[inkjet] Is 6 ink channels printers a big deal?


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Part II:
As for the statement "sRGB has been eclipsed by most printers", I said no such thing. In fact, I agree that most consumer desktop inkjet printers print about sRGB range of colors.

Note that I had said that sRGB is 1) a small gamut color space 2) most popularly used in computers, while you had said that "colour spectrum captured by a digital camera in sRGB or Adobe RGB is very wide, and definitely more than what inkjet printers can reproduce". That is not correct as 1) sRGB is by itself, not large (defined to be the lowest common standard :sweat: ) 2) AdobeRGB is not very wide. There are many other color spaces like Wide Gamut RGB, Prophoto which are dramatically larger. Also, there are inkjets (desktop or otherwise) that can produce printouts with larger gamut than sRGB.

Next, many printer companies try to expand the gamut that their printer can print. The almost 2 year old Epson 2100 has a bigger gamut than sRGB. Refer to Fig 2-9, Page 77 of "Real World Color Management" by Bruce Frasier, et el. Do read this book to understand this better. As the book said, the 2100's gamut does not exceed even sheetfed press in every dimension, but it does produce a bigger gamut in some "directions". I can only imagine what the newer printers like R800 (out in EU) and Epson 4000 will be like.

Yes, I've read the URL you provided. He said "Sure parts of the printers space is outside the reach of both sRGB and Adobe RGB, but with proper color management we can easily remap the captured data and let it flow into the “protrusion” of the output space. " That is the issue here. If the printer can print without remapping (ie replaced by a color that is inside the gamut), isn't it better? Note that the graph on the left is AdobeRGB vs Epson 2100 while the one on the right is sRGB vs PG4500. He did not try AdobeRGB vs PG4500 as it will show that the AdobeRGB will extend past its printable range significantly. It may not exceed it in every direction, but as long as it exceed in some, by definition, the printer's output does exceed the gamut. BTW, he has poor grammar that detracts from his statements. Americans :rolleyes: .

Now, whether you consider printers like Epson 2100 or the R800 as a desktop printer (the R800 is an A4 printer btw), it is another issue. Although most are within sRGB, but as the competition increases, I'm very sure that within a few years, the desktop printers will be larger than sRGB.

He (Will Crockett) has already had an agenda in mind when he wrote the article: convince the reader that sRGB is good for most lay people. It is true, to a certain extent, that working in AdobeRGB take more care and effort. But I would not recommend his photos ever be used in print media.
 

For those who are lost, some links here for your more confusion :p
  • http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1014&message=7288469
  • http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1014&message=7291175
  • http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1014&message=7296665
  • http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1014&message=7406559

A 3-D gamut comparison at http://www.iccview.de/
 

Wah! Super crash course on colour / ink management......... :sweat:
 

Hi Watcher,

I was wondering about your explanation about UCR/GCR. According to my Print Publish Guide by Adobe, black (key) is used to replace ink where CYM are used in equal amount to create grey or black. It would seem like a one-to-one (or theorectically one-to-three) replacement. How would this lead to an increase in colour gamut via UCR and GCR then?

Off-topic: the day that printer companies try to pull jargons like UCR/GCR over consumers is the day when they can't fool us with simplier terms like "colour space" any more! :)

As for the part about me saying that printer companies are lying or anything like that (I wouldn't want a lawsuit on my hands... been saving hard for a DSLR!). I just said "overzealous marketing" attributed to the conception that printers have exceeded sRGB.

Again, coming back to the point of sRGB being described as wide, I still insist that my comment is taken in context of the second part of my sentence (i.e. compared to the gamut of inkjet printers). But I don't think we can reach a conclusion on our difference in point-of-view, unless we can show the charts of the gamuts of various printers vs sRGB (and trusting those are not remapped gamuts). While I will not engage in debate about American grammar, I think it's extremely misleading to say that printer gamut has exceeded sRGB or Adobe RGB just because it does so on certain colours.

I'm certainly looking forward to a new generation of colour printers that will truly expand the colour range of our printed images. In fact, I'm eagerly looking forward to the new Canon i990 with seven inks (additional red) that has just been launched in the US and Europe. It has received rave reviews in Japan, and it should do as well in US and Europe (knowing how critical the Japs can be). Now... the problem is... would it be launched in Singapore at all? Sigh...
 

