15 Drogba 10
16 Fowler 10
17 Heskey 10
18 Ljungberg 10
19 Phillips 10
20 Wright-Phillips 10

 

[nemesis32]

ok..let side bet if crouch sign for liverpool. I bet in 2 season i total..he can not score more than 30 goals.

heskey first 2 season in liverpool had scored 36 goals.

As provided by your stats... Heskey scored 36 goals in 1st 2 seasons and 60 in total, means he scored 18, 18, 12, 12 in 4 seasons right? we average out the 1st 2 seasons and last 2 seasons. So i am right to say he did not score more than 15 goals a season. Just like if it's an exam, 15 is pass, he pass 1st 2 years and fail last 2. right?

If i am not wrong, 1st 2 seasons he played is also the 2 years whereby we performed the best in his time at liverpool. We won the 5 cups during that stretch and thus he would have played more matches.Also, he did not play as LM during that 2 years. Mostly as 1st or 2nd choice strikers (if Owen plays).

If you look at the EPL top scorer, Heskey got 10 goals and he played almost all matches compared with less matches for players like Earnshaw, Hassebaink, Keane (mostly subs also), midfielders like Lampard, Cahill, Pires,Ljungberg, SWP also outscored him, Fowler, Hassebaink, Cole, 3 of the older and supposedly slower strikers also outscore or equal him.

Crouch, Philips, Earnshaw also outscore or equal him eevnthough they were relegation teams...

What does all this point to?

 

[nemesis32]

http://www.footballanorak.com/player_leagues.html

Check out the stats... Based on EPL games, Heskey's scoring is 0.292, Crouch is 0.596. To put things in perspective, Heskey scored 9 goals in 33 starts or 2778 mins
Crouch scored 12 goals (incl 1 penalty) in 18 starts or 1813 mins...

 

[nemesis32]

Who is better than Crouch based on Stats? Henry (0.796) Earnshaw (0.606) and you can aruge that Earnshaw had 1 more penalty and a game where he scored a hat-trick which skewed this stats...

Who is worse than Heskey? Boa Morte, winger and the dribbler (0.286) and only barely, Solano (0.267), another winger/midfielder that shoots only from distance, Damian Francis, another winger on a losing/relegated team

 

[MichaelLee]

. So i am right to say he did not score more than 15 goals a season.

aiyoh.brother..his 1st season with Liverpool..Heskey scored 22 goals.

22 is more than 15.

btw...60 goals in 4 season. Average 15 season.

U still have not any another 2nd striker who could beat this number...

Dun get me number of goal/min of play...or compared against Owen, Rush , Rolnando, Shevo...etc..

Average 15 goals for 4 season during 2000-2004 (around that time).

Remember , 2nd striker for the club.

 

[MichaelLee]

As provided by your stats... Heskey scored 36 goals in 1st 2 seasons and 60 in total, means he scored 18, 18, 12, 12 in 4 seasons right? we average out the 1st 2 seasons and last 2 seasons. So i am right to say he did not score more than 15 goals a season. Just like if it's an exam, 15 is pass, he pass 1st 2 years and fail last 2. right?


Crouch, Philips, Earnshaw also outscore or equal him eevnthough they were relegation teams...

if 15 is pass and 12 is fail. Then Alan Smith fail every season since he played in EPL.