Neo said:
Hi Watcher,

I was wondering about your explanation about UCR/GCR. According to my Print Publish Guide by Adobe, black (key) is used to replace ink where CYM are used in equal amount to create grey or black. It would seem like a one-to-one (or theorectically one-to-three) replacement. How would this lead to an increase in colour gamut via UCR and GCR then?

Off-topic: the day that printer companies try to pull jargons like UCR/GCR over consumers is the day when they can't fool us with simplier terms like "colour space" any more! :)
Well, the UCR algo can be less aggressive with a better dithering spread. This will allow the printer to print darker colors but have to watch out for the ink threshhold. With smaller drops, they can even do better.

These jargons came from the old press technology, and not from these inkjet companies like Epson nor Canon. They are industry standard terms and not meant for consumers... :bsmilie:
Neo said:
As for the part about me saying that printer companies are lying or anything like that (I wouldn't want a lawsuit on my hands... been saving hard for a DSLR!). I just said "overzealous marketing" attributed to the conception that printers have exceeded sRGB.
Do you expect them to understate their product? :D

Neo said:
Again, coming back to the point of sRGB being described as wide, I still insist that my comment is taken in context of the second part of my sentence (i.e. compared to the gamut of inkjet printers). But I don't think we can reach a conclusion on our difference in point-of-view, unless we can show the charts of the gamuts of various printers vs sRGB (and trusting those are not remapped gamuts). While I will not engage in debate about American grammar, I think it's extremely misleading to say that printer gamut has exceeded sRGB or Adobe RGB just because it does so on certain colours.
Sigh, no one seems to want to visit the links that I had posted, especially in this forum... :(

Why didn't you try the iccview link yourself? Ask and you shall receive! :p Attached are the comparision obtained from my el-cheapo Epson 830 using the profile that came with the printer. The colored volume is sRGB, the mesh volume is the profile for the 830.

sRGBvs830-1.png


sRGBvs830-2.png


As you can see, there are parts where the sRGB exist that the printer cannot print, that is predominately in the blue-green ends, while the printer can print more than sRGB has defined for the red-yellow end. That is considered as exceed as there are substantial protrusions out of sRGB.

Whether it exceeds or not, that is up to you to define. However, the problem is that there are parts that exceeds, others that is within. So how would you say is better? No one definitive answer from here. I would fall back to the ol' "it depends" ;)

The image below is AdobeRGB vs Epson 830. Here, Adobe RGB almost totally covers the 830 except for the lighter parts of yellow-white sections and the dark red sections. I wouldn't say that Epson 830 exceeds ARGB as the volume outside ARGB is quite small compared to the volume within...

aRGBvs830.png


Try out the Epson 2100 vs sRGB and ARGB and you can even upload your own printer's profile to try it out!



Neo said:
I'm certainly looking forward to a new generation of colour printers that will truly expand the colour range of our printed images. In fact, I'm eagerly looking forward to the new Canon i990 with seven inks (additional red) that has just been launched in the US and Europe. It has received rave reviews in Japan, and it should do as well in US and Europe (knowing how critical the Japs can be). Now... the problem is... would it be launched in Singapore at all? Sigh...
My advice, avoid Canon. The other users find that their print fades after a short time...
 

So Epson is the way to go since Canon inks fade? But I dun like Epson cos their printheads are on the printer and not on the cartridge? I probably won't use the printer extensively (expensive!) so won't it always clog? Epson unfortunately has given me this impression over time.

I mean even with the thinktank versions of their printers, Canon's print heads can still be replaced. I dun have to send my printer in to get the printhead cleared. Does Epson implement the same cartridge carriage system?
 

TME said:
So Epson is the way to go since Canon inks fade? But I dun like Epson cos their printheads are on the printer and not on the cartridge? I probably won't use the printer extensively (expensive!) so won't it always clog? Epson unfortunately has given me this impression over time.

I mean even with the thinktank versions of their printers, Canon's print heads can still be replaced. I dun have to send my printer in to get the printhead cleared. Does Epson implement the same cartridge carriage system?
I agree that it is so troublesome that each of the main printer company has a major shortfall. Canon: no lasting power, Epson: cloggs, HP: Too expensive (print head on cartridges! :eek: ). If you replace the print head on Canon, it is not going to be cheap as well. If it is still under warranty, send the Epson printer back. However, I heard that weekly turning on and off reduces the clogging significantly.

The actual cost of running is not that much, actually. After printing for 7 months weekly 1-2 4R + 2 A4 per month, the number of color carts used = 3 (+1 more that c/w printer), black = 1 (+1 more that c/w printer)
 

I just received a reply from a Japanese engineer from Canon Inc. Based on his reply, I gathered that Canon printers have exceeded sRGB already (but not Adobe RGB yet). So together with Watcher's chart, I stand corrected.

But I strongly disagree with Watcher's advice to avoid Canon. If we are going to boycott brands based on some user feedback, we might as well add in Epson for the clogged printhead, or HP for the expnsive inks. Out of the hundreds of prints I've churned out from my Canon S9000, only a handful exhibited slight fading. Perhaps I'm lucky, but there's always the theory that happy cutsomers don't talk, but the unhappy customers shout the loudest. So I'm sure there're many happy Canon users that are printing away gleefully. :)

I don't want to sound like a brand zealot (and I'm not... I recognize what strengths of other brands too). It's just a personal preference... I do photo prints and design layouts, and I like my printer to be fast (the Canon printers are speed demons) and flawless (no banding or clogging). When my clients want glossy prints, I deliver in glossy (so that's why pigment inks are not suitable). I also love the fact my Canon printers come with on-site warranty, and that I can replace my printhead myself in a jiffy (1 minute in fact!) when it finally wears out. Dump Canon? Not a chance... :)
 

I'm a predominantly Epson user and yet I'll say this. All dye-based printers will fade on particular papers regardless of Epson, Canon or HP.

Certain Canon ink/paper combinations may be a little worse off, but even Epson 870,1200 and HP7150 prints can fade in as quickly as 2 weeks when exposed in a "fade conducive" environment. Thus I find the statement "avoid canon due to fading" rather misleading as it suggests that others are fade resistant which is clearly not so.

Only pigment printers are truly resistant to fading. For dye based owners encountering fade issues, either frame your prints or switch to a less glossy surface.(Hi-gloss surfaces tend to be more susceptible to gas fading)
 

Neo said:
I just received a reply from a Japanese engineer from Canon Inc. Based on his reply, I gathered that Canon printers have exceeded sRGB already (but not Adobe RGB yet). So together with Watcher's chart, I stand corrected.

But I strongly disagree with Watcher's advice to avoid Canon. If we are going to boycott brands based on some user feedback, we might as well add in Epson for the clogged printhead, or HP for the expnsive inks. Out of the hundreds of prints I've churned out from my Canon S9000, only a handful exhibited slight fading. Perhaps I'm lucky, but there's always the theory that happy cutsomers don't talk, but the unhappy customers shout the loudest. So I'm sure there're many happy Canon users that are printing away gleefully. :)

I don't want to sound like a brand zealot (and I'm not... I recognize what strengths of other brands too). It's just a personal preference... I do photo prints and design layouts, and I like my printer to be fast (the Canon printers are speed demons) and flawless (no banding or clogging). When my clients want glossy prints, I deliver in glossy (so that's why pigment inks are not suitable). I also love the fact my Canon printers come with on-site warranty, and that I can replace my printhead myself in a jiffy (1 minute in fact!) when it finally wears out. Dump Canon? Not a chance... :)
In fact, with the link to ICCView site which is independent, you can verify your colorspace vs the standard ones like sRGB, ARGB and Wide Gamut. Don't need anyone from any company to tell you, you can investigate and confirm it yourself. Just take the profile for your printer, upload it and compare. Answer in 20 seconds.

If you're happy with Canon, I have no comments ;) TME was just asking for opinions and that was mine.
 

TME said:
So Epson is the way to go since Canon inks fade? But I dun like Epson cos their printheads are on the printer and not on the cartridge? I probably won't use the printer extensively (expensive!) so won't it always clog? Epson unfortunately has given me this impression over time.

I mean even with the thinktank versions of their printers, Canon's print heads can still be replaced. I dun have to send my printer in to get the printhead cleared. Does Epson implement the same cartridge carriage system?

The way to go is to get a Fuji Frontier Machine. :D

/sorry, couldn't resist, it's meant to be a pun. ;)
 

Well thanks for the input.

I dun see any comments on the other 2 major brands in the consumer printer market - HP and Lexmark.

How do they stack up against Epson and Canon? In terms of print quality, speed and consumables costs?

HP may be expensive but if u dun print much, then it might be a viable option? I always thought HP's PhotoRet tech was pretty good....

What about Lexmark? It's not popular in S'pore but I like their printers cos they are cheap and good (I use a Z52). But the cartridges are expensive as well. Not too sure about the print quality though. I've never printed using the colour cartridge....

Any comments? Thanks!
 

I bought a Canon i905 when it was first launched last year and I am happy to report that NOT ONE of my prints have faded even slightly and better still, the printer has not even clogged once even though I don't print that often.
 

Hi TME,

The new HP printers are not bad, based on the sample prints I saw. But I felt that the colours seem exagerrated, but there seems to be a lack of gradation (big blotchy patches of super-saturated colours) in their sample prints. There're also visible dots upon close examination. All in all, HP printers have improved leaps and bounds over the last 3 years, but uh... I still feel they have a bit of catch up in terms of photo quality, with Canon and Epson.

Personally, Lexmark ranks the lowest on my list. It is really the extreme of the philosophy "cheapest printer, most expensive ink". Anyone who thinks that HP inks are expensive should take a look at Lexmark ink prices. What's more, the quality is not as good as the 3 major brands, IMHO of course.

Stick with either Canon or Epson. You won't go wrong.
 

Ooooo. Thanks Neo for the heads up on the Lexmark inks :thumbsup:

HP is good and at the upcoming IT show (there is one soon, right?), you can always take a pic and bring it to all three vendors to demo on their own top A4 to see the output :D .
 

Neo said:
Hi TME,

The new HP printers are not bad, based on the sample prints I saw. But I felt that the colours seem exagerrated, but there seems to be a lack of gradation (big blotchy patches of super-saturated colours) in their sample prints. There're also visible dots upon close examination. All in all, HP printers have improved leaps and bounds over the last 3 years, but uh... I still feel they have a bit of catch up in terms of photo quality, with Canon and Epson.

Personally, Lexmark ranks the lowest on my list. It is really the extreme of the philosophy "cheapest printer, most expensive ink". Anyone who thinks that HP inks are expensive should take a look at Lexmark ink prices. What's more, the quality is not as good as the 3 major brands, IMHO of course.

Stick with either Canon or Epson. You won't go wrong.

I see....... I mainly print text at the moment but I'm getting a DSLR in the not-too-distant future (The Monilta Dynax 7 Digital is out!!!), and so I'm looking at my options now and monitoring the technology of the big 4 companies. Thanks for your input!
 

tomcat said:
I bought a Canon i905 when it was first launched last year and I am happy to report that NOT ONE of my prints have faded even slightly and better still, the printer has not even clogged once even though I don't print that often.

same for my s800 / s820 (s800 with my parents). No fading problems here.

I buy my printers after they become obsolete and save some money that way :)

Got the S820 for $270 (since it comes with 6 free and full ink cartridges worth $90 (the cheaper Epsons give you half empty cartridges, at least epson 750 & 640 did) that was a steal.

If you have a pure sRGB workflow, you're still going to get better quality than say sending a slide to Konota for a Fuji Frontier print. And several years back, that was kind of the 'state of the art' for an amateur.

If your photography hasn't reached a certain standard, why obsess about colourspace, gamut etc? sRGB will be fine.

I wonder if those people who constantly harp on about the inferiority of sRGB are really fantastic photographers work 'at the limit' and need to maximise quality in every aspect or whether they are just 'technicians' who like to use photoshop.

In any event, given that clubsnap is a forum of mainly 'amateurs', advice should take this into account. I would say stick with sRGB to achieve consistency and work on improving photographic technique.
 

Hi TME,

Watcher has just offered a good suggestion... bring a couple of carefully shot (and edited) digital pix in a CD-R or CF card, to the next big show (I think it's IT Show in March?). The big boys will be at the show, so let them print out a copy of the image and compare which version you like best. The proof is in the mango pudding... :bsmilie:
 

I'll be gunning for the end of the year IT show. It'll be closer to the launch date of the DSLR. Thanks! Good suggestion!
 

I'll be gunning for the end of the year IT show. It'll be closer to the launch date of the DSLR. Thanks! Good suggestion!
 

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